Protests in Iran, Amazing Video Shows Iranian Protesters Storming Gallows

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
There's an amazing 2003 Documentary on Iran called "Iran: Veiled Appearances." When you watch it, you immediately understand the people and their plite. I can't find it on youtube, and the publisher wants $390 for the DVD :) Fucking Iranian. ;)

http://icarusfilms.com/new2003/iranv.html

It's got one of the best speeches I have ever heard. An Iranian leader, I think Khatami, calls out terrorism... but he's not calling out the U.S. when he does it, he is calling out his own Government/Theocracy. Absolutely amazing speech. He quotes a Persian Poet to end the speech... and then (paraphrased), "Säid Hajarian fought terror, (and lost his legs to Government torture), I fight terror, and I fight on!"

It's a beautiful video, and maybe even worth $400.

-John

$400 for an hour documentary? Are they fucking high? Hollywood is a bunch of chumps compared to this gouging....wow. Well there is the FRONTLINE documentary I posted on first paging giving a pretty good low down. .. and it's free.
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
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I beg to differ. Iranians are not normal Muslims. First of all they had a long glorious history long before Islam took hold and it's still embraced and taught for the most part. Islam is not the be all end all most glorious times like in Arabia. Second to this day they are resentful about Arab supremacism e.g. Zoroastrians had to embrace Islam and they know it, Persian had to embrace the Arabic script and they know it. Their Persian names were replaced with Islamic ones and they know it. And they don't like it. If their is one Islamic group modernizing or calling for modernization while the rest of Islamic world falls further into fundamentalism it's Iranians and they deserve our full support. For the Islamic "gift" from far more primitive people in their eyes, the Arabs, often derogativly referred to as 'lizarrd eater Arabs' and 'barbarians', is a gift many wish would stop giving.

You act as if you know thousands of Iranians, lived amongst them and know them as you know your own familiy. From being from that part of the world, I can say that you are not even in the slighest correct about half the things you just said. Iranians are one of the most religious people in the world. Certainly moreso than Pakistan or Afghanistan, yes you heard me right. Iranians are, almost by definition, Shia muslims. It is far more conservative than most Sunni sects.

Secondly, the anti-modernism streak in the Islamic countries has far more to do with where the modernism comes from rather than modernism itself. Remember, Islam was the first religion to basically give women any sort of power. The whole idea of Western philosophy originated in Arabia during the 800s-1500s while Europe was busy killing witches and other shadowy figures. Where do you think the great works of Greece and Rome were preserved? The Islamic scholars preserved these texts, debated them and expanded on them for hundreds of years before the West rediscovered them during the Crusades.

The biggest thing holding back Arabia/Asia is the continued support of the Emirs, Sultans, Kings and Presidents-for-life by the West. Remove that support and within 30 years we'll see a resurgent Middle East. Look what happened to Eastern Europe under the Soviets. Under Soviet rule, they stagnated and stalled. Take away that oppressive force and Eastern Europe is finally beginning to come onto it's own after 20 years. To be fair, there are still major hurdles to be made, but no one can honestly say that Eastern Europe today is worse off than 20 years ago.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You act as if you know thousands of Iranians, lived amongst them and know them as you know your own familiy. From being from that part of the world, I can say that you are not even in the slighest correct about half the things you just said. Iranians are one of the most religious people in the world. Certainly moreso than Pakistan or Afghanistan, yes you heard me right. Iranians are, almost by definition, Shia muslims. It is far more conservative than most Sunni sects.

Secondly, the anti-modernism streak in the Islamic countries has far more to do with where the modernism comes from rather than modernism itself. Remember, Islam was the first religion to basically give women any sort of power. The whole idea of Western philosophy originated in Arabia during the 800s-1500s while Europe was busy killing witches and other shadowy figures. Where do you think the great works of Greece and Rome were preserved? The Islamic scholars preserved these texts, debated them and expanded on them for hundreds of years before the West rediscovered them during the Crusades.

The biggest thing holding back Arabia/Asia is the continued support of the Emirs, Sultans, Kings and Presidents-for-life by the West. Remove that support and within 30 years we'll see a resurgent Middle East. Look what happened to Eastern Europe under the Soviets. Under Soviet rule, they stagnated and stalled. Take away that oppressive force and Eastern Europe is finally beginning to come onto it's own after 20 years. To be fair, there are still major hurdles to be made, but no one can honestly say that Eastern Europe today is worse off than 20 years ago.

I call bullshit. First, the Roman Empire granted to women more freedom and power, even before it became Christian, than are granted to women in most Muslim countries today. This was quite before Mohammad was even conceived, let alone moved from rag picker to prophet. Second, while the West may for pragmatic reasons support royalty in Saudi Arabia and Jordan and the UAE, it also supports representational democracy in Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan. None of those nations have achieved (or are achieving) greatness, but are rather ever slipping toward Islamic theocracies. The West also opposes royalty or "presidents-for-life" or theocracies in Syria and Iraq, formerly supported representational democracy in Lebanon (Paris of the Middle East) before Islam seized it and made it into a hell hole, and is encouraging such progress in Malaysia and Indonesia. The fundamental force for evil and enslavement in our world today is not the West or even the East, but rather Islam. The only significant modernism or progress originating in the Islamic world today are interesting ways to kill innocents.

Your signature is quite telling. You evidently don't want to admit that everything Islam holds, it also took by the sword, which almost included Europe. Had there been no Islamic conquests of the Middle East, there would have been no need for the Crusades. Had Islam conquered Europe, the world today would stand at seventh century levels at best, as witnessed by pretty much every Islamic nation. Outside of some mathematics and philosophy, none of our modern progress originates within Islam. There's a reason Islam means "submission" rather than "progress" or "freedom".
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,726
45
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Bob don't even get me started on AK's, lets just say thank god our enemies use them:D

no love for the aks? :D

i think they would work well for that purpose - extreme cqb. those motorcycle guys wouldn't have a chance, the shooters on the roof....well they could keep them at bay, at least the ones in the vicinity
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I am thinking the people of Iran would take the Shah in a heartbeat over their current regime.

The Shah got in trouble with Jimmy Carter because he had hundreds of political prisoner which Carter thought was awful. Of course the first thing the Ayatollah did was execute all of the Shah's prisoners.

Your apologizing for evil gets old. I know, ANY act the US ever does isn't as bad as the holocaust, so you can just say that and dismiss any criticism. Your apologizing is the reason for Godwin's Law.

There was a list of tyrants in a discussion about Iran, and the Shah was not mentioned, a glaring ommission (and the 'random' samping wasn't so random, not mentioning a single US-backed tyrant).

Your apologizing is like confronting a drunk driver who says others have driven drunk more, confronting a thief who says others steal more, and so on. You refuse to just take any responsibility for 'your side'.

You minimize the Shah's repression - because of two things, your ignorance, and your willingnmess to just make up the history that fits your ideology instead of learning the actual history.

I'm not familirar with the prisoners you mention (as I set an example for you, say if you don't know something) but let's say you're right. Let's even say the current regime is a lot worse.

That doesn't change a thing about how bad the Shah was - and you fail to note how the history with the Shah, the US installing a tyrant, was essential to the radical clerics ever being able to get into power.

As with many countries, there's a common pattern to the US role historically - putting in a tyranny for selfish reasons of power, often overthrowing a far better government, while demonizing the government it overthrew and painting the tyrant in a positive light, but the tyranny leading to big problems and the fall of the tyrant - sometimes replaced by another terrible regime.

Examples: China, with Chiang Kai-Shek's US-backed corruption replaced by Mao; Cuba, with Batista's US-backed corruption replaced by Castro; Nicaragua, with Somoza's US-backed corruption replaced by the Sandanista rebels;Venezuela, with the US-backed corrupt regimes replaced by Chavez; Vietnam, with the corrupt US-backed Diem replaced by other bad US-backed regimes and eventually the communists (as well as the US destabalizing of Cambodia's government directly leading to the Khmer Rouge being able to take power); our current topic of the corrupt Shah replaced by Khomeini and many others.

I'll digress a moment for another example to say this was a constand theme for JFK - his foreign policy was filled with these situations, where a moderate, independant, sometimes left-leaning faction in a country was opposed by the right in the US, by the military, who were used to siding with corrupt right-wing tyrants who would be 'loyal' to the US. He faced this in Laos where Eisenhower had rejected the moderate, ion Africa where the moderate was rejected by the US and assassinated, in North Afrcia where countries like France and Portugal expected the US to support their right-wing colonization, in South America and more.

You being ignorant of the history is no excuse for your posting apologetic excuses for wrongs.

I'm sympathetic to your pointing out how bad the current Iran regime is - but not to your selective cherry pickikng and even distortion and minimizing of the history where the US made mistakes.

If you could acknowledge the history good and bad, there could be a discussion about how to improve things, but you are just advocating to repeat history.

'Hey, better a right-wing tyrant keeping power with a US-supplied secret police torturing and killing political dissidents than the Ayatollahs, so let's go for it'.

No, let's not. Let's not siupport either and recognize the mistake of oujr own corrupt behavior in some situations and support GOOD government even if it's not our corrupt puppet.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Iranians have far more balls than complacent Americans despite the fact that the government there has been shooting people, has arrested and tortured people, despite the fact that the Iranian population does not enjoy a Second Amendment, and thus, is forced to fight a shoot to kill government with rocks and clubs, they are still taking it to the streets demanding justice.

Despite your false cheap shot in the following post, you are right here; but we should not just 'think well' of these people but instead pay attention to the injustice being done to them.

War can sometimes be romanticized and that's basically always a bad thing. I'm far more concerned about the danger and oppression for these people than cheering them like a sport team.

I don't mean to say you are doing that, but it's something that happens, when the conflicts are a 'media packaged event'. We watch movies and cheer the good guys, and can do the same in these stories.

It's less important that they're behaving so courageously, than that they're having to. They're victims of tyranny first, and freedom fighters second.

As you noted a lesson we can learn is how our supporting cheap oil by overthrowing democraqcy and installing a tyrant was a bad idea. How about we try supporting a return to real democracy now,

We're far more credible pushing democracy when we acknowledge our own anti-democratic history there - even apologize for it - but our right-wingers scream murder at the idea of telling the truth.

Our own right-wingers thereby limit our options at leading the push for real democracy by putting misguided desire to say the US is always correct over the truth, and harming our credibility.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Don't worry Craig your hero Chavez declared that Iran and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are all just misunderstood and being picked on by the evil US government.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,529
10,011
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Iran won't collapse. Unlike Savak who got tired of shooting civilians the Revolutionary Guard does not have that problem believing they are doing gods work. Furthermore the West is entirely impotent in aiding freedom fighters covertly and overtly giving Iran a free pass. Finally, at the UN, The All-Israel-All-The-Time-UN, there will be blockage of any punitive action on Iran by 53 member Muslim Block.
It has seemed pretty clear to me that a revolution in Iran has to and will be fueled by its own people. That's what's going on and it isn't just smoldering, fire is breaking out here and there. Will it be quelled? Maybe, but the Iranians aren't being timid here. Assuming the election was indeed rigged, it's hard to imagine that this will just fizzle.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Sort of puts to shame our reaction to having our 2000 election stolen. Too much hassle to fight it.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,726
45
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It has seemed pretty clear to me that a revolution in Iran has to and will be fueled by its own people. That's what's going on and it isn't just smoldering, fire is breaking out here and there. Will it be quelled? Maybe, but the Iranians aren't being timid here. Assuming the election was indeed rigged, it's hard to imagine that this will just fizzle.

hell, our elections and politicians are rigged and corrupt and we are the beacon of light for a "democracy", you can be nearly 100% guaranteed that the iranian election was rigged.

i applaud the iranian people for standing up knowing they are putting their lives on the line for something they believe in.