Protests over wind power farms

[Throckmorton]

What the fuck? Do you live in a world where the sun doesn't set?

Do you live in a world where energy can't be stored mechanically and chemically? Look at your cell phone. See how it's powered without being connected to a power outlet? Remember Arnold's hydrogen powered Hummer?

 

[K1052]

Do you live in a world where energy can't be stored mechanically and chemically? Look at your cell phone. See how it's powered without being connected to a power outlet? Remember Arnold's hydrogen powered Hummer?

I'm not certain it will be practical or economical (currently or in the foreseeable future) to store that amount of energy. We are always going to have need of some amount of base load generation that can be depended upon.

 

[Throckmorton]

http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/solarenergy.aspx

A CSP farm large enough to capture the solar energy radiating on an area of land 100 miles long by 100 miles wide can produce about 50 times more electricity in a day than California consumes in a 24-hour period. For example, 50 x 912,000 = 45,600,000 megawatt-hours per day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power#Energy_storage_methods

Solar energy can be stored at high temperatures using molten salts. Salts are an effective storage medium because they are low-cost, have a high specific heat capacity and can deliver heat at temperatures compatible with conventional power systems. The Solar Two used this method of energy storage, allowing it to store 1.44 TJ in its 68 m³ storage tank, enough to provide full output for close to 39 hours, with an efficiency of about 99%.[79]


...


Pumped-storage hydroelectricity stores energy in the form of water pumped when surplus electricity is available, from a lower elevation reservoir to a higher elevation one. The energy is recovered when demand is high by releasing the water: the pump becomes a turbine, and the motor a hydroelectric power generator.[81]

Storing solar and wind energy is easy. Want backups? Fine, leave the fossil fuel plants running at minimum capacity in case long distance transmission lines get destroyed or something. But don't waste time and money building nuclear power plant pipe dreams. This isn't 1960, "harnessing the power of the atom" isn't that cool anymore.

 

[bfdd]

we had the same shit in california. they wanted to build a massive solar farm, but hippies got butt hurt that a goat might be displaced so it got shut down. seriously we can't save all the animals and push towards the future. IMO we do nothing but to hamper our progress as a species when we deny ourselves power/energy/resources because of stupid shit like this.

 

[bfdd]

http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/solarenergy.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power#Energy_storage_methods

Storing solar and wind energy is easy. Want backups? Fine, leave the fossil fuel plants running at minimum capacity in case long distance transmission lines get destroyed or something. But don't waste time and money building nuclear power plant pipe dreams. This isn't 1960, "harnessing the power of the atom" isn't that cool anymore.

I disagree, we need nuke plants. We need a lot of nuke plants and we need to not try to enrich weapons grade products.

 

[ShawnD1]

The problem with nuclear power is that it IS in our back yard-- the risk of failure (How much do you trust industry? How's that deep water oil drilling workin out?), and the waste storage. But there wouldn't be any benefit to global climate. Not at all. China is going to keep burning coal aren't they?

Don't we have another P&R thread going where we are specifically talking about China building some kind of thorium based nuclear power plant?

India is moving in that direction as well. Hopefully they'll also put a bunch of research into it and help develop more efficient nuclear power.

Do you live in a world where energy can't be stored mechanically and chemically? Look at your cell phone. See how it's powered without being connected to a power outlet? Remember Arnold's hydrogen powered Hummer?

That's small scale. You need to think large scale. Things like batteries or compressing air or pumping water up hill are all fine ways of storing energy, but they're all extremely inefficient and are only used when there is surplus energy. As it stands right now, the amount of energy we could get from wind and solar just isn't enough to cover the whole tab unless we put windmills and solar panels on pretty much every square inch available. That's just to break even. To get a surplus that can be stored away... yikes. It will take a very very long time before our technology is that good.

 

[PeshakJang]

Don't we have another P&R thread going where we are specifically talking about China building some kind of thorium based nuclear power plant?

India is moving in that direction as well. Hopefully they'll also put a bunch of research into it and help develop more efficient nuclear power.

China is only doing it because they *need* as much power as they can get, from any source that is economically feasible. There's no environmental concern driving their energy policy, it's just the sheer quantity of power that they need and their massive growing demand require as much investment in any feasible form of power as possible.

 

[Throckmorton]

Don't we have another P&R thread going where we are specifically talking about China building some kind of thorium based nuclear power plant?

India is moving in that direction as well. Hopefully they'll also put a bunch of research into it and help develop more efficient nuclear power.



That's small scale. You need to think large scale. Things like batteries or compressing air or pumping water up hill are all fine ways of storing energy, but they're all extremely inefficient and are only used when there is surplus energy. As it stands right now, the amount of energy we could get from wind and solar just isn't enough to cover the whole tab unless we put windmills and solar panels on pretty much every square inch available. That's just to break even. To get a surplus that can be stored away... yikes. It will take a very very long time before our technology is that good.

You can power the entire US with 10,000 square miles of solar panels. If that was all in one place, it would only be a 100mi x 100mi square.

The power plant in that article I posted can store power for 39 hours as molten sodium. Why can't every solar plant?

Every house can have a hydrogen fuel cell to store several days worth of energy.

 

[bfdd]

just an fyi, china wants nuke plants because they have all the lithium they need to build batteries so they can get off of oil. if china pulls a head of us in non-oil/coal energy production we have lost.

just a question, don't they use molten salts to store energy at some solar plants?

 

[EagleKeeper]

You can power the entire US with 10,000 square miles of solar panels. If that was all in one place, it would only be a 100mi x 100mi square.

The power plant in that article I posted can store power for 39 hours as molten sodium. Why can't every solar plant?

Every house can have a hydrogen fuel cell to store several days worth of energy.

• A problem with solar power would be to get it onto the transmission grid.
• Then where are you going to get a couple of 10K square miles of empty area.
• Third is the environmental impact - in NV the environmentalists have blocked small scle prototypes - lack of sunlight getting to the environment below the panels
• Auxillary plants will still be need incase the weather prevents a field from generating power.
• Does the system store excess capacity during the day and release it at night

No one is going to want this type of system setup on private/public productive land.

 

[Throckmorton]

• A problem with solar power would be to get it onto the transmission grid.
• Then where are you going to get a couple of 10K square miles of empty area.
• Third is the environmental impact - in NV the environmentalists have blocked small scle prototypes - lack of sunlight getting to the environment below the panels
• Auxillary plants will still be need incase the weather prevents a field from generating power.
• Does the system store excess capacity during the day and release it at night

No one is going to want this type of system setup on private/public productive land.

You wouldn't put all the solar generators in one place. You'd need a lot of different solar plants. The total area of 10,000 square miles is pretty small.

Yeah, people will protest about the smallest area of the vast deserts being destroyed, and they're stupid for doing that.

BTW, deserts are only productive because of the massive inputs of water and fossil fuel based fertilizers.

 

[monovillage]

Bats killed by wind turbines.
http://www.wvmcre.org/neg_imapcts/turbineskillbats.htm
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wind-turbines-kill-bats
http://www.fort.usgs.gov/batswindmills/


Birds killed by wind turbines.
http://www.savewesternny.org/wildlife.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203706604574376543308399048.html
http://www.suite101.com/content/rare-red-kite-killed-by-turbine-on-scottish-wind-farm-a254206
http://noapologies.ca/daily-news/more-birds-killed-by-wind-turbines-than-by-oil-fields

Although ignorance is bliss, google works wonders.

 

[piasabird]

Just turn the power off at the protestor's house for about 1 year. They will get the idea.

Just put the panels over a few of these parking lots. Ever been to a giant mall? Put the panels over the top of the Pentagon! Require all covered stadiums to put panels over their covered stadiums or their giant parking lots.

You know why big companies do not put up solar panels? They need a guarantee on the return of their dollar. If they had better returns from power companies, they might be willing to do the numbers and make the investment. This is what Germany Did.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Right, because the sun is going to stop shining. Are you a fucking moron or what?

You know we have huge expanses of desert in this country right? You know we can store energy right? And that our ability to store energy is only going to improve?

actually it does for about 12 hours a day.


besides, you build me a solar plant that will put out 3GW continuously for 98% of the year, 24 hours a day.


nuke plants can do this. solar can't come even close.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If the energy can be stored to double the time that it is generated; existing methods can fill the gaps with no problems.

The parking lot options would be nice - it also by creating shade will reduce the amount of cooling required for vehicles.

Problem with a guaranteed rate of return for the investment is that someone in the end pays for it. Will it be the consumer or the government?

 

[monovillage]

If the energy can be stored to double the time that it is generated; existing methods can fill the gaps with no problems.

The parking lot options would be nice - it also by creating shade will reduce the amount of cooling required for vehicles.

Problem with a guaranteed rate of return for the investment is that someone in the end pays for it. Will it be the consumer or the government?

You mean will it be the consumer or taxpayers? The answer is that it will be both, consumers are already paying much higher rates to support the massive subsidies that are being paid out for solar and wind power and taxpayers pay more because programs that subsidize the high costs of these inefficient and ineffectual power sources are ultimately paid by taxpayers.

BTW "A July 2008 study of the wind farm at Altamont Pass, Calif., estimated that its turbines kill an average of 80 golden eagles per year."

That's from a single windfarm!

 

[Schadenfroh]

New study just came out, seems that 25% Oahu's energy needs could be supplied by wind / solar.
http://www.dailytech.com/Wind+Power...ahus+Increasing+Energy+Needs/article21163.htm

A new study has found that an additional 400 megawatts of wind power, coupled with existing wind farms and solar energy, could provide 25 percent of Oahu's projected electricity demand.

The study, which is the Oahu Wind Integration Study, was conducted by the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, the Hawaiian Electric Company and General Electric Company.

Not sure if I trust GE being involved in this, like trusting Exxon-Mobil to properly carry out studies on petroleum sustainability.

But, it remains to be seen how willing residents are to construct these wind farms. Not sure why more consideration is not given to off-shore wind-farms placed over the horizon, provided that they are economically feasible.

Non-fossil based energy makes sense for Hawaii, given its position in the middle of the Pacific.

 

[IGBT]

no matter which energy choice you make the eco-KOOKS will be there to stand in the way with alarmist rhetoric of some sort. It's all symptomatic of their psychosis.

 

[Throckmorton]

New study just came out, seems that 25% Oahu's energy needs could be supplied by wind / solar.
http://www.dailytech.com/Wind+Power...ahus+Increasing+Energy+Needs/article21163.htm

Not sure if I trust GE being involved in this, like trusting Exxon-Mobil to properly carry out studies on petroleum sustainability.

But, it remains to be seen how willing residents are to construct these wind farms. Not sure why more consideration is not given to off-shore wind-farms placed over the horizon, provided that they are economically feasible.

Non-fossil based energy makes sense for Hawaii, given its position in the middle of the Pacific.

We spend a LOT for fossil fuels to make electricity, and we have no stockpile whatsoever. Hawaii is a day away from total blackout.

Solar and wind make complete sense here. A lot of the time the trade winds are blowing, and the leeward sides of the islands are either semi-arid or deserts. Tidal power would also make sense.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You also have tidal generators that can be placed in bays and/or sunk offshore to generate energy.

There is enough non-fossil fuel available that Hawaii shoud lbe able to wen itself; it is the costs that they worry about.

New Zealand is just starting such a project

 

[sandorski]

Geothermal should be viable in Hawaii.

 

[bigdog1218]

Money should be spent on renewable energy research, not wasted on current technology that doesn't get the job done. Building huge wind and solar farms today is a waste of money.

Using taxpayers money to subsidize these farms that already increase the cost of electricity in their areas is pointless. There is no energy crunch in the nation, we have enough power, spend the money on making sure 50 years from now our renewable energy solutions are ready to actually take over the power load.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Until you tweak the renewable sources for peak efficiency; when the time comes you will still be behind the curve in wastefullness.

While the pressure does not fully exist; get the kinks wrung out

 

[piasabird]

I thought Hawaii was an island paradise with ocean breezes and 70 degree weather all year round???

Put on your bathing suit and relax???

 

[Zivic]

You should see the extreme right's side of the same issue of smart meters too. Privacy - since the power company would know what time of day you use the most or least power. Or how a burglar could hack into it and see when you're home. But they fail to realize that it would require at least a week of monitoriing of the meter to figure out what the baseline is. While the old fashion way of just driving by is still available.

Or how many of them use credit cards, frequent shopper cards, allow 3rd party cookies on their browser, use Facebook and other social media sites....

Extreme left and right together on one stupid issue.

smart meters my @ss.. you mean to tell me the power companies don't know when people are using the most power. How stupid. Like a gas station not knowing how much fuel they sell