Proposal to Give Control of Debt Ceiling to POTUS?

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,730
2
81
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...-crazy-to-claim-unilateral-debt-ceiling-power

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), who will soon be the second-ranking Republican in the Senate, on Friday panned a proposal by the White House that would allow President Obama to raise the debt ceiling without congressional approval.

Cornyn was referring to a plan Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner presented to Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) on Thursday that was meant to avoid the "fiscal cliff" of tax increases and spending cuts.

Control of finances belongs to congress, you give POTUS that kind power who needs congress?

The proposal does hint at the Administrations intent for consolidating power unto itself.
 
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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Doesn't he already have control of it somewhat? When Congress wants to spend x and has x-y revenue, can't he already tell them 'F no', and hit veto? Seems somewhat redundant to me...

Chuck
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Doesn't he already have control of it somewhat? When Congress wants to spend x and has x-y revenue, can't he already tell them 'F no', and hit veto? Seems somewhat redundant to me...

Chuck

Congress has the ability to override his veto and make it law regardless if he likes it or not.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
Uh, the Congress already voted to spend the money. Its insane that after they vote to spend it they want to vote to pay back what they spent?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
The debt ceiling limit should abolished anyway. It does nothing to limit spending. Thats what the budget is for.

The debt ceiling vote is more "shall we or shall we not stiff our creditors and send ourselves into economic pandemonium?" Only idiot teapartiers think thats a good idea.
Its like having a vote every month to whether I should pay the Visa bill or not.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The debt ceiling limit should abolished anyway. It does nothing to limit spending. Thats what the budget is for.

The debt ceiling vote is more "shall we or shall we not stiff our creditors and send ourselves into economic pandemonium?" Only idiot teapartiers think thats a good idea.
Its like having a vote every month to whether I should pay the Visa bill or not.

Quite. Although nobody actually gets stiffed, the interest paid by govt can actually be forced up with this procedure, which is the real point entirely, other than posing, posturing & pandering...
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
So if there should be no debt limit, why should we even have taxes?* Let's just borrow as much as we can spend and put all those IRS people to useful work, like inspecting school children's lunches brought from home or strip searching grandmothers.

* Apologies and a hat tip to whomever I stole that from.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,597
29,230
146
The debt ceiling limit should abolished anyway. It does nothing to limit spending. Thats what the budget is for.

The debt ceiling vote is more "shall we or shall we not stiff our creditors and send ourselves into economic pandemonium?" Only idiot teapartiers think thats a good idea.
Its like having a vote every month to whether I should pay the Visa bill or not.

dingding.

we have a wiener.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,597
29,230
146
So if there should be no debt limit, why should we even have taxes?* Let's just borrow as much as we can spend and put all those IRS people to useful work, like inspecting school children's lunches brought from home or strip searching grandmothers.

* Apologies and a hat tip to whomever I stole that from.

militant grandmothers are the true threat to our beloved republic.

:thumbsup:
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
militant grandmothers are the true threat to our beloved republic.

:thumbsup:
:D Yeah, but who wants to see them strip searched? Why isn't Kaley Cuoco or Kelly Stables ever the true threat to our beloved republic?

I'm also willing to accept Melissa Rauch or Helena Bonham Carter as the true threat to our beloved republic. Because I am nothing if not flexible.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
The debt ceiling limit should abolished anyway. It does nothing to limit spending. Thats what the budget is for.

The debt ceiling vote is more "shall we or shall we not stiff our creditors and send ourselves into economic pandemonium?" Only idiot teapartiers think thats a good idea.
Its like having a vote every month to whether I should pay the Visa bill or not.

You and others in this thread appear to be confused. Congress sets a budget but does not control the financial results of the government because some factors are outside of their control. They can set tax rates but that results in uncertain revenue and even they wrote a law specifying how much each American had to pay to the penny they couldn't guarantee it would be collected. Congress also doesn't control interest rates so they don't know how much interest the government will have to pay with certainty

An analogy would be that the manager of a business could set prices and employee salaries but couldn't precisely control the cash flows of the business because some things are out of his control.

The Treasury manages the day to day finances which of the result of both things Congress can control and those that they can't. I think that it's appropriate for Congress to set reasonable boundaries to force some action when the fiscal situation gets out of hand. I understand the argument that this is a redundant check, but sometimes redundancy is prudent.

Another issue is that without the debt ceiling I think the treasury would actually be able to conduct a shadow monetary policy by issue extra bonds and sitting on the cash. Although there may be other laws preventing this.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
So if there should be no debt limit, why should we even have taxes?* Let's just borrow as much as we can spend and put all those IRS people to useful work, like inspecting school children's lunches brought from home or strip searching grandmothers.

* Apologies and a hat tip to whomever I stole that from.

Because the debt ceiling in no way limits Congressional spending or tax laws. People seem to think the debt ceiling is a limit on how much we can borrow in the future to spend, but it's really a limit on how much we can borrow to pay off debt congress already created. That is a significant difference that is almost always left out of the debate, and while it's understandable among the average Joe, it's totally ridiculous coming from Senators who should (and possibly do) know better. Basically it's the difference between cutting up your credit cards to avoid more spending and buying a ton of stuff on your credit card then refusing to make any payments. Our credit rating was downgraded primarily because our government contemplated refusing to make good on its debts. Or in other words, Congress agreed to spend money but came very close to preventing the government from being able to borrow the money to fund that spending.

Congress is well within its authority to limit debt using tools like decreasing spending and increasing revenue. Doing it by pretending our debt doesn't exist is incredibly, stupidly reckless.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
So if there should be no debt limit, why should we even have taxes?* Let's just borrow as much as we can spend and put all those IRS people to useful work, like inspecting school children's lunches brought from home or strip searching grandmothers.

* Apologies and a hat tip to whomever I stole that from.

The real debt limit is already built in to whatever budget congress has already approved. They knew they'd have to raise the limit when they passed the budget in the first place.

Being able to renege is just a method to temporarily end payments, damage the govt's credit rating & force up rates in service to the true Bush constituency.

Patriotism, huh?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Because the debt ceiling in no way limits Congressional spending or tax laws. People seem to think the debt ceiling is a limit on how much we can borrow in the future to spend, but it's really a limit on how much we can borrow to pay off debt congress already created. That is a significant difference that is almost always left out of the debate, and while it's understandable among the average Joe, it's totally ridiculous coming from Senators who should (and possibly do) know better. Basically it's the difference between cutting up your credit cards to avoid more spending and buying a ton of stuff on your credit card then refusing to make any payments. Our credit rating was downgraded primarily because our government contemplated refusing to make good on its debts. Or in other words, Congress agreed to spend money but came very close to preventing the government from being able to borrow the money to fund that spending.

Congress is well within its authority to limit debt using tools like decreasing spending and increasing revenue. Doing it by pretending our debt doesn't exist is incredibly, stupidly reckless.
If I budget buying a new car but I don't have enough money to do so, is it really wise to obtain and max out yet another credit card just because I've already budgeted for it? This is what we're discussing. Passing a budget and authorizing spending doesn't mean we HAVE to spend that much money even if we don't have it, it simply authorizes spending that much money.

But hey, you guys are in charge. If you truly believe our downgrading was merely because we weren't timely in increasing our debt ceiling, then removing the debt ceiling should be the wise thing to do. We'll just borrow as much money as we want, and when we can't make our interest payments, why, we'll just borrow more money to pay them. Makes tax increases rather pointless though - is it really worth taking money out of the economy during these tough economic times just to punish the rich when we can simply borrow another trillion or two as long as we're prompt in raising our credit limit? I mean sure, I know government handling adds the magic dust - everyone knows that - but surely money not recently confiscated and redistributed by government has SOME economic impact. Wouldn't it be wiser to simply borrow another trillion or two or punish the rich some other way? Perhaps we can make them wear funny hats. Or big yellow stars on their clothes . . . Or am I missing something - could it be that above a certain income and/or wealth level, one's money actually harms the economy?

And I'm also curious as to your explanation for why we actually shut down the government during the Clinton administration without a downgrade, since apparently the huge difference in our national debt is completely immaterial. Shouldn't an actual shutdown be much more damaging under your understanding of economics than simply not raising the limit quickly enough? Wait - I bet it's because the Messiah is black! Damned racist bankers! That's it, isn't it?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Congress has the ability to override his veto and make it law regardless if he likes it or not.

They have the ability but rarely the votes to do so. I'd prefer that in fact. I'd rather have the POTUS veto more bills and then make Congress actually pretend to do their jobs better by getting a 2/3 to override the veto, rather than having things basically stamped Approved each time.

Chuck
 

finglobes

Senior member
Dec 13, 2010
739
0
0
Obama is just a phony, lying Marxist dirtbag who wants to increase US debt as much as possible. Anyone who can't see through this clown yet is a real loser. Obama isn't even good at being slick - people are just that dumb.

“The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.”

V Lenin
 

theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
2,322
14
81
If I budget buying a new car but I don't have enough money to do so, is it really wise to obtain and max out yet another credit card just because I've already budgeted for it? This is what we're discussing. Passing a budget and authorizing spending doesn't mean we HAVE to spend that much money even if we don't have it, it simply authorizes spending that much money.

A significant chunk of the budget is earmarked for various things that Congress has mandated. Some portions of the budget are a "limit" as you describes, but other portions must be spent or the President would be violating the law.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Well, this is more proof that the Republican Party hasn't changed since 1868... they still love the 14th Amendment which gives the President the authority to raise the debt ceiling without Congressional consent.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,229
14,926
136
You and others in this thread appear to be confused. Congress sets a budget but does not control the financial results of the government because some factors are outside of their control. They can set tax rates but that results in uncertain revenue and even they wrote a law specifying how much each American had to pay to the penny they couldn't guarantee it would be collected. Congress also doesn't control interest rates so they don't know how much interest the government will have to pay with certainty

An analogy would be that the manager of a business could set prices and employee salaries but couldn't precisely control the cash flows of the business because some things are out of his control.

The Treasury manages the day to day finances which of the result of both things Congress can control and those that they can't. I think that it's appropriate for Congress to set reasonable boundaries to force some action when the fiscal situation gets out of hand. I understand the argument that this is a redundant check, but sometimes redundancy is prudent.

Another issue is that without the debt ceiling I think the treasury would actually be able to conduct a shadow monetary policy by issue extra bonds and sitting on the cash. Although there may be other laws preventing this.

You are the one that is confused.




The debt ceiling is completely pointless and should be taken out of the equation.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,481
4,552
136
Obama is just a phony, lying Marxist dirtbag who wants to increase US debt as much as possible. Anyone who can't see through this clown yet is a real loser. Obama isn't even good at being slick - people are just that dumb.

“The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.”

V Lenin


You still believe that crap?

tinfoil.jpg