PS2 vs XBox, very interesting read of who has the better hardware

[ElFenix]

<< Why does the hardware matter at all? If one machine has more cool and fun games its the best not which can do the more GFLOPs. >>

 

[Chad]

From Anands article, to set the story straight, here is EXACTLY what the PS2 CPU is...

"The idea of the EE being a 128-bit processor came about because it features 128-bit general purpose and SIMD registers as well as dual 64-bit integer units."

Which does not really necesarrily make the CPU "128 bits". It makes it two 64 bit integer units with 128 bit registers.

 

[mchammer187]

<< Yeah, just like I said... a 64 bit CPU with 128 bit registers.

No good game announced? Are you a real gamer? My goodness, that's an absurd statement, and it makes me wonder if you're some kind of fanboy. Anyways, coming soon on Xbox (not all exclusive, but who cares... they are coming). Titles in bold are possible standout titles.

Sega GT 2002
Outlaw Golf
Morrowind
World Series 2k2
Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath Of Cortex
Buffy The Vampire Slayer
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon
Pro Race Driver
F1 2002
Spiderman
Grand Prix 4
Colin McRae Rally 3
Burnout
Splashdown
Hunter: The Reckoning
Unreal Championship
House of the Dead 3
Gauntlet Dark Legacy
Mike Tyson Heavyweight Boxing
Commandos 2: Men of Courage

Coming later...

Star Wars: KOTOR
Mech Assault
Tekki
Panzer Dragoon
Midtown Madness 3
Shenmue 2
Enclave
Duality
Soul Calibur 2
eRacer
Kakuto Chojin
Galleon
Project Ego
Yager
Outlaw Volleyball
Ridge Racer 6
Road to the World Cup
Street Hoops
TransWorld Snowboarding
Battlefield 1942
Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance
Chase
Lord of the Rings
Lord of the Rings: FOTH (different)
Turok: Evolution
Crazy Taxi 3
The Thing
TransWorld Skateboarding
Jurassic Park X
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Crimson Skies
Dino Crisis 3
Doom III (questionable, not confirmed)
College Basketball 2K2
Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance
NBA Hoopz 2003
Vexx
Another Oddworld (title yet to be announced, but it's a new game)
Moto GP
Spyro The Dragon
Phantasy Star Online v2
Xbox online network
Ready 2 Rumble (new)
All of the SEGA Sports game ONLINE
All of the Microsoft Sports games ONLINE


All of these announced and confirmed (other than Doom III) but this is not of course everything, just some I could think of. Of course after E3 we will have a clearer picture of what else is to come, and the indication is that MS has saved it's big bullets for E3 this year. Also, sources close to MS have stated they have 18 new inhouse original games (first party) that will be announced at E3. >>



IMO i only see only 5 titles if that that i would even consider buying Soul Calibur, Phantasy Star, Dino Crisis and i know all 3 of those are cross platform

the only competition x-box has provided the PS2/ GC is Sports titles and cross platform titles

i dont see how these can compete with even the current PS2 library

mgs 2, FFX, GT 3, VF 4 , devil may cry all exclusive as of this moment and already out

or GC's
metroid prime, zelda, castlevania (i hope), Resident Evil exclusives

i see metroid prime being the GAME of 2k2

Metroid Prime,

 

[Chad]

"IMO i only see only 5 titles if that that i would even consider buying Soul Calibur, Phantasy Star, Dino Crisis and i know all 3 of those are cross platform"

Well that's your opinion. Certainly you discount way to many possible killer titles. Also, you "know" incorrectly. Dino Crisis 3 is indeed and Xbox exclusive.

"the only competition x-box has provided the PS2/ GC is Sports titles and cross platform titles"

Uhm, Halo, Rallisport Challenge, Dead or Alive 3, Oddworld, would argue with that. And I don't see anything on GC that can compete with Xbox right now... of course, my opinion only.

"i dont see how these can compete with even the current PS2 library "

It can't really. Not right now, but one could argue that the Xbox lineup at this point in it's life demolishes the PS2's at the same time in it's life, and well, GC's not even close here.

"mgs 2, FFX, GT 3, VF 4 , devil may cry all exclusive as of this moment and already out"

All very good games for sure. PS2 is a great gaming system to own right now... you'll get no arguments from me here.

"or GC's metroid prime, zelda, castlevania (i hope), Resident Evil exclusives"

None of which are out and none of which look "spectacular" to me. Metroid went to first person (bleh), zelda went to celda (bargh) catlevania has in no way been announced (keep dreaming buddy) and resident evil, well... been there, done that already. And there is not enought "at least good" titles in GC's forseeable future to even compete with what's been announced for Xbox already, let alone ofter E3. GC's game lineup is skimpy and paultry by comparison to say the least.

"i see metroid prime being the GAME of 2k2"

I see you like to smoke crack. 😀

 

[Pariah]

Chad, none of those games are so called killer apps. Gran Turismo, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Mario , Metroid , Zelda, all these series will sell consoles by name recognition alone, regardless of what other crap is put out on the console. And more importantly they are system exclusives, which means if you want them you have to buy that console. XBox has no such titles. All of the better titles on the XBox are available on other consoles, giving no compelling reason to pick it. If a gamer likes Mario or MGS, do you honestly think that the XBox is superior enough to the others to plunk down $300 for the console to get Soul Caliber 2 which is available on the other 2 as well? I wouldn't call a single PC port a standout title let alone a good one. Can you name one PC game that was any good on a console let alone as good as the PC version?

 

[christoph83]

And more importantly they are system exclusives, which means if you want them you have to buy that console. XBox has no such titles. All of the better titles on the XBox are available on other consoles, giving no compelling reason to pick it.

Uh huh.... Xbox had 2 exclusive games to other console right at their launch. Halo and Dead or Alive 3. Maybe you should read a bit more into those games Chad listed. There are many more exclusive games in that list.

Anyway if you want the real specs on all consoles go here.

 

[Chad]

Pariah, I can see now clearly, you are being biased here. Indeed, more than half of those announced titles I listed are exclusives. You pretend to predict the future on "popular" games, but history has proven you're in a lost cause. Grand Theft Auto 3 is a title I will point to for evidence of this. Certainly it was expected to sell "well" perhaps even great. But to outsell MGS 2, FFX, GT3 and every other PS2 game was not "expected".

A great game is a great game, a mediocre game is a mediocre game. Great games sometimes come out of the woodwork... otherwise we would all be playing Pong and the like. You cannot possible sit here and expect me to believe what you think you know. I've listed quite a few titles, and quite a few of them have the potential to be "killer". Who knows, I don't, you don't... nobody can say for sure. Everything you have said so far is pure speculation on your part.

I for one can see at least 10 of those titles I've listed to be AAA games. Will they sell systems? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm not one to sit here and say they won't for sure, like you are. The sad part about the GameCube is this... it has like 4 exclusive titles announced (that may or may not even make it this year) that have the "potential" to be killer titles... and even if we ASSUME they will be great, what is there after that? Better hope you like those 4 genres also, otherwise your in an even worse situation. I've listed more exclusive titles in that Xbox list than I care to even go back and count (most are exclusives) so what does that say? Well, for one, it says most 3rd parties are siding up with the Xbox over the GameCube... which speaks VOLUMES! Also, we forget all of the inhouse Xbox games... so many it boggles the mind, and are we to think ALL of these titles are going to "suck"? Yeah, in a GameCube fanboys dreams.

There's an old saying that still holds true. "Throw enough mud on a wall and some of it is going to stick." Sure, some of the games I listed may end up being crap, but I'll bet dollars to dimes that some of them are going to be great. To idley sit and discount so many potentially killer titles is easy enough, I could do the same for any other platform. But much like the PS2, the Xbox's title list is long and strong. Halo 2 is soon to be announced (pre E3) among 18 new MS titles at E3. Not to mention all of the "Secret" games being held out for E3.

P.S. I thought we were talking about PS2 vs. Xbox hardware here? The Xbox's hardware is most definately better, but PS2 has absolutely NOTHING to be ashamed about. It's older technology, and now that developers are coming to grips with it, we are finally seeing the great games we all expected in the beginning.

 

[Rectalfier]

I have an Xbox, and I don't regret making the decision. When making my purchase, none of the PS2 games really interested me much except for Grand Theft Auto 3, but that is coming out on Xbox anyways. Halo was and is a game that can make someone buy the Xbox. I waited patiently for Halo to come out on PC, but to my horror, it was bought my Microsoft, and became an Xbox only title. I wanted to play that game soo bad, that I actually bought an Xbox on the second day of release. After completing Halo I thought, hmmm, that purchase was a little rash. But then, I found out Halo multiplayer can be played online for free through Gamespy. Since I have four controllers, I have played many multiplayer games over the internet with three other buddies of mine. To say the least, it is a ground breaking experience. Imagine you and three of your drunk buddies teaming up against the poor fodder on the internet.

Since Halo, I have sold Project Gotham, and Dead or Alive, although good games, I didn't have time to sit and master them. I have since bought NHL 2002, which is available on PC, but it is much more fun in the living room, and playing with a control pad. Recently, I have bought Rallisport Challenge, which is a fantastic driving game, and Jet Set Radio Future, which is quite addictive.

Really, there is no point arguing hardware or amount of good titles, there is not point arguing at all. The only thing that matters is what "specific game" or "games" an individual would personally like to play, and what level of graphic realism is good enough for them.

 

[Mengis]

The UK based magazine Edge who go to the four corners of the earth in pursuit of games (hey we've only just got the Xbox and GC isn't out till May 3rd FFS!!!) is probably the most respected games mag in the country and is the choice read of all the UK games developers themselves so it's opinions hold a lot of sway and are respected as fair, honest and above all independent from format bias. Like the majority of multi-format mags they were in no doubt that the Xbox has the best line up of launch titles of any console ever, including the GC. It can't be argued then that 'there's only Halo'. But the battle has only just begun and we're going to have to wait at least years before anyone can say which console has the best games as at this stage any claim either way is ridiculous and without foundation due to the development time of A-list games.

But this thread isn't about games, the topic was who's hardware is best? It's an interesting one and it's almost impossible to answer. Why? Well because the consoles all use completely different hardware bases. The Xbox is based on the PC, cisc, windows, nvidia, etc. The PS2 is based on supercomputing technology and vector processing (I could be making this bit up but I think it's similar to tech used in Hitachi's supercomputers), incredibly powerful but until recently not seen much outside of Japan and ironically shares similarities in concept with the N64! And then there's the GC (i thought I'd bring it in just because it shows the full facet of computing hardware) that is based on Power risc architecture as seen in IBM's RS9000 UNIX systems and Apple's desktops.

That's 3 consoles, all vying for the same audience but taking there foundations from the different sides of the IT industry (maybe i'm just sad for finding that interesting!) How can you compare a supercomputer to a personal computer or a mid-range Unix box? You can't unless of course you're talking about the end result, the actual real world ability of programmers to make the box do something. There's no doubting the awesome performance of the EE as the most complex processor in a desktop machine anywhere. It is a collosus but what I could never understand is how they could couple it up to such a weedy front end (I'm on about graphics here). Despite it's superior performance the PS2 was never able to outshine the Dreamcast when put in a head to head for graphical flare and compared to the NV2A in the Xbox it doesn't stand a chance.

That is where the glory lies in a games console and it always has been. It's not what's under the hood but the end user feeling that shows a console's true performance and the Xbox has the better graphics and also lets not forget sound thanks to the MCP and integrated GPU into the Northbridge of the N'vidia chipset running the machine which is perfectly balanced with the performance of the PIII and system bandwidth, that's the key 'balance'.

The EE simply costs too much to manufacture because of its complexity which means Sony has to skimp on the peripheral components in order to sell the console at a reasonable price wihtout making a loss that is unrecoupable in games sales. 4MB in a graphics card is laughable. No matter how you cut it textures take up space, say one texture using a 32 bit colour pallete (real colour) is 256 pixels by 256 pixels (As would be seen in todays cutting edge gaming) That one texture would take up 2Mb of space (Be careful to remember the difference between bits and bytes here!) Which means that the PS2 would only be able to hold 16 different textures in its memory! Think of 16 different objects in a scene (roof, floor, walls, table) and now think how pathetic a total that makes. And the PS2 has no way of back buffering those textures in main memory. What isn't being stored locally has to come from the DVD which only has a very restrictive data bandwidth relatively speaking, there's no partionable system RAM and certainly no bufferable hard drive to fall back on when space gets short. When you cosider that and the fact that the DVD drive in the Xbox is considerably faster than the one in the PS2 it all stacks up against the machine.

No amount of vertex manipulation is going to make up for throwing about glorified wire frame models. That might be suitable for graphics artists but not for computer games.

The PS2 is underpowered and Sony knows it. When discussing die shrinks of the machines processors Sony revealed that with the associated cost savings it would be possible to increase the integrated graphics cache on the graphics synthesiser from the original 4Mb to a much more respectable 16Mb. The extra texture cache would enable for the PS2 to stand on much better terms with the Xbox and then considerations of AI and physics might come into the equation, but who wants brilliantly intelligent computer controlled players with the most realistic Newtonian physics model ever conceived when the graphics look like the original elite? (I may be exaggerating a little here)

And all this discussion is missing one vital point games designers have to ask. How am I going to use it? Well the simple answer to that is through API's. The development of the GameCube has focused heavily around two things, 1/ The control pad and 2/ It must be the easiest format for a coder to programme and do what they want to do on it. The GC has fabulous API's and is a joy to work on, as is the Xbox which uses DirectX and also versions of PC hardware familiar to coders everywhere whether they're from a Linux, Windows, BSD or whatever background. They know the Xbox format and they know how to programme for it and make them special. How many programmers, on the other hand, have programmed for supercomputers? Worked directly with them? Not many that's for sure. When the PS2 came out developers went 'WTF?' The VU code that is so important to getting the most from the machine was a completely new venture for most coders new to the PS2 and only now, over 2 years since PS2 development kits were first sent out are the developers truely able to say ' yeah i think i know what I'm doing here' with any real conviction or honesty as demonstrated by the lack of any really gob-smacking titles until the release of Gran Turismo 3.

The Xbox has been blighted by comparisons to the PC from all quaters, but if you're a programmer and you're making a living on the PC and you want to go into console games for the first time with your revolutionary product that's going to change the way we play games (and the PC is unarguably the best place to find creativity and originality of thought as it's free of the developer restrictions imposed by all console manufacturers, for all those that don't know it was almost impossible to get a licence from Nintendo to publish games on the N64), what format are you going to choose? Xbox with it's familiar friendly API's or PS2 with it's phenominal potential for intricate and diverse game dynamics but only after 18 months experience (,... or of course there's always GameCube, friendliest of all consoles, focused strategy, power above PS2 but slightly lower than Xbox, but just try getting that licence ;-) ) ?

 

[fluxquantum]

i like xbox better but i am not a console guy. my pc is a much better device to play games on.

 

[FishTankX]

Mengis:After the PS2's CPU shrinks down to .13 micron the whole works will be *very* cheap to manufacture.

Like, 35$

I hope someday they'll make a PS2 1/2 so the Graphics synthesizer will get the ability to backbuffer textures into RDRAM and give the Graphics synthesizer a bit more EDRAM. If they could just let the PS2 support texture compression that would drastically increase visual quality. The PS2 *DESPERATLEY* needs texture compression!!

After a few die shrinks, maybe when the PS2 is running at 0.9 micron, they can drop the fan on the CPU, (Thus, peace and quiet) and eventually maybe in 2 or 3 years drop all fans all together, maybe drop heatsinks etc..

I think they can do a memory expansion through the firewire port too. 50MB/S is decent enough to store backlog information and I think 256MB would drastically improve visuals on the PS2.

 

[jeffrey]

This guy is an idiot!!

"If we want to compare the "Emotion Engine" with the P III in the Xbox we have to find the total number of mhz in both by multiplying the mhz, by the number of characters which we already found out.
Too hard to understand? let me make it simpler...
For the Xbox: 750x4= 3000 mhz
and the PS2: 294.912x16= 4718.592 mhz"


I could've started off by saying that the PIII isn't an actual PIII and it doesn't run at 750mhz, but 733mhz. However, then I'd feel inclined to correct everything that was said and this guy is just laughable, not correctable.

 

[LH]

Uh every franchise STARTS somewhere. You cant just discount games that arent established franchises, if you did, there would be no franchises... It took what 14 months for the PS2 to have a million seller? It took Xbox 6 months... Of course I think GC beat them both...

 

[FuManStan]

I think the whole issue concerning game lineups is going to be totally subjective. While PS2 and Gamecube have games based on name alone, you have to remember that they had to start somewhere also. Who's not to say that a game on Xbox will end up being as big as Mario? I think many people simply jump on the anti-Xbox bandwagon because 1) its made by Microsoft and 2) it has PC components, and automatically tout the games on their PS2.

 

[NOX]

Well, owning both PS2, and now XBox, I must say I would rather have an XBox. Though I must admit, Sony currently has the better games no doubt. But the titles (not all) the XBox does have are kick a** like Triple play baseball and Nascar Thunder 2002. I'm still waiting for NCAA Football 2002 etc... not to mention Halo also kicks a**!

That guy is obviously biased. The XBox, to me anyway, using both is much faster, load times are better than the PS2. It's the only game console I will keep for a long time, just the games need to catch up to it, but once it does the Xbox will be a well-rounded console.

 

[mchammer187]

<< Uh every franchise STARTS somewhere. You cant just discount games that arent established franchises, if you did, there would be no franchises... It took what 14 months for the PS2 to have a million seller? It took Xbox 6 months... Of course I think GC beat them both... >>



onishuma was the first million seller

it was out march 14th

PS2 debuted around november (last week of october) of last year so that is about 4 .5 months (nov, dec, jan, feb, 1/2 of march)

so it had a milllion seller 4.5 months out the door beating xbox

currently the PS2 outsells the Xbox + GC combined in north america at least

if u luv sports x-box is your best bet probably

i dont like sports games at all closest thing i have is GT3 or SSX tricky

i might pick up FIFA 2k2 though

 

[LH]

You are mixing numbers. Going from first launch to 1million, the PS2 launched before Nov 2000, so no it was more than 4.5 months, and speaking strictly of the north american market, it took the PS2 14 MONTHS to have a million seller, the Xbox took a little less than 6. But as I said, the PS2 debuted before Nov 2000, so if you want to mix and mash numbers, the Xbox had a million seller quicker, and they have also sold more in their first 6 months than Sony did in their first 6 months. As for the million seller its a moot point, mixing and mashing numbers again, Nintendo had a million seller in 4 months(1.5 months in the US).

 

[mchammer187]

<< You are mixing numbers. Going from first launch to 1million, the PS2 launched before Nov 2000, so no it was more than 4.5 months, and speaking strictly of the north american market, it took the PS2 14 MONTHS to have a million seller, the Xbox took a little less than 6. But as I said, the PS2 debuted before Nov 2000, so if you want to mix and mash numbers, the Xbox had a million seller quicker, and they have also sold more in their first 6 months than Sony did in their first 6 months. As for the million seller its a moot point, mixing and mashing numbers again, Nintendo had a million seller in 4 months(1.5 months in the US). >>



i really dont get your math ps2 debuted last week of october 2000 like the 27th or something

onishuma came out march 14th 2001

IT IS WAS the ps2's first millionth seller from NORTH AMERICAN RELEASE of the PS2 to the North American release of the game

the playstation 2 is not even 2 years old yet (STRICTLY talking north america here) so how do you figure

Nov2000 + 14 months = January/ February 2002 which i find to be rediculous since the system has only been out since for 17-18 months


playstion 2 debuts october 27 2000 IN US

onimusha released march 14th 2001

tell me there are 14 months between NOV 2000 (4 days before) and March 14th

thats why i added the .5 months because there was 4 full months between the two dates

 

[Chad]

I think what he means is that the PS2 originally came out in Japan well before the US.

 

[LH]

Bzzzt.


No Onimsusha, did NOT sell 1million in the NA market by March 01. It sold a COMBINED 1million in the US and Japan by March 01. Creating the first 1million seller for the PS2. The first 1million seller in the US was either Madden 2002 or MGS2, at either 11 months or 14 months depending on what company you got the numbers from...

And to back up MY FACTs 300,000 shipped to the US in March 01

Also like I said, from first launch of the PS2(Japan) it took the PS2 9 or so months to have a million seller, worldwide, it took the Xbox less than 5 months worldwide, the GC 4 months worldwide. SSBM hasnt sold 1million in the US yet, so Xbox does edge out the GC and PS2 in the amount of time it took to have a million seller in the NA market. That said, SSBM has sold 2million worldwide. Xbox is doing VERY well in the US. Not good at all in Japan or Europe, but there is still South Korea in October 2002...

 

[christoph83]

LH is right. Onimusha hits the 1 million mark in Japan AND The United States.

 

[mchammer187]

alright now i know what you are talking about

you were too vague in your other post i didnt know wtf you are talking about

i stand corrected

 

[LH]

In 18 months in the NA market the PS2 has sold around 7million units. In less than 6 months the Xbox has sold slightly over 2million. Im betting Christmas 2002 the PS2 and Xbox are neck and neck at around 12million units in the US each, with the GC around 8-10million. Of course it would mean worldwide, PS2 #1, GC #2, and Xbox #3, but the US IS the largest gaming market, at $7.6billion for console gaming last year compared to under $4billion in Japan. IMHO the Xbox will be the best selling console ever in the North American Market by Q3/Q4 2003. But thats just my take of it.

 

[mchammer187]

what i wonder is why if the US gaming market is so good than why dont we see a lot of the games they have in japan

i am tired of 35 % of the new games being sports

seriously who wants to own madden 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 etc blitz 2k 2k1 2k2 ... ( i bet in japan this would never fly)
i guess to each his own

also why not have consoles launch in the US first not japan it doesnt make much sense to me

IMO the american consumer is not a smart one

maybe thats why x-box is doing so well 😀 ( you can sell millions on halo + sports )

 

[LH]

Its simple US gamers by far, have a vast difference in taste compared to Japanese gamers. 90% of Japanese games would never do well if released in the US. Only those geared towards the US market actually do well. As for why Nintendo and Sony dont release in the US first, they are Japanese companies, they would get ALOT bad press if the didnt release in Japan first. Dance Dance Revolution XXIII gets a little old, the Japanese game market is way different than the US, two totally different styles. I personaly can't stand any japanese games that isnt aimed at the US market, and I can only stand very few of those that are aimed at the US market,. And no I don't like many sports games either. I know Im not the only one who hates FF?