Problems with the election of 2008

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Many of us, myself included, are happy to see Obama ahead in the election.

But even if 'our guy' wins, there are many problems buried by his winning:

- The effect of money in our elections is a corrupting influence. We have done little to fix that - we simply had a democrat good at fundraising to win within the money system.

We all sit with baited breath wondering how much our leaders will compromise the public interest to serve their big money donors. It should not be like that.

The big money donors, who historically in other societies would simply have ruled, but can't get rid of democracy, preserve their disproportionate power through the role of money.

Related, we have done little to nothing to find a 'public financing' solution for campaigns, in fact, this campaign is viewed as a crushing blow as avoiding public finance helped Obama.

- For all we complain about the issues being ignored and the trivial dominating the election - whether it was about how Al Gore phrased his statement on his leadership in fighting for funding to create the internet, or how much blood the shrapnel drew when it hit John Kerry - once again, the election has spent way too much attention on the unimportant and frivolous and nonsense, from lipstick on a pig to Bill Ayers. Relatively few Americans are informed this time, as usual, on the important issues.

- Americans have still not adopted fiscal responsibility. They accepted the 'prosperity' of Reagan's massive debt increase, and they continue to oppose any increase in taxes in the face of our increasing debt. Instead, they eat up writers who rationalize that the debt isn't a problem (wrong), and they blame 'the politicians' for not cutting spending, but keep electing politicians who they criticize.

In 2008, both candidates have embraced the 'no increase in taxes' message in the face of our debt and recession, to pander to the voters. Both promise tax cuts.

Neither has been able (or willing?) to lead the American people to fiscal responsibility, which means not to keep demanding 'no tax increase' unless they cut spending.

Not advocate cutting spending in the areas they like but that don't pass, but cutting spending. They should accept tax increases until spending is cut, not the other way around.

- Third parties still face crippling barriers to access. While I don't favor a third party, I value them in our democracy, and think we should level the playing field.

I don't mean in some way that it now can happen, where one third party doing better likely pulls from the major party more like it, allowing the other major party to win.

I mean a revamp of the voting method in the only way I know that willl work, some form of 'ranked voting' where you can vote for your first choice (the Anandtech Party, say), and if the Anandtech party isn't in the top two finanlists, then your second choice vote - maybe for Democrat or Republican - counts. That would free you to vote for the party you want without 'throwing away your vote'. The only harm would be to the two-party monopoly.

- Another campaign filled more with empty slogans by both sides than substance.

Some slogans like 'change' have a place in 'providing leadership', but it seems to me we're not at a a point where the candidates can say 'harsh facts' much to the public.

The main solution I see here is cultural - for example, when the news business shifted from being medicine - may not taste good but good for you - to profit-oriented, tell people what they want to hear so they pick your show to watch - we may have lost a lot to our culture being willing to hear hard facts. I don't want to romanticize the old news days, I don't think they were a lot better and in fact I think more good content is produced today than ever before - but the best content is seen by few people. Masses tune in garbage for news.

It's ironic that the better the technology - radio over paper, tv over radio, internet over tv - the more the public seems to find lower standards for the content.

At the very least, we can bring back 'the fairness doctrine' and use the FCC to pressure for an increase in 'quality public issue content' - and we can support public radio and tv.

- We still have not solved problems with voter suppression, with voting technology, with conflicts of interest as the people who head states' voting systems are campaign co-chairs.

States control their voting systems, but we could take steps for there to be some national body recommending standards and processes states could be pressured by voters to adopt.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Thoughts...

Campaign fiance:
Ironic that is it the Democrat raking in the big money this time around.
I think it is time to ditch the public system and go with the Obama model. But we have to do a better job on checking up on donations. Make campaigns compare credit cards to the names on the donor list. No anonymous 'gift card' type donations. And we should have stricter reporting standards.

Issues:
Obama's whole campaign is based on the idea of ignoring specifics and instead issuing broad based statements that leave out any detail. That is a huge problem, and both sides are guilty.
The half hour Obama hour was a perfect example of what is wrong. Every fact check site that watched said he was long on proposals, but short on how to actually make them work. They all accused him of ignoring the budget reality as well. Same thing in the debate when both candidates were asked to name what part of their agenda they would be cut back on and both ignored the question.

Which brings me to-
Media bias and just plain bad reporting:
We have seen plenty of both. We have a media that loves Obama and gives him a free pass at every step of the way. Why talk specifics when the media gives you such great coverage??
And then we have the media fascination with petty BS stuff. Palin's wardrobe and make up artist etc.

I think the media does us a huge disservice by not focusing on the issues. They allow the campaigns to skirt the issues by focusing on the 'made up issues.' They spend too much time focused on the horse race and not enough time on the issues that really matter.

BTW I am picking on Obama, but I am sure McCain has the same flaws and ignored issues.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
- Americans have still not adopted fiscal responsibility. They accepted the 'prosperity' of Reagan's massive debt increase, and they continue to oppose any increase in taxes in the face of our increasing debt. Instead, they eat up writers who rationalize that the debt isn't a problem (wrong), and they blame 'the politicians' for not cutting spending, but keep electing politicians who they criticize.

In 2008, both candidates have embraced the 'no increase in taxes' message in the face of our debt and recession, to pander to the voters. Both promise tax cuts.

Neither has been able (or willing?) to lead the American people to fiscal responsibility, which means not to keep demanding 'no tax increase' unless they cut spending.

Not advocate cutting spending in the areas they like but that don't pass, but cutting spending. They should accept tax increases until spending is cut, not the other way around.
I wanted to add the point that you CAN balance the budget without raising taxes or decreasing spending.

We did it in the 90s by controlling the growth of spending. Decrease the growth of spending and with a strong economy you can have a balanced budget.

Everyone seems to have forgotten this fact though, very strange.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Best post I've ever seen from you, Craig. :thumbsup: I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'll add to it my long-standing complaint: it isn't just in the media that these candidates have been short on the issues - they literally do not have detailed platforms, at least not that are available to the general public. It's an utter disgrace and simply their way of sticking it to everyone who thought they knew what they were getting themselves into with their vote.

Voter: "You said you would have this general, vague tax plan."
New President: "Yes, mine covers that, but here are the details..."

The easy solution: restore balance of power in the government. Make the executive branch the executive branch again and let the legislature deal with all of this other crap. I don't understand the need for a king, yet that is what 99% of Americans appear to want at this point. It's apparently just too complicated to worry about different legislators, so we'll just hand all of the power to some random idiot who has no qualifications for the job he has applied for.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,593
6,715
126
We don't need a president or a congress any more. We can vote on everything on the internet. Anybody who can pass a huge test on the pros and cons of an issue can vote on it.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
- Americans have still not adopted fiscal responsibility. They accepted the 'prosperity' of Reagan's massive debt increase, and they continue to oppose any increase in taxes in the face of our increasing debt. Instead, they eat up writers who rationalize that the debt isn't a problem (wrong), and they blame 'the politicians' for not cutting spending, but keep electing politicians who they criticize.

In 2008, both candidates have embraced the 'no increase in taxes' message in the face of our debt and recession, to pander to the voters. Both promise tax cuts.

Neither has been able (or willing?) to lead the American people to fiscal responsibility, which means not to keep demanding 'no tax increase' unless they cut spending.

Not advocate cutting spending in the areas they like but that don't pass, but cutting spending. They should accept tax increases until spending is cut, not the other way around.
I wanted to add the point that you CAN balance the budget without raising taxes or decreasing spending.

We did it in the 90s by controlling the growth of spending. Decrease the growth of spending and with a strong economy you can have a balanced budget.

Everyone seems to have forgotten this fact though, very strange.

tax rate creep doesn't hurt either, or a redistribution of wealth into higher income groups who pay higher tax rates.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We don't need a president or a congress any more. We can vote on everything on the internet. Anybody who can pass a huge test on the pros and cons of an issue can vote on it.

who decides what the correct answers to the questions are?
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Funny how bringing Bin Laden to justice has dropped out of the equation for most people when it comes to elections by the way.

Last election 9/11 was still the main point, and now a lof of Republicans don't even seem to care anymore that their candidate doesn't want to hunt him down in Pakistan.

I think that should still be quite an important issue for any voter, and I'm not even an American.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Many of us, myself included, are happy to see Obama ahead in the election.

But even if 'our guy' wins, there are many problems buried by his winning:

- The effect of money in our elections is a corrupting influence. We have done little to fix that - we simply had a democrat good at fundraising to win within the money system.

We all sit with baited breath wondering how much our leaders will compromise the public interest to serve their big money donors. It should not be like that.

The big money donors, who historically in other societies would simply have ruled, but can't get rid of democracy, preserve their disproportionate power through the role of money.

Related, we have done little to nothing to find a 'public financing' solution for campaigns, in fact, this campaign is viewed as a crushing blow as avoiding public finance helped Obama.
I've said this here numerous times over the past several years and have not gotten one single response in any thread I posted it in. Why can't we shorten up our campaigns the same as Canada does? In our world of Internet and Television where information is out and available for all to see or read within minutes of it happening, why is a 24 month campaign cycle needed? I see no need for it. It only leads to corruption.

This could help in addressing every good point you have brought up. Then put a cap on how much can be raised. Candidates are then on a rationing system. All have the same amount to be spent as they see fit and let's say 90 to 120 days to do so.

The powers that be won't like a change in the status quo. In fact they will not only resist it, they will quash it. More and more I think pitchforks and torches are the only answer.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
- Americans have still not adopted fiscal responsibility. They accepted the 'prosperity' of Reagan's massive debt increase, and they continue to oppose any increase in taxes in the face of our increasing debt. Instead, they eat up writers who rationalize that the debt isn't a problem (wrong), and they blame 'the politicians' for not cutting spending, but keep electing politicians who they criticize.

"Americans have still not adopted fiscal responsibility." And they never will. I've said this before, and I'll say it again until it stops being true (no time soon): we need a structural impediment to deficit spending, because we simply can't trust the voters to elect a Congress responsible enough to put long-term fiscal solvency ahead of short-term gains. Does any intelligent person really think all the dummies who bought houses they can't afford and are carrying thousands of dollars in credit card debt every month will elect politicians who are fiscally responsible? Riiiiggghhht. People aren't electing a president; they're electing a Santa Claus.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: Craig234
Many of us, myself included, are happy to see Obama ahead in the election.

But even if 'our guy' wins, there are many problems buried by his winning:

- The effect of money in our elections is a corrupting influence. We have done little to fix that - we simply had a democrat good at fundraising to win within the money system.

We all sit with baited breath wondering how much our leaders will compromise the public interest to serve their big money donors. It should not be like that.

The big money donors, who historically in other societies would simply have ruled, but can't get rid of democracy, preserve their disproportionate power through the role of money.

Related, we have done little to nothing to find a 'public financing' solution for campaigns, in fact, this campaign is viewed as a crushing blow as avoiding public finance helped Obama.
I've said this here numerous times over the past several years and have not gotten one single response in any thread I posted it in. Why can't we shorten up our campaigns the same as Canada does? In our world of Internet and Television where information is out and available for all to see or read within minutes of it happening, why is a 24 month campaign cycle needed? I see no need for it. It only leads to corruption.

This could help in addressing every good point you have brought up. Then put a cap on how much can be raised. Candidates are then on a rationing system. All have the same amount to be spent as they see fit and let's say 90 to 120 days to do so.

The powers that be won't like a change in the status quo. In fact they will not only resist it, they will quash it. More and more I think pitchforks and torches are the only answer.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

How can you "shorten up" our campaigns without trampling free speech rights? If a candidate wants to start campaigning for 2012 come Wednesday, I may find it annoying as all hell, but he/she's got a right to do that.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: Craig234
Many of us, myself included, are happy to see Obama ahead in the election.

But even if 'our guy' wins, there are many problems buried by his winning:

- The effect of money in our elections is a corrupting influence. We have done little to fix that - we simply had a democrat good at fundraising to win within the money system.

We all sit with baited breath wondering how much our leaders will compromise the public interest to serve their big money donors. It should not be like that.

The big money donors, who historically in other societies would simply have ruled, but can't get rid of democracy, preserve their disproportionate power through the role of money.

Related, we have done little to nothing to find a 'public financing' solution for campaigns, in fact, this campaign is viewed as a crushing blow as avoiding public finance helped Obama.
I've said this here numerous times over the past several years and have not gotten one single response in any thread I posted it in. Why can't we shorten up our campaigns the same as Canada does? In our world of Internet and Television where information is out and available for all to see or read within minutes of it happening, why is a 24 month campaign cycle needed? I see no need for it. It only leads to corruption.

This could help in addressing every good point you have brought up. Then put a cap on how much can be raised. Candidates are then on a rationing system. All have the same amount to be spent as they see fit and let's say 90 to 120 days to do so.

The powers that be won't like a change in the status quo. In fact they will not only resist it, they will quash it. More and more I think pitchforks and torches are the only answer.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

How can you "shorten up" our campaigns without trampling free speech rights? If a candidate wants to start campaigning for 2012 come Wednesday, I may find it annoying as all hell, but he/she's got a right to do that.
Good point. I guess I don't know the answer to that.

So, what would the DNC do if Hillary declared her candidacy on November 5th of this year? Just for the sake of argument mind you.

But back to the point at hand, Canada I assume has the same rights in regards to free speech as we do (I don't know this to be a fact, but I don't recall them throwing anyone in leg irons over there for speaking their mind), so maybe I'm advocating a complete overhaul of our system.
 

43st

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
3,197
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohnWe have a media that loves Obama and gives him a free pass at every step of the way. Why talk specifics when the media gives you such great coverage??

Indeed a very valid point, now seen for several election cycles. I think the odds are in the GOP favor though, when it comes to fielding cult of personality candidates.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: boomerang
So, what would the DNC do if Hillary declared her candidacy on November 5th of this year? Just for the sake of argument mind you.

Legally, they couldn't do a darn thing, but I'm sure a couple thousand of her closest Democratic friends would tell her to pipe the heck down.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Funny how bringing Bin Laden to justice has dropped out of the equation for most people when it comes to elections by the way.

Last election 9/11 was still the main point, and now a lof of Republicans don't even seem to care anymore that their candidate doesn't want to hunt him down in Pakistan.

I think that should still be quite an important issue for any voter, and I'm not even an American.

Name any candidate that does not think the US should pursue every possible avenue to capture and accidentally kill OBL in the process ("bringing him to justice" alive alive would be distinctly unwise). There is no argument here between the parties.

McCain's comments about Pakistan & Obama were a weak attempt by McCain to purportedly show Obama as naive on the diplomatic front. Totally ironic given the second grade level of the rest McCain's campaign themes (pals around with terrorists, the redistributionist, against progressive tax code instituted a century about by the Republican icon, Teddy Roosevelt).

 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,549
9,782
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We don't need a president or a congress any more. We can vote on everything on the internet. Anybody who can pass a huge test on the pros and cons of an issue can vote on it.

Nice elitist attitude. You think it's democratic to force people to conform to government approved views on the issues before being allowed to vote on the issues?

The pros and cons of an issue depend on your point of view. You seem to want only your own view to be allowed to vote.
 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Nicely done Craig, usually disagree with everything you say, but that was done very well.

The failure of the MSM this election cycle has been, interesting. Completely fawning over Obama like the teeny boppers at a Jonas Brothers concert. From Chris Matthews' thrill to NBC going after Joe the Plumber. Let's face it, attacking some guy in a rope line for asking a difficult question should have everyone worried. Both candidates should be asked tough questions--regardless.


The fainess doctrine would be a total infringment on free speech, that should give everyone pause. It may seem like a good idea, because Limbaugh is a-hole(agreed), but shuttering a radio station/radio host because they are conservative and/or liberal is a bad idea. The fairness doctrine will only be applied to radio and won't be applied elsewhere. Free speech is there for the speech you don't agree with. If you agreed with everything then it's not free.

Again nice post.


Edit: for spell check!