Prominent Statisticians Refute 'Explanation' of 2004 U.S. Exit Poll Discrepancies

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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: BBond
A full analysis of the 2004 election is warranted.

Why is that, bob? Because you and others aren't happy with the outcome? Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?
:laugh:

CsG

Your ever present ":laugh:" aside, I think people are suggesting that the two should match with some degree of accuracy, and they are disturbed that this isn't the case. I mean let's rationally think about this for a second. We have these exit polls that are normally fairly good at predicting outcomes and are based on the very mature science of statistics, and suddenly they don't match up (by a large amount) with actual results. None of that is in dispute.

It would make sense to me that there is some rational explanation for the difference. Some of you conservatives are pretty quick to jump on the explanation that the science must just be wrong, but I can't help but wonder why. Me personally, I put a great deal of faith in the scientific process, and unless I can come up with an explanation of what exactly was wrong with it in this particular case, I'm not going to trust a non-transparent voting process over very transparent statistical analysis for no good reason.

You laugh at the trust people place in science, but you put the same trust in a voting process you know very few details of. In any case, I think it's dumb to make any judgements about either. All we know is that they didn't match, I'd like to know why. Do we need better polling methods? Or better voting methods? Or did someone put too many zeros on a number? I'd like an explanation, and I think I'd feel the same even if I had voted for Bush.

Let me ask you this, why do you trust the voting process in the last election so much? Is it nothing more than because your guy won?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: BBond
A full analysis of the 2004 election is warranted.

Why is that, bob? Because you and others aren't happy with the outcome? Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?
:laugh:

CsG

Your ever present ":laugh:" aside, I think people are suggesting that the two should match with some degree of accuracy, and they are disturbed that this isn't the case. I mean let's rationally think about this for a second. We have these exit polls that are normally fairly good at predicting outcomes and are based on the very mature science of statistics, and suddenly they don't match up (by a large amount) with actual results. None of that is in dispute.

It would make sense to me that there is some rational explanation for the difference. Some of you conservatives are pretty quick to jump on the explanation that the science must just be wrong, but I can't help but wonder why. Me personally, I put a great deal of faith in the scientific process, and unless I can come up with an explanation of what exactly was wrong with it in this particular case, I'm not going to trust a non-transparent voting process over very transparent statistical analysis for no good reason.

You laugh at the trust people place in science, but you put the same trust in a voting process you know very few details of. In any case, I think it's dumb to make any judgements about either. All we know is that they didn't match, I'd like to know why. Do we need better polling methods? Or better voting methods? Or did someone put too many zeros on a number? I'd like an explanation, and I think I'd feel the same even if I had voted for Bush.

Let me ask you this, why do you trust the voting process in the last election so much? Is it nothing more than because your guy won?

So which to you trust? The exit polls(which have no paper back up nor way of recounting;) ) or the actual ballot count? You can try to make excuses all you want but the fact is - the poll was off. Methodology? maybe. Fraudulent polling? maybe. Oversample of certain people? probably. Could be any number of things. Heck, even the choices of where they take a sample could have just been "off" this time around. You think absentee balloting might have something to do with it - lots of people voted absentee.

Oh, and btw - I don't laugh at science - I just laugh at those that trust a poll over the actual vote:p If you guys want to win next time- get some better ideals and better candidates - don't try blaming it on the system. It's worked for how long? Yeah - I guess it's a farce since now some exit poll was off more than usual.

My position on the exit polls vs the actual vote doesn't depend on who won - but if it'll help you sleep - you can continue to think that.

Now are you going to answer the questions I asked(and you quoted)?
Do you think a full analysis is warranted because of the outcome?
Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?


:laugh:

CsG
 

Rogue

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
5,774
0
0
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah.

C'mon. No one noticed this guy's screen name? Aren't people always calling into question the source of a document and then they attack the person who posted it for their affiliations? C'mon now. I feel dumber for having to point out this glaring oversight and for those that responded before me with a real argument at all to this thread. I could be wrong, but......

 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
1
76
If there is no corruption, there is no reason to fear and allow a review of a public process especially when it is paid for by a 3rd party.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?[/b]

:laugh:

CsG

With all due respect to the election officials, I think the implication is that exit polls are normally quite accurate, and the question becomes: Was there a discrepancy between the 'real' ballots and the ones that actually counted?
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
308
126
Originally posted by: RainsfordYour ever present ":laugh:" aside, I think people are suggesting that the two should match with some degree of accuracy, and they are disturbed that this isn't the case. I mean let's rationally think about this for a second. We have these exit polls that are normally fairly good at predicting outcomes and are based on the very mature science of statistics, and suddenly they don't match up (by a large amount) with actual results. None of that is in dispute.

It would make sense to me that there is some rational explanation for the difference. Some of you conservatives are pretty quick to jump on the explanation that the science must just be wrong, but I can't help but wonder why. Me personally, I put a great deal of faith in the scientific process, and unless I can come up with an explanation of what exactly was wrong with it in this particular case, I'm not going to trust a non-transparent voting process over very transparent statistical analysis for no good reason.

You laugh at the trust people place in science, but you put the same trust in a voting process you know very few details of. In any case, I think it's dumb to make any judgements about either. All we know is that they didn't match, I'd like to know why. Do we need better polling methods? Or better voting methods? Or did someone put too many zeros on a number? I'd like an explanation, and I think I'd feel the same even if I had voted for Bush.

Let me ask you this, why do you trust the voting process in the last election so much? Is it nothing more than because your guy won?

I thought the Radical Republican Religious Right didn't believe in scientific explanations of anything. If that is true then no amount of logic is going to explain the discrepancy to them. The vote came out neatly and safely how it was forecasted, contrary to straw votes before or during the election process, therefore they must be correct.

:roll:
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: BBond
A full analysis of the 2004 election is warranted.
And feared and derided only by those for whom a careful analysis of the truth is an abhorence.

They spent how many millions doing that in Ohio while Dems screamed the same inane BS that is being posted here. Multiply that by every state. Then, after all the money is spent, Bush has an even bigger margin. The votes were counted as has been proscribed for decades. Should we go back and recount back to 1776? Then should we reinstate all of the "Real Winners"?

Then apply the Dem logic that was applied to the innaguration and complain that the money could be better spent on schools and welfare.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: jlmadyson
We'll get over it once we are satisfied there was no voting machine fraud before we digitize all the elections where you have no way of knowing if the results were counted correctly.

Ah hell, lets be serious there is no getting over it for the fringe in this country.

Ayup, 49% is fringe :roll: :cookie:

Amazing we got that many Dumb shixts in this country. Better than in Nov 1996 when Clinton actually got some 49%. That was really depressing.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?[/b]

:laugh:

CsG

With all due respect to the election officials, I think the implication is that exit polls are normally quite accurate, and the question becomes: Was there a discrepancy between the 'real' ballots and the ones that actually counted?

Sure, they might be a somewhat accurate predictor - but that doesn't mean they are more accurate than actual real votes:p You see, it seems people are looking for a way to validate their loss - well this isn't it. The left lost - they need to get over it. If they have a valid suggestion for increasing the actual ballot accuracy - then fine -but stop with the whining about the stupid exit polls. They are not real votes. There is no ballot you fill out. There is no paper trail. Nothing. The exit polls are much more easily skewed than actual real ballots so maybe they should check themselves before claiming the actual real ballot count was wrong.

CsG
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Sure, they might be a somewhat accurate predictor - but that doesn't mean they are more accurate than actual real votes:p You see, it seems people are looking for a way to validate their loss - well this isn't it. The left lost - they need to get over it. If they have a valid suggestion for increasing the actual ballot accuracy - then fine -but stop with the whining about the stupid exit polls. They are not real votes. There is no ballot you fill out. There is no paper trail. Nothing. The exit polls are much more easily skewed than actual real ballots so maybe they should check themselves before claiming the actual real ballot count was wrong.

CsG

Step one towards more accurate 'actual' votes is to stop the practice of eliminating paper trails that exists with some voting machines now.

Step two is to turn the running of the election over to an arms-length organization with non-contingent funding - i.e. no 'corporate' interest in the outcome of the election (nothing to gain, nothing to lose wrt continued responsibility, budget, etc).
 

pol II

Member
Oct 4, 2004
173
0
0
I think Cad hit it on the head; exit polls are a "predictor." The exit polls are just a small sampling of the total; a basic tenet of statistics is that power is increased as the sample size is increased. Had the sample size been enlarged, I believe that the exit polls would have been more representative of the outcome. But even then, there is still a chance of being wrong. Exit polling may very well have been accurate in the past, but that cannot be applied to this election because each trial (election) is separate and independent. Past successful predictions cannot be used to bolster the efficacy of future predictions.

Plus, as stated earlier, some of those polled may very well have lied. There would have to be an estimate of those that did not tell the truth incorporated into the equation.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
CsG again shows that he is utterly clueless about fairly simple issues. Yes, CsG, exit polls are a very accurate predictor of the final results. In the Ukraine last month less difference between the announced results and exit polls made the US (and other) observers cry "wolf" (well, "fraud"). What is really alarming in this case is that the precincts with paper ballots showed no discrepancy. Is this significant? Maybe yes, maybe no, that's why those guys are trying to do an in-depth analysis. Your profound question "Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?" made me wonder what kind of school you go to as even hair stylist schools require just a trace of thinking and analytical ability which seems to absent in all your posts. Even a superficial reading of the article in the link will reveal that the dicrepancy is mostly in the places where there were no ballots, just electronic voting. In other words, there were no "real" ballots. Where there were "real" ballots (as in pieces of paper where you mark your choice), there was no discrepancy.

This election could have been stollen, or not (my personal opinion is it was not). But to ridicule people who want to get to the bottom of the mystery shows utter contempt for the will of people of this great country.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
pol II, if you knew anything about statisctics you'll know that a tiny, but correcly chosen random sample is an excellent predictor of the true properties of the whole set. There are about 80 million or so registerd voters . A typical poll is 1000-3000 people, yet this is usually enough. The difficult part is to choose your polling sample correctly. The exit pollers could have made a mistake there (as was the original explanation), but apparently the new study refutes that explanation.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
We'll get over it once we are satisfied there was no voting machine fraud before we digitize all the elections where you have no way of knowing if the results were counted correctly.

You must be still turning in your sleep over every election since you were born then.
There will always be some irregularities due to the sheer size of the election.

Basically what you are saying is you wont be happy until somehow Ohio goes to John F Kerry.

kk

We have these exit polls that are normally fairly good at predicting outcomes and are based on the very mature science of statistics, and suddenly they don't match up (by a large amount) with actual results.

They werent accurate in the 2000 election and they werent accurate in the 2002 senate races. So what makes this years inaccuracies such a big deal?!?!?!?!?

 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: fornax
CsG again shows that he is utterly clueless about fairly simple issues. Yes, CsG, exit polls are a very accurate predictor of the final results. In the Ukraine last month less difference between the announced results and exit polls made the US (and other) observers cry "wolf" (well, "fraud"). What is really alarming in this case is that the precincts with paper ballots showed no discrepancy. Is this significant? Maybe yes, maybe no, that's why those guys are trying to do an in-depth analysis. Your profound question "Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?" made me wonder what kind of school you go to as even hair stylist schools require just a trace of thinking and analytical ability which seems to absent in all your posts. Even a superficial reading of the article in the link will reveal that the dicrepancy is mostly in the places where there were no ballots, just electronic voting. In other words, there were no "real" ballots. Where there were "real" ballots (as in pieces of paper where you mark your choice), there was no discrepancy.

This election could have been stollen, or not (my personal opinion is it was not). But to ridicule people who want to get to the bottom of the mystery shows utter contempt for the will of people of this great country.

:thumbsup:
 

pol II

Member
Oct 4, 2004
173
0
0
Fornax: wow, what a friendly response.

Um, okay, please tell me how to go about "correctly choosing" a random sample. If I do that, then it cannot, by definition, be random.

One cannot simply pick and choose the sample sets and data points that suppport the hypothesis. All samples must be used.

Many polls containing 600 to 3000 people generally calculate sampling error at the 95 percent confidence level using the following equation: (SQRT(.25/sample size))*1.96. In a close race the "statistical dead-heat" is called by TV and radio stations. Variances are reported (from my recollection) in the two to six point range. This is yet more evidence that we need to consider the bigger picture rather than just the mean values of small sample sizes.

The new study does not refute the explanation that the exit pollers made a "mistake." It challenges the hypothesis that the WPE was skewed towards more Kerry voters cooperating with pollsters than Bush voters. They, in fact, suggest the opposite was true.

One thing that both studies agreed on was that random sampling error could account for the discrepancy.
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Q]Ayup, 49% is fringe :roll: :cookie:[/quote]

The fringe, i.e. you, is the extreme left-wing of the party. A smaller proportion than you may think. All in all having nothing better to do than espouse these views all day long so others may buy into them. They will be at it for lifetime because that is what they revolve around. Its all one big conspiracy that were all living in and the supposed Neocons, whoever that might be, is going to burn the world up and rob us all at the same time.

Have you awakened yet? This isn't my reallity, is it yours?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: fornax
CsG again shows that he is utterly clueless about fairly simple issues. Yes, CsG, exit polls are a very accurate predictor of the final results. In the Ukraine last month less difference between the announced results and exit polls made the US (and other) observers cry "wolf" (well, "fraud"). What is really alarming in this case is that the precincts with paper ballots showed no discrepancy. Is this significant? Maybe yes, maybe no, that's why those guys are trying to do an in-depth analysis. Your profound question "Do you think these exit polls are more accurate than the real ballots?" made me wonder what kind of school you go to as even hair stylist schools require just a trace of thinking and analytical ability which seems to absent in all your posts. Even a superficial reading of the article in the link will reveal that the dicrepancy is mostly in the places where there were no ballots, just electronic voting. In other words, there were no "real" ballots. Where there were "real" ballots (as in pieces of paper where you mark your choice), there was no discrepancy.

This election could have been stollen, or not (my personal opinion is it was not). But to ridicule people who want to get to the bottom of the mystery shows utter contempt for the will of people of this great country.

If you would have read what I posted you'd realize that I understand that they are a predictor, and a somewhat accurate one at that - but that in NO WAY means they are more accurate than ACTUAL votes:p
Also, like I said(and you ignored) the exit polls are much more easily manipulated than ACTUAL VOTES. Do the pollsters have a paper trail? (no) There is no way to know their sample reflects the actual vote. Can they come close? sure - but for people to whine and gnash their teeth over ~5% difference is more than a tad absurd - it borders on insanity. There is no "mystery" - it's just another conspiracy theory for the cry-baby left to use to help them sleep at night - not some great "for the will of people" cause.:roll:

****

Again(your second post) - you can't seem to get past the "predictor" part. No one is saying they aren't excellent predictors - but they sure as hell aren't as accurate as the ACTUAL VOTE. If their poll was off - they need to check their sample - not claim it was some conspiracy or rigged election. No, the new study doesn't refute that. They claim the WPE study suggesting more kerry voters wanted to participate was not accurate.


*shrug* whatever keeps people's sheets dry I guess...

:laugh:

CsG
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Prominent Sore loser, Sour grapes, Crybaby lefty Statisticians Refute 'Explanation' of 2004 U.S. Exit Poll Discrepancies in New Edison/Mitofsky Report and Urge Investigation of U.S. Presidential Election Results

Fixed!!
 

HeaterCore

Senior member
Dec 22, 2004
442
0
0
Sheesh, even I will admit that Bush took this election fair and square -- and I was the lead researcher for a book called The Lies of George W. Bush. To think he somehow stole this one requires the same mindset that thinks that the Mossad planned 9/11, or that a missile hit the Pentagon rather than a plane; you have to be so convinced of the rightness of your cause that you're willing to construct improbably elaborate and widespread conspiracies rather than deal with reality.

Do you realize how many people would be required to pull off an election fraud on this scale? Nearly 3 million votes? And you sincerely believe that not a single person involved in the conspiracy would've gotten a little disgruntled, perhaps, and gone to the press? Or does the GOP control the entire media, as well (and not just Fox News)?

Look, it's time to stop bitching about this crap and to move on to the next issue: making sure this clown doesn't dig us too much deeper in debt, push the entire world into hating all of us (rather than just him), or start stringing people up for saying the Lord's Prayer incorrectly.

-HC-
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Why not? If it's proven there was no fraud, I have no problem accepting the will of the people.
But I am all for evaluating the accuracy and possible fraud involving electronic voting before we jump head first into it.
You do realize these are just bits on an electronic memory card? They can be easily overwritten in software, hardware, or even by a cosmic ray hitting a storage element and flipping its state. I would certainly not take the manufacturer's claim of accuracy for granted when it comes to something that could destroy our democratic process if improperly used and monitored. If someone can at will change the vote counts with impunity, our votes become meaningless. So if there is something fishy, it has to be gotten to the very bottom of, and any chance of this has to be eliminated.
The Dems didn't like the paper ballots after the last election. They don't like the electronic replacements for them that were used in this election. The only thing similar between the two is that the Dems lost both. Maybe that's why some of us are a little skeptical.

Sorry, Jeb Bush implemented touchless systems in Florida without a paper trail which went against state law. Dems in Congress tried to get a bill through that required paper trails on DRE machines nationwide. The Republicans shot it down.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,535
48,051
136
With some of the sleezy things the GOP has done in the past, I wouldn't have a problem looking into the elections results. The current admin in particular has shown on many occasions to have a serious deficit in integrity and accountability - a broad review only makes sense, especially as Bush is the most divisive president I think we've ever had. And enough with the 'you lost, get over it!' routine, you guys sound like total idiots. When was verification a bad thing? Certainly seemed to be ok with the RR in Oregon. Pot, meet kettle...

 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
308
126
How many here signed the pledge to support him during the 2004 election?

I was going to vote for him up until I saw the shenanigans here in Omaha. His cronies followed two elderly ladies out to their car and confiscated their tickets to see him. They arrived in a public parking lot with a "Vote Kerry" sticker on the rear bumper; they borrowed a daughter's car. When onlookers noticed they were walking to the convention center they informed on the old ladies and an announcement informed them they had a problem with their car. When they went out to investigate the problem their tickets were confiscated.

That wasn't the only thing confiscated. A few dozen people complained they were forced to leave their cameras - one an $8000 cutting edge digital - at the door and when they went to reclaim them afterwards they were informed that the property was permanently confiscated for security reasons. Talk about ticking people off. The police did nothing to help out. Apparently turning your property over because of coersion of not being able to attend is not illegal; the property was turned over by willing participants of the event. Nobody ever found out what happened to the cameras, but I bet the pawn shops down the street probably saw them come through their doors.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Executive summary of the report:

The authors list several reported problems with the election. They claim the exit polls are the only reliable way to evaluate the integrity of the election due to these discrepancies. Exit polls suggest that Kerry should have received 5.5% more of the popular vote.

The organizations that actually performed the exit polls claim that the error was with their own sampling procedures, and that more Kerry voters volunteered to be . The authors summarily dismiss this due to lack of evidence, then submit that Bush voters were actually overrepresented such that the margin for Kerry should have actually been greater than the 2.5% suggested by the polls. They offer no evidence of this.

The authors then consider three possible causes for the discrepancy between exit poll results and actual election results:
1. Statistical sampling error ? or chance
2. Inaccurate exit polls ? Kerry supporters responded in greater numbers than Bush supporters.
3. Inaccurate election ? the voters? intent was not accurately recorded or counted.

They, and the polling firms, ruled out #1, since the polls were conducted in accord with standard procedures. They do some handwaving to throw out three results that are completely and grossly out of line with the actual vote count (>4 standard deviations off), then claim that the rest of the results are pretty close to a normal distribution. To me, the fact that three states were this far off says that something is wrong with the methodology. The authors then throw out some extraneously large numbers to overstate how small a chance there is of some of the disparities, again assuming that the proper methodologies were used. So, now we're left with a normally distributed result that is shifted one standard deviation from the expected mean (bias towards Kerry in the exit polls). Fair enough.

#2 - The polling companies rule out possible sources of bias due to exit polling error except for the random voter selection process. ?While we cannot measure the
completion rate by Democratic and Republican voters, hypothetical completion rates of 56% among Kerry voters and 50% among Bush voters overall would account for the entire Within Precinct Error that we observed in 2004.? The authors then present a graph that they claim counters the report by showing that more exit poll participation was received in precincts that went for Bush. The graph is a shoddy piece of work, besides being clearly fashioned to support the agenda of the authors. If I put a figure like that in a lab report, I would likely get kicked out of school - it's that bad. :D That aside, the conclusions that they draw from this single graph are questionable at best, bordering on complete conjecture. But, to this point, the authors state that it is unlikely that these two factors had anything to do with the skew of exit poll results versus real election results. They pin the blame solely on #3.

#3 - The authors state "The many anecdotal reports of voting irregularities create a context in which the possibility that the overall vote count was substantially corrupted must be taken seriously." Appealing to anecdotal evidence to declare vote fraud in a presidential election is a bit of a stretch. They complain that the polling companies did not publish a number of important statistical testing results that could give a better picture, but it does not appear that any attempt was made to contact the polling companies to get the data to test themselves. Sounds to me like they would prefer to sweep it under the rug of 'conspiracy' rather than get to the bottom of it, as these tests are really trivial to complete (I could do it by myself on my computer in a matter of minutes).

And, the closing line: "We invite all those who care about democratic processes in this country to join us in fully investigating and explaining what really happened in the 2004 Presidential election."

It looks like a couple PhD's from around the country wanted to raise a ruckus so they spent an afternoon throwing together a 5 page summary of someone else's report. They didn't offer any statistical evidence of their own, instead just conjecturing on the soure of disparity. It should be pretty clear to anyone who reads this paper that the authors knew their conclusions before they started their work. Sorry, but I'm definitely not impressed.