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Progressives: Obama remarks are condescending
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Red Dawn
Elite Member
Well he hasn't fixed it.
HumblePie
Lifer
Wait what??? The girl I know with an MBA in business for Japanese culture tells me something completely different than what you are stating here. I have a feeling she is right and you are wrong there.
You have no clue what Japanese culture is either. Did you know the most often used word there is sumimasen. Which is a word with several meanings and typically means all of it's meanings at once. This word means, pardon, excuse me, sorry, and I beg your indulgence.
It is used when you want to start a conversation with someone you don't know, interrupt someone else, bump into someone by accident, and/or stand to close to someone even as examples.
A standard greeting over there would be "Hajime mashite dozo yoroshiku." Which literally translate into, "Pleased to meet you for the first time, please be kind to me." The please be kind to me part actually has two meanings and the other meaning is "I am in your hands." It means both at once.
The Japanese culture is a polite culture and a submissive one by western standards when dealing with formal interactions. This is why a bow is a standard greeting there instead of a handshake. It shows deference, respect, and willingness to be communal. It is not a sign of lowering oneself despite the hogwash some of the people around here such as irishscott portray it as.
trenchfoot
Lifer
Thanks for clearing that up. But all you're doing is stating the obvious to the impartial individuals here, and humiliating those whose agenda is to pound away at Pres. Obama for political gain, TRUTH BE DAMNED.
Isn't it so much fun to peek under their skirts and see that their panties are soiled rotten and full of holes? lol
I disagree...things have definitely turned around. They may not yet be "good," but to argue things haven't been "fixed" doesn't seem accurate.
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
Excellent interpretation of Japanese culture. However bowing in a western culture is a sign of submission and simple minds cannot comprehend the subtle differences between the cultures.
..
HumblePie
Lifer
Correct, from Europe it was to "bow and scrape" from a court perspective, and even in the Middle East, bowing is a sign of submission to the will of Allah and must be done daily.
Genuflection in Europe was done out of differences in rank. The lower rank you were in relation to someone else, the bigger the bow you had to do. The only exception was for stage performers, which did a bow out of respect to the audience.
East Asian culture has entirely different meanings attach to bowing. They also know that those not of their culture may not know all the subtle clues about how bowing is done to convey different emotions. Anyhow, this is off the original topic, but I find it stupid when people perpetuate complete falsehoods on these forums. I call out all such idiotic remarks when I see them. Glad I'm not pres. because I would speak my mind more often than not and piss too many people off in the doing.
Scotteq
Diamond Member
You sir, would be better off keeping your mouth shut about issues you clearly have no clue about.
As far as Bowing in (modern) Japan: It's the equivalent of a handshake. Foreigners aren't expected to (and even most younger Japanese don't) understand the subtle gradiations which used to represent relative position. Neither is that actively taught in schools any more. You'd have to pursue external instruction to learn it. (Think on the order of taking Ikebana {flower arrangement} or Kendo, or learning various Tea Ceremonies, or the ceremonies and rituals surrounding Sumo.) It's part of the culture. You see it on TV. But in real life, nobody does that any more. At most, it's reserved for special occasions - For example, a businessman has a meeting with a representative of Japan's Royal Family. He doesn't really know this stuff because it's not important to his daily life, right? So he calls an instructor to teach him what he needs to know (...at this point.. say these words... bow so your eye level reaches 'shirt button', or whatever), so he can get through the meeting without causing offense.
When you shake hands in the US, you're supposed to keep your wrist straight (not bend the other guys hand backwards to assert dominance like some people like to try to do), give a firm shake, and look the other guy in the eyes. Right? Who the hell teaches that any more? Nobody, unless maybe your dad told you.
To continue with the earlier example: Just because hundreds of years ago it was necessary in Europe to understand the intracasies surrounding Genuflection... understand that NOBODY DOES THAT ANY MORE. Same in Japan, except there are people still living (WW2 generation and older) who would remember such detailia. In Europe, the individuals who practiced/understood genuflection are all dead and have been for probably half a dozen generations.
Anyways: In Japan, bowing is the social equivalent of a Handshake. And don't attempt to tell me otherwise until you've lived there for the better part of a decade (1987~1995), like I did. Because you'd be wrong.
On a semi related topic: This is the same kind of social ignorance where you end up with people prattling on about "...subservient Japanese (oriental.. whatever) Women" when they clearly have NOT been in a long term relationship with one. Rather, the ability to say such a thing is merely a strong indicator the speaker is clueless...
**********
even further OT:
I hear Japanese guys pay money to see pictures like that... 😱😱D:😱
And apparently, getting the 'prospect' in a social position where Bowing is necessary helps achieve superior camera angles. 😉
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irishScott
Lifer
Well thanks for the enlightenment, but you still didn't address anything about the depth of the bow. That is, to my knowledge, the issue. Short bow = respect. Deeper bow = "deference to a superior". At least that's what I've heard. I'm not above admitting I'm wrong if you've got evidence to the contrary.
And even if the bow was valid, methinks there's a reason it's somewhat lacking in precedence by other world leaders. Also, I would think that before greeting a foreign leader Obama would have been at least basically educated in the appropriate customs.
Scotteq
Diamond Member
I addressed eveything: Foreigners are not expected to know, or to understand any of the things you are going on about. Therefore it is rather asinine to interpret deference, from respect, from subservience. In short, your ideas are antiquated, conpletely disconnected from current social reality, and have the strong appearance of reflecting a personal political agenda looking for a flaw to exploit.
It's really simple: When one is a guest in someone elses home/territory/country, it is POLITE - (No More, and No Less) - to address them as is their custom. When they come here, they shake hands. When we go there, we offer a polite bow.
i.e. - When I visited my ex's grandparents, I bowed, said "O~jamashimasu", and took off my shoes when I walked in the door. Her grandmother said "Dozo", and escorted me in to meet her Grandfather, where I said "O~jamashimasu" again, bowed again, and received the expected grunt in return. Why? Because it's proper social etiquette for the setting I found myself in. No More, and certainly No Less (After all - I'm not a mouth breathing douche who thinks the rest of the world has to revolve around my personal interpretations of what is and is not meaningful.) When my ex came to the US and met my family? They shook hands. She even (the horror!!) *HUGGED* my mother!?!?! Such a thing is Unthinkable in Japan!! OMGOMGOMG!!!
Why?!? Because my ex was nice, and didn't want to cause offense despite certain aspects of American (Italian American, at that) culture being at odds with her personal upbringing and therefore uncomfortable at first.
You are WAY off base with your bowing argument. So please stop trying to redirect it into some asinine interpretation as to the subtlties of the meaning of Depth of a Bow that we're not really supposed to understand in the first place.
Regarding the President "at least being educated in the basics of a foreign culture"!?!?
WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK HE BOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!?
Because his advisors told him to say this, and do that.. So because he does the polite thing for the locality he found himself in, he/we now have to suffer with the asinine ravings of some political hack wannabe with a fucking protractor!?!?
You, sir, are best served by letting the entire matter drop.
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irishScott
Lifer
I asked an honest question and expected an honest answer. Sorry if that doesn't fit into that nice little partisan hack pigeonhole you seem determined to shove me into. And you say I have a political agenda?
So your answer is "I don't know, but foreigners aren't expected to know so it's a moot point." Thanks for that. I'll expect more out of my President. Hell I'd expect more out of myself if I ever got the opportunity to meet a foreign leader. You can interpret that however you like.
In the meantime, this is debate. Sorry if my actually defending my potentially flawed point enrages you so. If you have anything other than forum rage, I'm listening.
shut the fuck up already. i want my fucking president to be elitist you moron why the fuck would i want some dumb ass average joe?
Scotteq
Diamond Member
And you got your honest answer: You neither know nor understand enough about current Japanese culture to make such a judgement.
/end
irishScott
Lifer
I got "I don't know if you're wrong, but here's why you're stupid." Followed by a series of irrelevant details.
The question at hand is: "Given his position as the President of the United States, does a deep bow such as the one Obama used show an inordinate amount of submission as per modern Japanese culture?"
So far I've brought in circumstantial evidence that most other world leaders do not bow when greeting the Emperor of Japan, and those that do are much shallower and respectful rather than deep and submissive. I've also mentioned multiple news organizations that state it was inappropriate and I'm willing to provide links if you doubt me on that. Note I never cited my own expertise on Japanese culture, as you have. In fact, that's all you've cited.
Your argument: "I don't know, but foreigners aren't expected to know so it's OK!" Which does nothing more than admit that "you don't know." Combine that admission with the fact that you've cited your life in Japan, and you've effectively invalidated your own expertise for this topic. Funny how logic works isn't it?
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Scotteq
Diamond Member
Except for the fact that HumblePie was the one who cited a 3rd party, whereas I actually lived in Japan for most of a Decade...
Regarding whether or not the President should bow at all... That is a matter of Protocol decided by the State Department. Not to mention the President and his administration have issued words to the effect that as a country we would no longer take the approach we are "better" than anyone. Greeting foreign leaders on their own turf in a manner befitting their own culture makes perfect sense in that light. Doesn't it?
So the only thing you have left is whether or not you think the President did it "right". Yet you have no basis or direct experience with Japanese culture to make such a judgment.
Amazing how logic works...
{edit - and for the record: I do not like the current administration. Just that I think arguments over interpretations over the meaning of the depth of a bow are stupid, and that (your) efforts would be better served spent on issues that actually matter. Such as: On the one hand (rightfully) blaming the last crew for the Deficit that existed when they took power... Which is well and good.. Except they're making said accusations as the means to distract us from the fact the CURRENT guys are doing their damndest to make the last crew look like a bunch of miserly spendthrifts... }
Regarding whether or not the President should bow at all... That is a matter of Protocol decided by the State Department. Not to mention the President and his administration have issued words to the effect that as a country we would no longer take the approach we are "better" than anyone. Greeting foreign leaders on their own turf in a manner befitting their own culture makes perfect sense in that light. Doesn't it?
So the only thing you have left is whether or not you think the President did it "right". Yet you have no basis or direct experience with Japanese culture to make such a judgment.
Amazing how logic works...
{edit - and for the record: I do not like the current administration. Just that I think arguments over interpretations over the meaning of the depth of a bow are stupid, and that (your) efforts would be better served spent on issues that actually matter. Such as: On the one hand (rightfully) blaming the last crew for the Deficit that existed when they took power... Which is well and good.. Except they're making said accusations as the means to distract us from the fact the CURRENT guys are doing their damndest to make the last crew look like a bunch of miserly spendthrifts... }
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irishScott
Lifer
Ah, my bad. Fixed. Even so my argument stands. You still admit you don't know the answer to my question. All you've done is generalize. I'm not asking if bows are appropriate in general, I'm not asking about how Japanese greet each other or relatives. I'm asking what I asked in the last post. Get back to me when you have some valid information relating to it.
irishScott
Lifer
You don't debate much do you? All of those points are irrelevant. I have sources upon which to base my opinion on this specific matter. You know the question, now stop answering other questions you'd like me to have asked and get back to me when you can answer it. Honestly I'm beginning to think you're just insecure that you spent all that time in Japan and still don't know the answer.
You did however, glance the question by mentioning that the state department determines proper protocol. Now if you could only narrow the scope to the specific question asked...
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
I often see this shit from all sides of the spectrum and it's fucking daft.
See, you as an idividual don't know sheit about nothing but your own situation and perhaps a pet project that you have taken an interest in, a politician has to take EVERYTHING into consideration.
That's why Obama doesn't change what he cannot change without taking into account what it would mean, sure, if he was a populist he would just remove the troops, it's not like he hasn't got the power to do so but he has formulated a plan to make the transition smooth... how very... WRONG OF HIM, or so say the republican twats who won't give a seconds thought to the soldiers in the area, except at the beginning when it was all about "amurika fuck ya" and while they did cheer at the massive bombings killing tens of thousands, they won't admit that they did exactly what they accuse muslims of doing after 9/11, cheer for civilians dying, mostly because they, just like those muslims don't believe that the other side are innocent, none of them.
And then they have the fucking gall to claim to be Christians? Plan in eye, ring a bell?
I swear, people are just fucked in the head on both sides.
HumblePie
Lifer
Even a deep bow in Japan is not subservience. It can mean humility, apology, and/or greater respect. It would certainly NOT be interpreted as subservience when coming from the leader of a country. Now if he was kneeling while bowing, THEN you have argument and I would concur. Your lack of knowledge on foreign customs does not mean you should go around spouting off dribble as fact as if you were an authority on the subject. If you are not sure, then ask and you would get a polite response back. When you make an initial inflammatory statement such as your original one, then you come off sounding like a jackass in any culture.
Scotteq
Diamond Member
Source?? That YouTube Video? You're actually citing YouTube!?!? laughable...
Here: http://gojapan.about.com/cs/etiquetteinjapan/a/bowing.htm
He's the President. On an Official and Public Visit. One would fully expect he would use a formal bow.
{Edit: In Japan, they described his bow as "Gracious". A litle fact which thoroughly invalidates your position. } http://worldfocus.org/blog/2009/11/30/obamas-gracious-bow-receives-thumbs-up-in-japan/8641/
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Turin39789
Lifer
irishScott
Lifer
That dribble came from valid news sources, including CBS of all organizations.
The original comment was meant to be inflammatory. I was called out and I was bashing Obama. This is P&N after all. I then got more inflammatory responses in return and, up until now, got even more even after asking for where other people were getting their facts from. After stating my own sources.
In any case, thanks for the info. Good to know. Now I'm forced to come up with some other reason to bash him. 😉
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