PSA: Most Law Schools a path to debt-ridden poverty

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Ugh. Let me try to clarify some things here.

Firstly, I just graduated law school and have about $125k in debt (combined, w/under grad). I went to a good school and got mediocre grades. I got a government job w/ decent pay pending bar passage.

Fact of the matter is that my loans are consolidated income-sensitive repayment plan with a whole $0/month due prior to you know, making an income. Then, then is a fairly complicated formula which results on a repayment of about $650 on $70000 or so income (but the formula is based on adjusted gross income so it varies for each person).

So all in all, not really buried in debt ridden poverty.

If you had bother to have taken a business math class you'd realize that interest on your loan is still building even though you aren't making any payments on it at the moment.

Most of my loans don't accrue. I accrued about $2000 in interest over 3 years. Oddly enough, I had that figured out without the need of a business math compatriot.

Specifically what type of loans did you take out to pay for law school (stafford, gradPLUS, perkins, etc.)?

First 3 semesters were mixed Stafford and Perkins. Last 2 where mixed with the aforementioned and gradplus, last semester was paid for w/o loans.

Were the staffords subsidized or unsubsidized? How did you qualify for the Perkins? Did you just fill out a FAFSA or what?

Yes, I just did the FAFSA AFAIK. The only other financial aid document I remember doing was for a school based internal grant.

Some of the stafford was subsidized and some was not, I don't recall what the break down was. I had to go digging for the paper work since I already filled out my consolidation papers.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: CptObvious
IMO, the ABA is a joke and a legalized racket. Despite the growing oversupply of law grads, they continue to stamp accreditations on T4 schools, who in turn convince liberal arts grads who can't find a job to drop up to $150K on a worthless piece of paper.

I can imagine the movie Idiocracy coming true one day when you can get your law degree from Costco.

funny how the AMA is a racket by doing the opposite, restrict the number of medical schools so the supply of doctors grow slowly while demand for medicine skyrockets.

Both are evil in my book

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: senseamp
What do you call 1000 lawyers in debt-ridden poverty?

Class of 2007

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: ed21x

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Special K
Let me make sure I understand the loan situation correctly:

Right now, a law student's only loan options are:

1. Federal Stafford Loan
2. GradPLUS loan

Federal Stafford loans are available to anyone who fills out a FAFSA, but the amount of loans that are subsidized depends on your need, which is demonstrated by filling out a FAFSA. The interest rate on both is 6.8% fixed. Also, interest on the unsubsidized loans begins to accrue immediately. You can defer payments until after graduation, but then the unpaid interest is just added to the principal of the loan, as with a neg-AM mortgage.

GradPLUS loans can then be used to borrow up to the entire cost of the education, so a law student who did not receive enough in Stafford loans would be forced to make up the difference with GradPLUS loans. These carry a 8.5% interest rate, and interest begins to accrue immediately when the loan is taken out. You can defer the interest payments on these as well, but it will be added to the principal.

Given that most law students are not bringing in a ton of cash while they are in law school, assuming they have a job to begin with, that means they are carrying debt that will compound at 6.8% and/or 8.5% interest for 1-3 years. It seems to me that you would need to make a shit-ton of money after graduation to come out ahead. Don't forget the opportunity costs of not going to law school.

Unless there are some special loans for law students that have a super-low interest rate and government-paid interest, I can see how law school could become a very difficult financial hole to dig yourself of.

I have actually been considering patent law in the future, but I would need to perform a very detailed analysis to take into account borrowed money interest rates, opportunity costs, and the like. I suspect that even with a degree from a tier-1 school, it would take me another several years after law school to finally come out ahead, relative to the case where I just continued to work/advance in my current position and invest my money.

It all depends. I know several people starting at Mega Firms in LA and SF, all starting @ 160k. Tier 1 school + 15% percentile and your set - maybe even more wiggle room for a patent attorney because they are rare. W/ 160K, you should be able to knock out that loan in 2-3 years. Maybe even 1 year if you manage your $ well since the 160K does not include bonuses.

Yeah, I am seriously kicking around the idea, it's just I've never been in debt that much before, so I'm naturally hesitant to commit to such a large financial investment. However, keep in mind that 100% of the students at a tier one school probably believe before entering that they will graduate in the top 10% of the class, yet 90% of them will be disappointed. I wonder how the pay scales down when you are in a top-tier school, but not in the top 10%.

Depends on the city. In Los Angeles, most everyone I know who has already secured a job is starting at 70k. 95% will have jobs within 9 months of graduation w/median [private sector] @ 85k

Which is pretty sad considering that the mean engineer graduating with only a BS from Berkeley is making a 75k a year, and an MS will add 10-15k to that number. Law school oversaturation has done far too much damage to the profession as every university is rushing to start one due to the low initial investment (no $$ needed to open labs and dedicated facilities). The same can partly be said about doctors because medical schools are just so plentiful, and we are inundated with DOs and FMGs. I doubt either of those professions have really seen increases in mean wages in the last 20 or so years.

Even accountants make that by year 4 without the debt.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Ronstang
Higher education only costs so much because they make so many loans available and people are so willing to go into debt. It is just like health care insurance. The money keeps being provided so they charge what they want. Take all that loan money away and make people pay for it out of pocket and the price would drop....because attendance would drop sharply. I sure am glad I went to college when I did back in the 80s. I paid for it all myself and graduated both undergrad and grad school with zero debt.

But who's fault is that? Nobody forced the student to take the loan(s).

He's saying it's creating artificial demand.

It's like 20:1 leverage oil speculators get.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: sygyzy
The OP speaks the truth. All of you guys claiming you know someone who makes X 100K a year are either liars or you are talking about the HUGE exceptions to the rule.

My sister is a lawyer she makes x 100K a year now, getting close to 2x
she?s also married to an orthopedic surgeon

and shes going to make me an uncle again

Wow, one example. You have certainly disproved the OP. What does the fact that she is married to a surgeon have to do with the rest of the thread?

Sounds like a brag post to me.

Indians love to brag

 

[MaxDepth]

DENNY CRANE!

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: AccruedExpenditure

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Ugh. Let me try to clarify some things here.

Firstly, I just graduated law school and have about $125k in debt (combined, w/under grad). I went to a good school and got mediocre grades. I got a government job w/ decent pay pending bar passage.

Fact of the matter is that my loans are consolidated income-sensitive repayment plan with a whole $0/month due prior to you know, making an income. Then, then is a fairly complicated formula which results on a repayment of about $650 on $70000 or so income (but the formula is based on adjusted gross income so it varies for each person).

So all in all, not really buried in debt ridden poverty.

No offense and I know it's not the point you're making but if you went to law school to come out and just make 70k a year I don't think it was worth it
-AE

70K for a 9-5 job + general business related expenses (gas at 50 cents a mile + cell phone + etc...) + 10k increase every year (automatic) up to a 125k.

That is the complete picture. I think its worth it.

Edit: also forgot to mention that there is a loan repayment program that forgives the balance of the loan after 120 payments (10 years) and if you work for the government or public interest.

Completely worth it IMO. Nice hours and nice compensation with guaranteed increases.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Even accountants make that by year 4 without the debt.

If you like working with numbers, be an accountant. If you like working with law, be a lawyer. Its not a matter of who makes what in how many years for some people. Sometimes, its just a matter what you enjoy doing.

And I would also wager that the growth potential in a lot higher in law than it is in accounting.

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to say everyone should go to law school. That's quit the opposite of my point. I'm only trying to add my personal observations to the conversation.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: AccruedExpenditure

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Ugh. Let me try to clarify some things here.

Firstly, I just graduated law school and have about $125k in debt (combined, w/under grad). I went to a good school and got mediocre grades. I got a government job w/ decent pay pending bar passage.

Fact of the matter is that my loans are consolidated income-sensitive repayment plan with a whole $0/month due prior to you know, making an income. Then, then is a fairly complicated formula which results on a repayment of about $650 on $70000 or so income (but the formula is based on adjusted gross income so it varies for each person).

So all in all, not really buried in debt ridden poverty.

No offense and I know it's not the point you're making but if you went to law school to come out and just make 70k a year I don't think it was worth it
-AE

70K for a 9-5 job + general business related expenses (gas at 50 cents a mile + cell phone + etc...) + 10k increase every year (automatic) up to a 125k.

That is the complete picture. I think its worth it.

Edit: also forgot to mention that there is a loan repayment program that forgives the balance of the loan after 120 payments (10 years) and if you work for the government or public interest.

Completely worth it IMO. Nice hours and nice compensation with guaranteed increases.

9-5 my ass

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: AccruedExpenditure

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Ugh. Let me try to clarify some things here.

Firstly, I just graduated law school and have about $125k in debt (combined, w/under grad). I went to a good school and got mediocre grades. I got a government job w/ decent pay pending bar passage.

Fact of the matter is that my loans are consolidated income-sensitive repayment plan with a whole $0/month due prior to you know, making an income. Then, then is a fairly complicated formula which results on a repayment of about $650 on $70000 or so income (but the formula is based on adjusted gross income so it varies for each person).

So all in all, not really buried in debt ridden poverty.

No offense and I know it's not the point you're making but if you went to law school to come out and just make 70k a year I don't think it was worth it
-AE

70K for a 9-5 job + general business related expenses (gas at 50 cents a mile + cell phone + etc...) + 10k increase every year (automatic) up to a 125k.

That is the complete picture. I think its worth it.

Edit: also forgot to mention that there is a loan repayment program that forgives the balance of the loan after 120 payments (10 years) and if you work for the government or public interest.

Completely worth it IMO. Nice hours and nice compensation with guaranteed increases.

9-5 my ass

Ummmm, its a government job. The office doors close at 5.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: AccruedExpenditure

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Ugh. Let me try to clarify some things here.

Firstly, I just graduated law school and have about $125k in debt (combined, w/under grad). I went to a good school and got mediocre grades. I got a government job w/ decent pay pending bar passage.

Fact of the matter is that my loans are consolidated income-sensitive repayment plan with a whole $0/month due prior to you know, making an income. Then, then is a fairly complicated formula which results on a repayment of about $650 on $70000 or so income (but the formula is based on adjusted gross income so it varies for each person).

So all in all, not really buried in debt ridden poverty.

No offense and I know it's not the point you're making but if you went to law school to come out and just make 70k a year I don't think it was worth it
-AE

70K for a 9-5 job + general business related expenses (gas at 50 cents a mile + cell phone + etc...) + 10k increase every year (automatic) up to a 125k.

That is the complete picture. I think its worth it.

Edit: also forgot to mention that there is a loan repayment program that forgives the balance of the loan after 120 payments (10 years) and if you work for the government or public interest.

Completely worth it IMO. Nice hours and nice compensation with guaranteed increases.

9-5 my ass

Ummmm, its a government job. The office doors close at 5.

i take that back.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: AndrewR
My law school debt stands at about $300/month for the next 27 years or so (plus an extra $130/month for the next 4 years or until I pay off my Perkins loan). When I first started repaying my loans, it was about $1300/month before consolidation and paying off my private loans. Go to a state law school and save money! I could have attended UGA for about $3k/year or so. Wish I had!

But do you make some ridiculous hourly wage now? Just curious.

No, I don't work as an attorney. I went into the military (prior commitment) then entered the civil service performing essentially the same type of work but for the Army instead of the Air Force. I have no desire to ever practice law or work in a legal field. Which is a big reason why I wish I had gone to UGA instead of Vanderbilt!

 

[rh71]

Do all gov't jobs have guaranteed salary increases every year?

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: rh71
Do all gov't jobs have guaranteed salary increases every year?

I thought they went by defined pay grades - e.g. GS-8, GS-12, etc.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
if you are a lawyer aka you passed the bar and you can't manage to make over 6 figuers after 2-3 years your a fucking idiot. End of story.

Obviously you have little to no experience with the legal industry.

I love it when the experts weigh in hehe

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: rh71
Do all gov't jobs have guaranteed salary increases every year?

I think it varies from county to county. All LEGAL county jobs in my county do (prosecutor, public defender, city attorney). They have 5 grades: Start, Level II (1 year experience), Level III (2 years experience), level III (3 years experience), Level IV (5 years experience OR a supervisor of the unit). Once you hit Level IV, you can only go up in "steps" and not levels. I think there are something like 20 or steps. So the max pay would be Level IV step 20, which is guaranteed in 5 years and X months (5 to reach level IV and X months to reach step 20) OR when you become the supervisor of the unit, whichever comes first (usually the 5 and change years comes before supervisor status).

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
Ugh. Let me try to clarify some things here.

Firstly, I just graduated law school and have about $125k in debt (combined, w/under grad). I went to a good school and got mediocre grades. I got a government job w/ decent pay pending bar passage.

Fact of the matter is that my loans are consolidated income-sensitive repayment plan with a whole $0/month due prior to you know, making an income. Then, then is a fairly complicated formula which results on a repayment of about $650 on $70000 or so income (but the formula is based on adjusted gross income so it varies for each person).

So all in all, not really buried in debt ridden poverty.

If you had bother to have taken a business math class you'd realize that interest on your loan is still building even though you aren't making any payments on it at the moment.

Most of my loans don't accrue. I accrued about $2000 in interest over 3 years. Oddly enough, I had that figured out without the need of a business math compatriot.

Specifically what type of loans did you take out to pay for law school (stafford, gradPLUS, perkins, etc.)?

First 3 semesters were mixed Stafford and Perkins. Last 2 where mixed with the aforementioned and gradplus, last semester was paid for w/o loans.

Were the staffords subsidized or unsubsidized? How did you qualify for the Perkins? Did you just fill out a FAFSA or what?

Yes, I just did the FAFSA AFAIK. The only other financial aid document I remember doing was for a school based internal grant.

Some of the stafford was subsidized and some was not, I don't recall what the break down was. I had to go digging for the paper work since I already filled out my consolidation papers.

So did you use the loans to live off of (i.e. rent, food, gas, etc.) in addition to paying for tuition, books, fees, etc?

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
I know about 10 people I went to college with who went to law school. All of them now are making more than 200K a year.

It's pretty odd 10 people shared their salaries with you that you just went to college with.

Most of them are friends and acquaintances so they dont mind sharing what they make, what's the big deal?

My brother in law made partner last year, he's supposedly making a half million this year, but he works a ridiculous amount of hours. Graduated from Yale about ten years ago, not sure where in the class he was.

 

[SampSon]

Practicing law is not the path to salvation that so many think is it.
Same with medicine.

 

[AccruedExpenditure]

Originally posted by: SampSon
Practicing law is not the path to salvation that so many think is it.
Same with medicine.

Exactly. The lawyers I know, including the vaunted 'Corporate Lawyers' have some of the most tedious/unappreciated jobs and work the worst hours of any of my colleagues/peer group.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Most of them are friends and acquaintances so they dont mind sharing what they make, what's the big deal?

You are looking at things from the perspective of people who got into big firms. This is a very small % of the law graduates in the workforce.

Most of my fellow graduates of Temple Law are either working in government, small firms, or document review.

What people need to know upfront is that graduates of local law schools will likely work in small firms or as solos. They need business skills and business savvy. Sadly, most people in law school seem averse to numbers and are terrible with managing money.

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: Special K

So did you use the loans to live off of (i.e. rent, food, gas, etc.) in addition to paying for tuition, books, fees, etc?

He mentioned he used GradPlus loans earlier. Most students use the GradPlus loans to pay for whatever remaining costs there are for attending school. For example, the law school I'm heading out to this Fall has tuition set at $38,000. My Stafford loan only covers about $20,000. So, I now have $18,000 of tuition to pay plus living, food, books, transportation, etc. to pay for. The school is required to estimate all of these numbers for students. The total annual cost for attending the school is $60,000 when everything is said and done. That means I'll have to get a GradPlus loan for the remaining $22,000 of costs.

 

[Playmaker]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Even accountants make that by year 4 without the debt.

If you like working with numbers, be an accountant. If you like working with law, be a lawyer. Its not a matter of who makes what in how many years for some people. Sometimes, its just a matter what you enjoy doing.

And I would also wager that the growth potential in a lot higher in law than it is in accounting.

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to say everyone should go to law school. That's quit the opposite of my point. I'm only trying to add my personal observations to the conversation.

Well, speaking strictly of top end growth potential, accounting can end at the c-level, making even a WLRK partner look poor in the most extreme examples.

Law is definitely a very risky move if you're paying for it yourself outside of the top 20.

 

[shopbruin]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
My law school debt stands at about $300/month for the next 27 years or so (plus an extra $130/month for the next 4 years or until I pay off my Perkins loan). When I first started repaying my loans, it was about $1300/month before consolidation and paying off my private loans. Go to a state law school and save money! I could have attended UGA for about $3k/year or so. Wish I had!

The University of California... bah. UCLA charged 25k last year in tuition alone, and will be over 30k within the next three years. Boalt (UC Berkeley law) will be over 40k.

Go regents... when you need to raise tuition and fees, they always hit the professional schools up first, and hardest.

It costs nearly as much to go to UCLA as it does some of the lesser private schools nearby.