Programming Courses question.

[B.def]

Do many of the businesses needing programmers make a big decision on which college you go to? I'm in my senior year looking at colleges and I want to find out if I should narrow down my options due to what they look at. I live in Indiana and any advice will help. Thanks in advance.

 

[degibson]

A particular business may have inroads with a particular university -- e.g., Company X may preferentially hire students from University Y. These sort of things typically arise because of prior personal and/or business relationships between Company Y and professors at/students at/employees of University Y.

But, there is no single university that all companies automatically prefer. More 'prestigious' names get you a little farther in general, naturally, but a lot ends up riding on your own skills and ultimately, your people skills.

You can develop core competencies at just about any school (or without school for that matter, but it's good to have on-paper resume points, like degrees). Just going to school is seldom enough -- you have to love it, want to learn more about it, etc., and self-train a lot too.

In general:
Degrees + Right amount of Experience = Gets you an interview
Programming skills, people skills, and opinions of your prior bosses/professors/co-workers = Gets you a job
Degrees + Right amount of Experience = Determines your salary.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Best to look 4 years out, if possible, and determine what you would like to do and where you would like to be.

Businesses would prefer to take people that are coming out of local quality college - it also increases your chances of getting internships.

The geographical area that you went to HS will have no bearing on a business hiring.

 

[Cogman]

AFAIK (And I could be wrong) College doesn't really matter much for Software developers. What matters is that you aren't a complete moron.

If you can make something without copying and pasting from some resource, you'll be a mile ahead of 90% of the guys that learn CS/CIT/software engineering.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

I only have a single data point, but if you're good you'll get hired regardless. I just got a job at a company that hires almost exclusively from a university in Auckland, right at the top of the North Island. I'm in Christchurch, 1,000km away where they almost never look. But I nailed their automated online test, nailed the phone (actually GoToMeeting) interview and they flew me up, where I nailed the in-person interview. I'm the first hire they have made from outside of Auckland (for developers).

Make yourself stand out, work hard and people will want you, regardless of where you go to school.

 

[esun]

It's not a big factor, but it is definitely a factor. However, the more important issue to consider is that top software firms tend to recruit from top schools. If you attend some no-name school in the middle of nowhere, you may never see a recruiting session from the company you want to work for. Of course, you can apply anyway, but it definitely helps to talk to a recruiter and have that personal contact.

 

[Kirby]

Business that participate in my school's co-op program definitely pull from my university.

 

[Markbnj]

In general the larger the company, the more formal their hiring policies, and the more likely they are to require certain levels of education/certification. A small company might hire a smart programmer without ever asking what school he or she went to. A larger one might pass on a much better programmer because he or she doesn't have the right, or any degree.

 

[KIAman]

AFAIK (And I could be wrong) College doesn't really matter much for Software developers. What matters is that you aren't a complete moron.

If you can make something without copying and pasting from some resource, you'll be a mile ahead of 90% of the guys that learn CS/CIT/software engineering.

I agree on your first statement but disagree on your second. The ability to analyze enough to realize you CAN copy and paste previously developed work goes a long way.

Now if you don't UNDERSTAND what you copied and pasted, then that's the issue.

Honestly, if I could do it all over, I would take the time I earned my degree and get an entry level programming job while learning on the side.

After you have 5 years of professional experience, that degree doesn't mean nearly as much as when you are looking for you first job.

 

[Cogman]

I agree on your first statement but disagree on your second. The ability to analyze enough to realize you CAN copy and paste previously developed work goes a long way.

Now if you don't UNDERSTAND what you copied and pasted, then that's the issue.

Honestly, if I could do it all over, I would take the time I earned my degree and get an entry level programming job while learning on the side.

After you have 5 years of professional experience, that degree doesn't mean nearly as much as when you are looking for you first job.

Well, Really I meant it more as "You have the ability to create something without copy/pasting" Obviously the ability to reuse code and know when to reuse code is valuable. (which I think is what you are getting at).

Some people "understand" code, but couldn't create it on their own. I would argue that they really don't understand the code. Most commonly, these are the people who only know how to do things when given a very specific example.

I think we are probably arguing two sides of the same coin.

 

[degibson]

I think we are probably arguing two sides of the same coin.

I think I agree on this one -- one can 'understand' without understanding.

 

[veri745]

Purdue and IU are both well known school with good CS departments. I'm a Purdue Alum, and lots of big tech companies recruit there.

 

[hooflung]

Some people "understand" code, but couldn't create it on their own. I would argue that they really don't understand the code. Most commonly, these are the people who only know how to do things when given a very specific example.

I don't know if I quite agree on that. Or at least how you are bottling it up and selling it. There are so many more personality types getting into programming it isn't for the stoic analytical types of the 70's and 80's, where in turn were the senior project managers of the 90's and our current decades.

We are moving to a point in time where there are masses with education of the fundamentals of modern day programming yet they don't have a lick of creativity. I truly blame the colleges for this. In fact I worked for a Major University up until a year ago for 9 years doing web development.

I have had to work with the school of journalism for a semester where my department decided to rebrand themselves ( which was stupid to me ) and they went on the cheap because the SoJ implemented a program where the entire final semesters of education would be team building and they would take on a project for desktop publishing. The services would include all the standard packages for a company ( style sheets for print and web, logos, typography etc ).

While I disagreed with the need of my department to do that, since we already had people capable to do it in place so it was a waste of our money, what I did glean from it was that there is nothing like that in the 2 Schools that graduate programmers. Also, let me remind you that the University of Florida graduates some of the finest programmers in the world that have created all sorts of things... including many Linux Developers.

But... I have a high suspicion and by reading interviews from them with Linux Mag over the years that they are the highly analytical types who had the 'need' to do something with the talent bristling under the surface.

However, what about the people who go towards IT because they grew up in the World where IT is tied to the hip from cell phones, powerful consoles, special effects etc? Those people I would suspect need more programs set up in College like UF does for its school of journalism... only for programmers and web developers.

I know fullsail does this already. And even the other college here, Santa Fe College, do that. Unfortunately not all schools do this so someone entering software engineering fields will just have to make their own luck.

 

[Cogman]

I don't know if I quite agree on that. Or at least how you are bottling it up and selling it. There are so many more personality types getting into programming it isn't for the stoic analytical types of the 70's and 80's, where in turn were the senior project managers of the 90's and our current decades.

We are moving to a point in time where there are masses with education of the fundamentals of modern day programming yet they don't have a lick of creativity. I truly blame the colleges for this. In fact I worked for a Major University up until a year ago for 9 years doing web development.

I have had to work with the school of journalism for a semester where my department decided to rebrand themselves ( which was stupid to me ) and they went on the cheap because the SoJ implemented a program where the entire final semesters of education would be team building and they would take on a project for desktop publishing. The services would include all the standard packages for a company ( style sheets for print and web, logos, typography etc ).

While I disagreed with the need of my department to do that, since we already had people capable to do it in place so it was a waste of our money, what I did glean from it was that there is nothing like that in the 2 Schools that graduate programmers. Also, let me remind you that the University of Florida graduates some of the finest programmers in the world that have created all sorts of things... including many Linux Developers.

But... I have a high suspicion and by reading interviews from them with Linux Mag over the years that they are the highly analytical types who had the 'need' to do something with the talent bristling under the surface.

However, what about the people who go towards IT because they grew up in the World where IT is tied to the hip from cell phones, powerful consoles, special effects etc? Those people I would suspect need more programs set up in College like UF does for its school of journalism... only for programmers and web developers.

I know fullsail does this already. And even the other college here, Santa Fe College, do that. Unfortunately not all schools do this so someone entering software engineering fields will just have to make their own luck.

I'm sorry, but what exactly are you disagreeing with in my statement? Are you saying that "many different people are getting into programming?" If that is it, then I'm really not disagreeing with that. What I'm saying is that there are far too many people that think copy-paste makes them a programmer. Programming isn't for everyone, if your personality type dictates that you can only do copy/paste then i would say you aren't a programmer.

 

[Markbnj]

There are so many more personality types getting into programming it isn't for the stoic analytical types of the 70's and 80's, where in turn were the senior project managers of the 90's and our current decades.

60's and 70's maybe, in the corporate mainframe worlds. Those were the days of the windowed data center with the big boxes and flashy lights. But the micro world was never stoic and analytical. Micro programmers were the hippies, wierdos, and dropouts, and fortunately most of us have been able to continue to make a living .

 

[tatteredpotato]

Purdue and IU are both well known school with good CS departments. I'm a Purdue Alum, and lots of big tech companies recruit there.

I went to a no-name school for undergrad and couldn't get a lot of companies to even look at my resume. Started grad school at a much better school this semester and I've already had a chance to talk to reps from tons of tech companies.

 

[hooflung]

What I'm saying is that there are far too many people that think copy-paste makes them a programmer. Programming isn't for everyone, if your personality type dictates that you can only do copy/paste then i would say you aren't a programmer.

What I am saying is that the paradigm is changing. Enterprise applications are today what the mainframes were yesterday. Programmers coming out of school these days who would be covered under the 'copy/paste' area may only be doing that because they don't have any vision on what they could do.

If you are talking about someone who picks up a 'how to program C' and builds a app directly from the code and says 'i am a programmer' sure. But that really isn't a persona to even argue. But if someone that has done 4 years of Java or .NET my get their ideas from a book because well... they aren't the people who go out and get their work published or peer reviewed ( open source ). They are the people who in the 90's might have gotten a degree in finance had they been born in the 70's or 80's.

 

[hooflung]

60's and 70's maybe, in the corporate mainframe worlds. Those were the days of the windowed data center with the big boxes and flashy lights. But the micro world was never stoic and analytical. Micro programmers were the hippies, wierdos, and dropouts, and fortunately most of us have been able to continue to make a living .

If you don't think C and C++ programmers aren't stoic then I suggest you haven't tried working on Open Source Projects like GTK or KDE. Or Linux Kernel dev's who will ghetto blast their peers on mailing lists for using a } else {} instead of putting a carriage return prior to and directly after the else clause

Or Python developers who will argue the need for the Global Interpreter Lock vs figuring out a way around it, which is the single point of contention in the Python scalability argument.

Those Stoic pdp developers raised the C/C++ guys and tought us everything we know... and we inherited the stoic mentality. These young'ns coming out of school are a new breed altogether.