Progress is made through Liberalism, not Conservatism

[Genx87]

A few anecdotal stories dumbed down to talking points. This is you guys world you live in, taylored and packaged for the stupid to digest.

You arent paying attention. They are now rationing gas. This is 2 weeks after the storm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/new-york-gas-shortage-photos_n_2102722.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...o_rationing_in_new_york_city_long_island.html

 

[Steeplerot]

You arent paying attention. They are now rationing gas. This is 2 weeks after the storm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/new-york-gas-shortage-photos_n_2102722.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...o_rationing_in_new_york_city_long_island.html

Good. Hopefully they start using transit more and get off the oil. Be nice to see this spread so we can get the renewable ball rolling even faster.

 

[werepossum]

Internationally and philosophically, the US is a liberal democracy and we are all basically liberals. What conservatives today in America are, are a slightly different strain of this liberalism than non-conservatives. You are being sloppy by mixing and terms and contexts. Ignorant people and hacks do this all the time. Time, place, and political context means a lot. You might try and compare "liberalism" and "conservatism" today, in America... and start by defining those terms first. Otherwise you're practicing stupidity. I'm sure almost all conservatives today in America believe in life, liberty, and property. I'm sure nearly all believe in free speech, fair elections, and due process.

This is a fail thread.

The battle between conservatism and liberalism, the way you're presenting it, is much more a conflict between those with power and those without. Those who had power wanted to conserve it. New ideas and change was a threat.

Myself and people I know who call themselves conservatives to some degree are not trying to conserve power and we are not against new ideas and change. We are against bad ideas or change for the sake of change. What we believe is that an adaptive, dynamic society that excels and progresses is more the result of a smaller government with free minds and free trade than central planning and oppressive government meddling.

I know exactly what you are trying to do. Make dumb comparisons to paint a deceiving picture. I do not think a partisan like yourself could do otherwise. There is no honesty or sincerity is what you're doing, you're just playing the brainless political game like a good exploited little minion.

Two excellent posts. I'd add that often progress was made by those who were very conservative politically. Three-field agriculture and the rigid collar plow harness were developed and implemented by feudal lords and abbots because they had the accumulated capital to withstand failure, yet these same men were the staunchest advocates of preserving the existing polities. By contrast, peasants would no doubt have loved to see political change, but progress meant taking a risk that could easily make the difference between near subsistence and starvation.

It was the same in the towns, as those who were most liberal about the existing order and were successful then became the most conservative politically once they acquired wealth and power, even as they drove innovation (read: progress) to increase their own wealth and power. Then as now, conservatives were not against change per se, only change they perceived as bad.

I could also point out that our left-right struggle is no longer classical liberalism versus conservatism; that battle was won with the founding of our nation. Today's struggle is between the progressive movement (in many ways antithetical to classical liberalism) and a conservatism based on Judeo-Christian philosophy AND the benefits of a classically liberal capitalist society within a republic with widespread democratic representation.

 

[nehalem256]

Good. Hopefully they start using transit more and get off the oil. Be nice to see this spread so we can get the renewable ball rolling..

So your idea of progress is the elimination of the automobile...

 

[sigurros81]

You arent paying attention. They are now rationing gas. This is 2 weeks after the storm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/new-york-gas-shortage-photos_n_2102722.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...o_rationing_in_new_york_city_long_island.html

Stories like these are fine examples of how dependent we are on fossil energy. We are pretty much attached at the hip. Yet the idea of alternative energy are ludicrous in the eyes of conservatism.

 

[werepossum]

Good. Hopefully they start using transit more and get off the oil. Be nice to see this spread so we can get the renewable ball rolling even faster.

Nice spin. Progress through incompetence anyone?

Stories like these are fine examples of how dependent we are on fossil energy. We are pretty much attached at the hip. Yet the idea of alternative energy are ludicrous in the eyes of conservatism.

Let's see how quickly the natural gas and coal plants recover compared to solar and wind farms, shall we?

 

[Steeplerot]

So your idea of progress is the elimination of the automobile...

For rural areas? No. In the short term at least.

This country is in a self centered apathetic bubble partly because of people isolating themselves with autos and TV sets for so long. The baby boomers (foxnews retirees) are a great example of how screwed up your mindset gets when being raised by mass media. They fall for anything that comes out of the box/radio. The 20th century is over folks, welcome to the 21st.

Do you think society can just carry on like this? If so you are fooling yourself.

 

[Genx87]

So your idea of progress is the elimination of the automobile...

His idea of progress is relying on govt to provide you with a standard of life. His response to not knowing wtf was going on in NYC was that people should rely on a govt run mass transit system. Much like the serfs who dervived their standards of life from their lord or king.

 

[Genx87]

Stories like these are fine examples of how dependent we are on fossil energy. We are pretty much attached at the hip. Yet the idea of alternative energy are ludicrous in the eyes of conservatism.

Well no shit we are dependent on fossil fuels and will be for decades to come. It isnt the idea of alternative energy is ludcrious in the eyes of conservatism. It is that it is ludcrous to rely on it given its high cost, low supply, and unreadiness of the technology today. In other words, ludicrous through the eyes of reality.

 

[Steeplerot]

His idea of progress is relying on govt to provide you with a standard of life. His response to not knowing wtf was going on in NYC was that people should rely on a govt run mass transit system. Much like the serfs who dervived their standards of life from their lord or king.

Next time you get pulled over and taxed by a cop/pay for plates/taxes/road rage over a drunk idiot just remember, I ride the train happily meeting neighbors and having fun.

Horrible, horrible serfdom. Oh noes!

 

[Genx87]

Next time you get pulled over and taxed by a cop while I ride the train happily meeting neighbors and having fun let me know all about that horrible serfdom.

Sure thing provided you let me know how long it takes to get to that neighbor and on a schedule set by somebody other than you.

 

[Steeplerot]

Sure thing provided you let me know how long it takes to get to that neighbor and on a schedule set by somebody other than you.

I set my own schedule. Just go to the website and put in "arrive by 7pm". No traffic, no big government speed traps, no raging at other drivers, no tickets.


I can leave a bar/club at will when I want to go home and hop on the train even if I had a drink or two. You? You are a prisoner of your own making.

 

[Moonbeam]

If we were to look at human progress as the journey of an animal evolving through time, we could liken it to a brain, the liberal part, dragging it's asshole along behind. What part the asshole represents is, of course, obvious.

Naturally the unwilling part, given quite naturally to envy, lives in a fanciful altered reality that it and not the brain is responsible for all of this. Thus it is that at every incremental step forward the brain drags it, it tries to dig its claws in deeply and set up shop selling bits and pieces of bull shit as peacock feathers to adorn its ego.

 

[Genx87]

I set my own schedule. Just go to the website and put in "arrive by 7pm". No traffic, no speed traps, no raging at other drivers.

Oh I didnt realize you can call a train and have it drop you off at your friends doorstep. Some things you just dont get. But that is because your world view consists of bowing before the govt to provide you with things.

 

[sigurros81]

Well no shit we are dependent on fossil fuels and will be for decades to come. It isnt the idea of alternative energy is ludcrious in the eyes of conservatism. It is that it is ludcrous to rely on it given its high cost, low supply, and unreadiness of the technology today. In other words, ludicrous through the eyes of reality.

Progress does not come overnight. Conservatism, especially in the political realm, does not even entertain the potential of new energy, they're happy with the status quo.

 

[Steeplerot]

Oh I didnt realize you can call a train and have it drop you off at your friends doorstep. Some things you just dont get. But that is because your world view consists of bowing before the govt to provide you with things.

My worldview is I dont see a need to pay all this money for a car and be tied down and pay the government a bunch of money to pollute/be lazy/fat and as a bonus, I get to meet and interact with my neighbors.

You are just as entitled to road infrastructure. Except your lifestyle causes harm to all of us. But you dont care. Hopefully you never breed.

 

[sigurros81]

I would happily ride a train if where I live have a mass transit system that is properly executed.

 

[Steeplerot]

I would happily ride a train if where I live have a mass transit system that is properly executed.

Tell your city to stop wasting money on roads that promote internal combustion and get some infrastructure going in your town.

To live in a city where people are forced to drive with no choice is like living in backwards Somalia.

Not havin it. At least there's toilet paper I hear.

 

[sigurros81]

My worldview is I dont see a need to pay all this money for a car and be tied down and pay the government a bunch of money to pollute/be lazy/fat and as a bonus, I get to meet and interact with my neighbors.

You are just as entitled to road infrastructure. Except your lifestyle causes harm to all of us. But you dont care. Hopefully you never breed.

A bit extreme towards the end but yes, that's pretty much the foundation of a conservative's mindset. Entitlement and selfishness.

 

[Steeplerot]

A bit extreme towards the end.

True, but then conservatives said it was pointless/radical to string up electricity to poor/rural folks houses also in the 1930s.

Once again, their excuse was profits, luckily back then people were not so lied to by corporate PR and brushed their nonsense aside.

 

[Matt1970]

Devisng new ways to fuck people over in the name of the almighty dollar doesn't qualify as "progress."

Around here we call that taxation.

 

[sigurros81]

Interesting read:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...clean-energy-economy-u-s-rejected-in-80s.html

Yes, the green energy movement will stumble and fall along the way, but that is how progress will be made. And again, this renewable energy movement, I'm only using as an example to support my original post. I love to hear the opposing views, and I will fully acknowledge what you have to say if it's backed with intelligence. All I've seen so far in this thread from people who disagree with me are anything but on topic.

 

[Steeplerot]

Interesting read:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...clean-energy-economy-u-s-rejected-in-80s.html

Yes, the green energy movement will stumble and fall along the way, but that is how progress will be made. And again, this renewable energy movement, I'm only using as an example to support my original post. I love to hear the opposing views, and I will fully acknowledge what you have to say if it's backed with intelligence. All I've seen so far in this thread from people who disagree with me are anything but on topic.

This is the future, USA is being left in the dust while the apologists for the energy monopoly corporations just repeat their spin.


A big problem with having so many conservatives is they have no sense of outside of the USA. Or blindly think that by default America always does things better.

This is why we get nowhere with energy or stuff like heathcare that works so much better elsewhere.

USA Republican Uber Alles. These folks are dumbing us all down, America cannot adapt if we are run by a bunch of "our team right or wrong" fundie bullshit.

The modern conservative is a perfect example of why pure capitalism sucks, it dumbs down consumers to sell stuff through lying. Totally self-destructive and hell bent on getting theirs or crashing the whole thing out if they dont get their way.

 

[poohbear]

well there's a saying: "a Conservative merely conserves what Liberals before him established". Modern day conservatives would be considered extreme liberals a century ago.

 

[Steeplerot]

well there's a saying: "a Conservative merely conserves what Liberals before him established". Modern day conservatives would be considered extreme liberals a century ago.

100 years ago their was a actual labor movement, and a actual left. We even had a third party. Dunno, I dont think civilization is a static line like that, it has its ups and down. (whenever religious/conservatives combine power with big industry..somehow its always down) hmm. (dark ages of Europe for example)

This is why so many right wingers 100 years ago looked up to Mussolini, for the first time it seemed the right had found a conservative who could actually provide real-world results.

Too bad it was all more PR. Italy/Mussolini was weak and only held up by corrupt private industry and lies.