Problems with Hydrogen?

[nboy22]

What are the problems with hydrogen cars?

I know a few such as how it's hard to create pressurized hydrogen, so the hydrogen will be about as much money as the high gas prices of today.

Possible explosions? Would carrying a big tank of hydrogen become an accident waiting to happen? What about the other parts that compose the engine?

Price? On Top Gear they had shown a car and, if I recall correctly, they didn't say it was anywhere near $100,000. This car was able to do like 250 miles on a tank of gas, and wasn't slow by any means. Kind of Prius-like but I think it was developed by Honda. I've read some websites and they say it would be about $100,000 to make one.

I just saw this on an older series of Top Gear. They made it seem like a pretty good alternative, but the only cars would be available in California because that's where the majority of the hydrogen pumps are. I'm sure that would increase quite drastically once the popularity grows but there must be something holding it back, maybe even something as simple as gasoline is already widely available.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Single biggest problem with hydrogen is that it's not a fuel source. It's at best an energy storage medium. Second problem is the distribution network. You're thinking of the FCX fuel cell vehicle, btw.

 

[nboy22]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Single biggest problem with hydrogen is that it's not a fuel source. It's at best an energy storage medium. Second problem is the distribution network. You're thinking of the FCX fuel cell vehicle, btw.

Yes, the FCX was the one. Well either way the car needs the hydrogen to run, and they made a point that the FCX was able to go like 250 miles on a tank that costs about how much a tank costs these days. Whether or not that is true, I'm not sure because a lot of manufacturers tend to pad numbers.

 

[SSSnail]

None issues. It's not made like the Hindenburg so it won't explode on contact, and I'm sure the engineers have taken every precautions necessary to develop a non exploding hydrogen car.

Price and availability? You guessed it, it's in the development cycle so pumps are not widely available. The high price of the car is because... you've guessed it again, development cycle... it's only available right now to a few testers, mainly chosen celebrities and luminaries. Once volume and support infrastructure is in place, prices will come down.

Everything needs a start somewhere, I thought people were more sensible and thoughtful than this.

 

[LTC8K6]

Infrastructure. You have hydrogen embrittlement of metals, and the fact that hydrogen leaks easily in otherwise sealed systems.

Hydrogen is not really a fuel, as stated earlier.

Hydrogen is flammable over a wide range of mixtures with air. 5% to 95%, I believe.

It produces water vapor when combusted, one of the worst greenhouse gases.

Currently difficult to produce in a "green" way.

Would really need nuclear plants built to provide power to make hydrogen plentiful for use.

Hydrogen can certainly be useful, but it's not all it is sometimes made out to be. It has baggage that comes with it.

 

[LordMorpheus]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Single biggest problem with hydrogen is that it's not a fuel source. It's at best an energy storage medium. Second problem is the distribution network. You're thinking of the FCX fuel cell vehicle, btw.

I'd say safely storing a reasonable amount of hydrogen is the biggest problem facing potential implementations.

The biggest problem with the whole idea is exactly as you said, that it's an energy storage medium, but accepting that, it's still cleaner than gasoline, the big power plants are way more efficient than the engine in a car.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
It produces water vapor when combusted, one of the worst greenhouse gases.

Any articles on this? I've heard this comment before and plead ignorant on the subject...but would like to understand it better. The few discussions I've heard on it has had people more versed in the subject than me state that this is not an issue as the atmosphere self-manages water vapor (i.e. rain) and that clean water vapor is not a concern. Thoughts?

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: LordMorpheus

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Single biggest problem with hydrogen is that it's not a fuel source. It's at best an energy storage medium. Second problem is the distribution network. You're thinking of the FCX fuel cell vehicle, btw.

The biggest problem with the whole idea is exactly as you said, that it's an energy storage medium, but accepting that, it's still cleaner than gasoline, the big power plants are way more efficient than the engine in a car.

What is the difference between a "fuel source" and an "energy medium"? Gasoline stores energy until used by an ICE. Hydrogen stores energy until used by a Fuel Cell? Are you referring to the fact that the hydrogen has to be produced with other forms of energy? Well so did Gasoline/diesel...from the initial formation of the crude oil to all the energy used to refine the crude oil to get our beloved gasoline/diesel.

 

[91TTZ]

Hydrogen combustion also releases dihydrogen monoxide into the atmosphere which is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people each year.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete
What is the difference between a "fuel source" and an "energy medium"? Gasoline stores energy until used by an ICE. Hydrogen stores energy until used by a Fuel Cell? Are you referring to the fact that the hydrogen has to be produced with other forms of energy? Well so did Gasoline/diesel...from the initial formation of the crude oil to all the energy used to refine the crude oil to get our beloved gasoline/diesel.

Gasoline/diesel is produced from oil that is effectively mined. Thus, dug up. So the oil is the fuel source in this equation. In the case of solar, nuclear, and wind, those are also sources. By hydrogen on the other hand doesn't exist so readily in the environment, so for us to get suitable quantities at this time we need to generate it from something else, which makes it an energy losing deal. So it's akin to batteries at this point.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Hydrogen combustion also releases dihydrogen monoxide into the atmosphere which is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people each year.

Yep, pretty hairy stuff, DHMO:

Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.

Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:


* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
* Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
* Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
* Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
* Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
* Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.

 

[compman25]

what about a system like this?

 

[SickBeast]

There was this guy on the radio the other night going on about how boron is somehow a better option than hydrogen. He said it's basically like carrying gravel around with you. It won't explode and is completely harmless. He said you could even store it in the bumpers.

 

[LTC8K6]

Some quick info from wikipedia. What's most important is the contribution ranking, which shows that "self management via rain" does not remove the greenhouse effect of water vapor.

In order, Earth's most abundant greenhouse gases are:

water vapor
carbon dioxide
methane
nitrous oxide
ozone
CFCs

When these gases are ranked by their contribution to the greenhouse effect, the most important are:

water vapor, which contributes 36?70%
carbon dioxide, which contributes 9?26%
methane, which contributes 4?9%
ozone, which contributes 3?7%

 

[punjabiplaya]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Hydrogen combustion also releases dihydrogen monoxide into the atmosphere which is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people each year.

Wait until the greens hear about this

 

[zzuupp]

The energy density in hydrogen is fairly low. It would require a pretty big thermos bottle to have any kind of range.

Also, the machine tolerances in the fuel system would have to be much tighter to prevent leaks.

 

[PingSpike]

Hydrogen has lots of big problems. That is its biggest problem. It might be worth exploring if there weren't currently any other ideas that didn't have to overcome as many challenges.

Hydrogen would require a complete replacement or retrofitting of our entire fuel distribution system. There is currently nothing to get it to you and your car, outside of maybe a couple stations in California. This is a massive logistical nightmare in and of itself. I don't think anyone takes this too seriously when I see discussions. Its a chicken and egg problem. Without at least reasonable availability of fuel stations, almost no one is going to buy those cars. And no one wants to build an infrastructure for cars that no one owns.

Hydrogen has to be made. The cheapest way is to just harvest it off of oil, but that makes the entire process a complete waste of time since that is the problem we're trying to get away from. You can make it from water, but that requires large amounts of electricity and loss of energy in the conversion. Not to mention I think you'd need to find relatively clean water right? If its fresh water then its even more work. To make this extra energy, you're going to have to build more electric generation systems...like politically unpopular nuclear or coal. I don't think the cost of the new infrastructure + cost of the new vehicle with fuel cells + cost of solar panels would equal anything priced such you'd have Americans running towards it without economy crushing taxes on gasoline effected in tandem.

I still think the most promising technologies are bio diesel made from sea algae and developing better battery technology for electric vehicles. Sea algae can be grown in tanks of piped in sea water in our southwest and offers a way better yield then any of the joke crops we're stupidly using now like corn for ethanol. And you can't eat it so its not competing with food. It has proven to be a challenge to eek out improvements in batteries, but so many things use them that it would be worthwhile to focus research in this area IMO. Both technologies do not require a new distribution infrastructure. They require new cars or at least tweaking of older engines...but all solutions require that and people replace their cars often enough anyway.

 

[CurseTheSky]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Hydrogen combustion also releases dihydrogen monoxide into the atmosphere which is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people each year.

It's also the reason many cars are rusting away, plays a major factor in many auto accidents, and can leech minerals away from otherwise fertile areas, making hindering crop production.

Dangerous stuff, I tell you.