Colt45
Lifer
- Apr 18, 2001
- 19,720
- 1
- 0
Add Germany, Austria, Czech Republic off the top of my head, and minimal to no enforcement in a lot of other countries.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi..._throughout_Europe.png
Add Germany, Austria, Czech Republic off the top of my head, and minimal to no enforcement in a lot of other countries.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi..._throughout_Europe.png
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
Ah we've just written off a large parts of the world, China, Japan, Korea, India, Singapore, Malaysia wtc which are not based on Judeo Christian values and therefore plain dangerous to live in.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Hadn't connected this. Christianity was a precursor to the dark ages. Thanks again, religion.
Hopefully, we're not at the beginning of another, similar era.
Born2bwire
Diamond Member
- Oct 28, 2005
- 9,840
- 6
- 71
Oh come on. Christianity was not the real contributing factor to the fall of Rome and the subsequent dark ages. If anything, the Catholic Church was the one political constant in the Middle Ages. Religion did not prevent the rise of the Islamic states during the Middle Ages and it did not prevent the resurgence of Europe since the Rennaissance. It's only been a very recent trend that religion has started to lose its power and influence over the state.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 73,384
- 34,926
- 136
Read The Closing of the Western Mind by Charles Freeman. He makes a good case that the rise of Christianity did play a large role in the fall of Rome. It is a heavy slog through Christian doctrine but worth reading.
The author reviews the reviews on amazon.
Like the current repugs' attack on intellectualism? celebrating mediocrity - ie. bush, palin, etc?
Originally posted by: alchemize
I have a theory.
Moonbeam and Butterbean are the same person
We are all the same.
Right. Like the christian god and jesus are the same. And, since it's getting close to halloween, the same as the holy ghost.Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: alchemize
I have a theory.
Moonbeam and Butterbean are the same person
We are all the same.
All different and all the same. So confusing. Oh well, were do I put the money?
Oh please, stop proselityzing to the rest of us for a second and explain why the bible should be used as the basis for our laws again?
Maybe you should push for a ban on divorce if you're really that serious about "preserving families" instead of just using it as a cover to blanket the country with your brand of Christian Sharia.
Butterbean: I don't condemn people -
M: I wish I didn't but I do. I don't have enough faith if the truth or the good. I fail and think both need me to help them along.
B: I discern what I see objectively.
M: I say that I do too, but I have a hunch I'm as blinded by my own prejudice as I can see others are.
B: I am allowed to see Hitler is evil - to not do so would be psychotic.
M: His actions were evil because he acted out his sickness.
B: The problem would be if I egotistically puffed up over someone's failing - enjoying their issues as a way of giving myself a boost by puffing up emotionally in ego self satisfaction.
M: So true but I'm not immune to this.
B: There is a distinction between judgment and discernment. Even judging yourself can be wrong - if instead of seeing your faults you inflate in anger and condemnation of yourself. That's because its playing God to even judge yourself and that can set you in conflict with yourself. As you say it can be a person is condeming others emotionally to try to make up for the inferiority/self condemnation they have.
M: Yup
B: Love as Jesus spoke of is not the emotional love of the Renaissance. The Greeks had seven different words for love. When Jesus said "love your enemy" he didn't mean hug and kiss them. The love in that case was "agape" a more spiritual love. if his words had been translated as "dont hate your enemy" it would be closer to original meaning. A reason for that has to do with self defense. Evil wants people to hate it because that' how it gets inside people. Mean and cruel people generally became so at the hands of other mean and cruel people who caused them to fall into hate. That's a trauma in a spiritual sense and it causes people to grow from a side of their nature not organic to them.
M: Yup, I think it's the result of the power to abstract based created by the acquisition of language, the ability to conceptualize the notion of evil and apply it to children.
It was Paul I believe who said "the good I want to do I cant do - the bad I dont want to do I do - therefore I know its not I who do the bad but the sin (or false) nature that dwells within me". Hes basically talking about addiction and a compulsive conditioned nature that is not really him - as the child he was in his heart at birth ( Jung also spoke of a "false self"). A lot of biblical stuff is just psychology but the churches made it all poofy. "Salvation" has been made otherworldly and it can be but it also meant escape from a false nature in this world.
M: Couldn't agree more. I call it the false ego or what the Sufis call the Commanding Self, to my mind a split or division of the personality that had to occur when we were told we were evil and unworthy of love, a defense against pain, a collapse of the self into conformity.
B: A way to do that is to let go of the angers because resentment is a hypnotic emotion that sustains trauma and blocks objectivity and a return healing. "Forgiveness" is in many ways for the benefit of the forgiver and not the forgiven. Even hating and struggling with your own problems can make them worse. Once you (or anyone I mean) can step back from problems and see them with a gentle remorse without struggle or condemning most issues will clear up on their own. I quit smoking like that - poof - just went away no withdrawls.
M: There are many ways to do this I think, as many as there are people. They cluster around various themes. The religious person weakens the false self via faith in a greater and better ideal. The Yogi sees into his delusions and ends them in understanding. The fakir masters passion via control, etc. The other way is to feel what you really feel, to go back and remember how you died to the true self and via the release of all the grief and pain, recover it.
B: Now one needed element is an honest look at self and others. We all inherit various flaws (i dont mean genetics) as humans.
M: To look may be possible, but to feel what you really feel is a straight way to the truth.
B: The issue is the denial because thats ego and ego is like playing God and sets one up for conflict. Indeed, we can feel inferior for say being put down at home and getting upset - and then try to compensate with achievements - but since thos efforts are egotistical we can feel more empty because of the success then the acclaim which can make one feel really lost.
M: Yes so true. What we deny is our pain, how bad we were made to feel.
B: So I would agree its not people who are evil but what gets inside them.
M: Yes, the split, the identification or conformity to the pressure of parents etc.
B: Then if a person sees that and feels remorse (blessed are those that mourn bla bla) its a sign of a good attitude. If a person defends the error in themselves its essentially siding with the error to preserve ego or the false self.
M: So true. If we could only suffer what we suffer openly, to feel it all, we would get past the grief because grief is real feeling and returns us to life, to the place where we split and died.
B: I dont look at individual prostitutes, crooks, gays, alcoholics etc and say 'you are a bad person" with a sense of ego superiority because deep down anyone of them might be better than me (but I dont try to judge that one way or another). In fact, I see a lot of those things as related to problems that can block those people from reclaiming whats inside them (not that I see it as my duty to liberate them).
M: I agree
B: It can happen that a person can be driven further into denial if people use them for judgment. However a person can also see errors innocently and still people will project a bad intent in order to sustain a rebellion (often compulsive).
M: It is the catch 22. In order to know one is OK one has to feel how much one hates oneself, the very thing the ego is there to prevent.
B: In any case people still need to hold on to their own roots at some point. One Jesus story has him insulting a woman. She asks him for something and he says "you dont feed the dogs before the children" (she was gentile). She could have taken offense but instead said even dogs can get scraps etc. He praised her for her ability to transcend any ego reaction.
M: The meek have so much less a way to travel. They are much closer to how worthless they feel. They have more in the way of surrender.
B: Likewise people here can think I am insulting them on some deep level when emotionally I dont care what they are into one way or another.
M: I've noticed. I'm rather the same. I care, but I know it's my ego that gets hurt and not me.
B: If they insult me back thats not such an issue either and they might be fine people deep down.
M: It takes time to get to understand people.
B: I don't like Obama politically but I can see where hes a hurt kid on some level and not really bad person at all.
M: Maybe in time we will understand him better too.
M: I wish I didn't but I do. I don't have enough faith if the truth or the good. I fail and think both need me to help them along.
B: I discern what I see objectively.
M: I say that I do too, but I have a hunch I'm as blinded by my own prejudice as I can see others are.
B: I am allowed to see Hitler is evil - to not do so would be psychotic.
M: His actions were evil because he acted out his sickness.
B: The problem would be if I egotistically puffed up over someone's failing - enjoying their issues as a way of giving myself a boost by puffing up emotionally in ego self satisfaction.
M: So true but I'm not immune to this.
B: There is a distinction between judgment and discernment. Even judging yourself can be wrong - if instead of seeing your faults you inflate in anger and condemnation of yourself. That's because its playing God to even judge yourself and that can set you in conflict with yourself. As you say it can be a person is condeming others emotionally to try to make up for the inferiority/self condemnation they have.
M: Yup
B: Love as Jesus spoke of is not the emotional love of the Renaissance. The Greeks had seven different words for love. When Jesus said "love your enemy" he didn't mean hug and kiss them. The love in that case was "agape" a more spiritual love. if his words had been translated as "dont hate your enemy" it would be closer to original meaning. A reason for that has to do with self defense. Evil wants people to hate it because that' how it gets inside people. Mean and cruel people generally became so at the hands of other mean and cruel people who caused them to fall into hate. That's a trauma in a spiritual sense and it causes people to grow from a side of their nature not organic to them.
M: Yup, I think it's the result of the power to abstract based created by the acquisition of language, the ability to conceptualize the notion of evil and apply it to children.
It was Paul I believe who said "the good I want to do I cant do - the bad I dont want to do I do - therefore I know its not I who do the bad but the sin (or false) nature that dwells within me". Hes basically talking about addiction and a compulsive conditioned nature that is not really him - as the child he was in his heart at birth ( Jung also spoke of a "false self"). A lot of biblical stuff is just psychology but the churches made it all poofy. "Salvation" has been made otherworldly and it can be but it also meant escape from a false nature in this world.
M: Couldn't agree more. I call it the false ego or what the Sufis call the Commanding Self, to my mind a split or division of the personality that had to occur when we were told we were evil and unworthy of love, a defense against pain, a collapse of the self into conformity.
B: A way to do that is to let go of the angers because resentment is a hypnotic emotion that sustains trauma and blocks objectivity and a return healing. "Forgiveness" is in many ways for the benefit of the forgiver and not the forgiven. Even hating and struggling with your own problems can make them worse. Once you (or anyone I mean) can step back from problems and see them with a gentle remorse without struggle or condemning most issues will clear up on their own. I quit smoking like that - poof - just went away no withdrawls.
M: There are many ways to do this I think, as many as there are people. They cluster around various themes. The religious person weakens the false self via faith in a greater and better ideal. The Yogi sees into his delusions and ends them in understanding. The fakir masters passion via control, etc. The other way is to feel what you really feel, to go back and remember how you died to the true self and via the release of all the grief and pain, recover it.
B: Now one needed element is an honest look at self and others. We all inherit various flaws (i dont mean genetics) as humans.
M: To look may be possible, but to feel what you really feel is a straight way to the truth.
B: The issue is the denial because thats ego and ego is like playing God and sets one up for conflict. Indeed, we can feel inferior for say being put down at home and getting upset - and then try to compensate with achievements - but since thos efforts are egotistical we can feel more empty because of the success then the acclaim which can make one feel really lost.
M: Yes so true. What we deny is our pain, how bad we were made to feel.
B: So I would agree its not people who are evil but what gets inside them.
M: Yes, the split, the identification or conformity to the pressure of parents etc.
B: Then if a person sees that and feels remorse (blessed are those that mourn bla bla) its a sign of a good attitude. If a person defends the error in themselves its essentially siding with the error to preserve ego or the false self.
M: So true. If we could only suffer what we suffer openly, to feel it all, we would get past the grief because grief is real feeling and returns us to life, to the place where we split and died.
B: I dont look at individual prostitutes, crooks, gays, alcoholics etc and say 'you are a bad person" with a sense of ego superiority because deep down anyone of them might be better than me (but I dont try to judge that one way or another). In fact, I see a lot of those things as related to problems that can block those people from reclaiming whats inside them (not that I see it as my duty to liberate them).
M: I agree
B: It can happen that a person can be driven further into denial if people use them for judgment. However a person can also see errors innocently and still people will project a bad intent in order to sustain a rebellion (often compulsive).
M: It is the catch 22. In order to know one is OK one has to feel how much one hates oneself, the very thing the ego is there to prevent.
B: In any case people still need to hold on to their own roots at some point. One Jesus story has him insulting a woman. She asks him for something and he says "you dont feed the dogs before the children" (she was gentile). She could have taken offense but instead said even dogs can get scraps etc. He praised her for her ability to transcend any ego reaction.
M: The meek have so much less a way to travel. They are much closer to how worthless they feel. They have more in the way of surrender.
B: Likewise people here can think I am insulting them on some deep level when emotionally I dont care what they are into one way or another.
M: I've noticed. I'm rather the same. I care, but I know it's my ego that gets hurt and not me.
B: If they insult me back thats not such an issue either and they might be fine people deep down.
M: It takes time to get to understand people.
B: I don't like Obama politically but I can see where hes a hurt kid on some level and not really bad person at all.
M: Maybe in time we will understand him better too.
Like all complex moral issues this one is not easy.
In a perfect world there would be no prostitution, no women who would have any need for money or men not having good loving sex.
What we have, however, is a world full of sick and desperate people. If we could fix that this problem maybe wouldn't exist.
In the mean time we have to manage the world as we find it as best that we can. The more we try to cure our evils with laws and punishment the worse we make the world, it seems to me. The greater we emphasize evil the worse people feel. Sickness and hate thrive best where there is repression, it seems to me. Remove the lid and the coke foams up and spills everywhere at first but later goes flat. Legalization, in the long run, it seems to me, will be required as we grow up and heal the world.
In a perfect world there would be no prostitution, no women who would have any need for money or men not having good loving sex.
What we have, however, is a world full of sick and desperate people. If we could fix that this problem maybe wouldn't exist.
In the mean time we have to manage the world as we find it as best that we can. The more we try to cure our evils with laws and punishment the worse we make the world, it seems to me. The greater we emphasize evil the worse people feel. Sickness and hate thrive best where there is repression, it seems to me. Remove the lid and the coke foams up and spills everywhere at first but later goes flat. Legalization, in the long run, it seems to me, will be required as we grow up and heal the world.
My life experiences have shown me that sometimes when one asks a question one is making a statement rather than asking and before any answer can arrive the person first has to see he already has one in mind that he or she needs getting out in front first.
So instead of just answering is some fashion as best I'm able, can I get your views, if any, on the matter? What do you feel about this?
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