Question Problem with Be Quiet Silent Wings Pro 4 120mm

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dolama72

Member
Feb 3, 2023
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Hi, I purchased 3 of these and are fantastic, sileent and powerful. Howver I noticed that at 100% they reach 2800 RPM max, not the 3000 nominal.
2 of them are mounted as case fans connected to 1 mobo header with an Y cable.
1 is used on the AIO radiator, connected to the CPU Fan header on the mobo.
All 3 are switched to UHS (hardware switch on the fan) but at 100% they reach only 2800 RPM.
No matter how I control them (from BIOS or with 3rd party software like Fan Control) they don't reach 3000 RPM.
Any ideas?
MoBo: Asus Rog Strix B360-I Gaming

Thanks!
 

dolama72

Member
Feb 3, 2023
37
3
16
That setting is supposed to detect when a fan is busted. Either not spinning at all or spinning waaay below the commanded speed. My lowest configured speed is 40% (800rpm on my 2k max rpm fans) and my minimum is set at 600rpm. I'm not actually sure how it alerts you if a fan dies and drops below that threshold. I'd imagine there is an alert while in the BIOS, but will it also pop-up an alert in your OS?
I never heard or saw any alarm, even when I sopped the fans using the manual settings in Fan Control.
 

dolama72

Member
Feb 3, 2023
37
3
16
I am experiencing the exact problem. I created a post at reddit, if you want to check it out. I am a bit worse then you, as mine could only go up to 2750, not even 2800. Did you found a solution? My motherboard is Asus Z790 Hero.
No, I gave up the idea to understand.
Even under full load the fans never exceed 50-60%.
So practically it’s not an issue
 

YJOHNH

Junior Member
Mar 8, 2023
3
0
6
No, I gave up the idea to understand.
Even under full load the fans never exceed 50-60%.
So practically it’s not an issue
Okay. Seems like it is either the manufacturer lied, or it is a common problem of these fans. I am also fine for it being capped at 2750, since it is enough. But the feeling is like I just don't want to be fooled, should have got what I paid for.
 

YJOHNH

Junior Member
Mar 8, 2023
3
0
6
No, I gave up the idea to understand.
Even under full load the fans never exceed 50-60%.
So practically it’s not an issue
I have a thought of the possible cause. If you check the specs of the fan on their page, you will notice the operating voltage of it is "7-13.2V'.
So that means no fan header on motherboard could give the 13.2V maximum need of this fan, as all modern motherboard fan headers are 12V.
Also, 12/13.2=0.909, which is about 91% of the voltage, thus 91% of max power consumption. 91% of 3000rpm is 2727rpm. That sounds like about right to me.
I can only guess, Asus did a good job at voltage control, their fan headers are really locked at 12V, could probably reach to 12.3V as you got 2800rpm. Mine seems locked up at 12.0 V.
If what I guessed is right, Then still, problem is that nothing is able to provide that 13.2V header voltage. Even the SATA powered Fan Hubs would only support 12V PWM.
 

dolama72

Member
Feb 3, 2023
37
3
16
I have a thought of the possible cause. If you check the specs of the fan on their page, you will notice the operating voltage of it is "7-13.2V'.
So that means no fan header on motherboard could give the 13.2V maximum need of this fan, as all modern motherboard fan headers are 12V.
Also, 12/13.2=0.909, which is about 91% of the voltage, thus 91% of max power consumption. 91% of 3000rpm is 2727rpm. That sounds like about right to me.
I can only guess, Asus did a good job at voltage control, their fan headers are really locked at 12V, could probably reach to 12.3V as you got 2800rpm. Mine seems locked up at 12.0 V.
If what I guessed is right, Then still, problem is that nothing is able to provide that 13.2V header voltage. Even the SATA powered Fan Hubs would only support 12V PWM.

That could be the explanation. Although why market a fan which works at a voltage no motherboard can deliver?
Is it maybe different using dedicated fan controllers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,759
9,702
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One other thing to bear in mind that the measurement of fan speeds is very, very approximate. For example, I built a PC which was reporting high CPU temps, but when I checked the fan speed in software it said it was going at ~1000RPM... then a second or two later, 0, then back to ~1000. The BIOS reckoned it was consistently doing ~1000RPM.

In actuality, the fan blades moved about half a revolution and then stopped.

In another PC I have an Arctic Freezer 13 HSF. The fan is working absolutely fine and is seemingly running a consistent fan speed. The BIOS reports the fan speed as 675000RPM, or 1300RPM at any given moment.

My guess is that with 3-pin fans that the fan "sensor" measures power throughput and assumes what the fan is doing based on the figure.

Maybe 4-pin fans are better in this respect? No idea.
 

solidsnake1298

Senior member
Aug 7, 2009
302
168
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One other thing to bear in mind that the measurement of fan speeds is very, very approximate. For example, I built a PC which was reporting high CPU temps, but when I checked the fan speed in software it said it was going at ~1000RPM... then a second or two later, 0, then back to ~1000. The BIOS reckoned it was consistently doing ~1000RPM.

In actuality, the fan blades moved about half a revolution and then stopped.

In another PC I have an Arctic Freezer 13 HSF. The fan is working absolutely fine and is seemingly running a consistent fan speed. The BIOS reports the fan speed as 675000RPM, or 1300RPM at any given moment.

My guess is that with 3-pin fans that the fan "sensor" measures power throughput and assumes what the fan is doing based on the figure.

Maybe 4-pin fans are better in this respect? No idea.
The only pin difference between 3 and 4 pin fans is the presence of the 4th PWM pin. The shared pins are ground, 12v/5v, and tachometer (senses RPMs).

When a fan controller is connected to a 3 pin fan the controller will vary the voltage between 5v and 12v to get to the commanded RPM. Using the tachometer pin to sense that. When a 4 pin fan is connected the controller will only output 12v. To vary the fan speed it pulse the 12v output. Increasing the pulse width of the pulse to increase RPM or narrowing the pulse width to decrease RPM. 100% means that there is no pulsing and is constantly outputting 12v. PWM = pulse width modulation.

But Mike is right that the accuracy of the RPM reported depends on the quality of the fan controller. If you are curious to know what the actual RPM is, buy a laser tachometer. They aren't expensive. Most computer fan reviewers will also use these to validate the advertised max speeds.
 
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Paperdoc

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Aug 17, 2006
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More detail. In a 3-pin fan, the leads are:
Pin 1 (Black wire) Ground
Pin 2 (Red wire) + DC Volts
Pin 3 (Yellow wire) Speed signal
The VOLTAGE on Pin 2 varies from 12 VDC for full speed down to about 5 VDC for minimum speed without stalling.
The Speed signal generated by the motor is sent back to the header on Pin 3. It is a series of pulses 5 VDC high at 2 pulses per revolution. The header merely counts those repeatedly over a fixed time frame and calculates RPM. Accuracy? Fan speeds actually DO vary slightly over time, so some small fluctuation is normal. The calculation SHOULD be correct as long as the timer is reliable and the programming contains the correct scaling constants, but it is possible for those to be wrong, producing a stable error amount.

For 4-pin fans the electrical signals are similar with important differences. However, wire colour coding comes in at least two versions.
Pin 1 Ground (same)
Pin 2 +12 VDC constant
Pin 3 Speed signal (same)
Pin 4 PWM signal
The PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signal is 5 VDC high and similar to a square wave in that is always either fully on or fully off. However, whereas a square wave is on exactly 50% of the time always, a PWM wave has variable % On time, ranging from 0% (Off always) to 100% (On always). In PWM fan motors for computers, this signal operates at about 22 KHz. Inside the motor case there is a small circuit with a switching chip that uses this PWM signal to turn on and off the flow of current from the fixed 12 VDC line through the motor windings. So the AVERAGE current flow normally is less than the MAX (100% On), and thus the average torque force driving the motor is reduced, reducing its speed and resultant air flow.

As an aside, the way that larger industrial PWM motor drives operate is different. In those systems the motor does NOT have its own switching chip. The actual power supplied to it on cables is switched at the motor control module to achieve the same result. For this reason the makers of computer PWM fans caution you NOT to apply a commercial PWM motor control's output to a computer fan designed differently.

The design and introduction of 4-pin PWM fans includes a couple of important backwards compatibility features to ease their introduction into the market. The physical layout of the connectors is very similar so that you CAN plug either fan type into either header type. The electrical characteristics also are very similar (above) so that either fan type WILL work with some limitations. In the simple cases of connecting a fan to its intended header and signals, they work as designed, but what about the mis-matches? If you plug a 3-pin fan into a 4-pin header it makes NO contact with Pin #4 and gets no PWM signal it could not use, anyway. It does receive a power supply of +12 VDC always (not varying as the 3-pin design intended) so it always runs full speed. You get good-to-overly-much cooling but no ability to reduce that. When you plug a 4-pin fan into a 3-pin header the fan receives NO PWM signal so its chip cannot modify the power flow to the windings. However, that power supply from Pin #2 is VARYING, so the motor speed IS controlled this way, just as a 3-pin fan would be. From a technical perspective this is not ideal, and not the way the motor was designed, but it works.

A small important side note on speed detection. A mobo header figures out speed by counting pulses. It can NOT deal with TWO pulse trains from different fans at the same time because they are never synchronized. So if you use a Splitter or a Hub to connect more than one fan to a header, that device will only send back to the host header the speed signal from ONE of the fans and ignore all the others.

Today virtually all mobo headers have 4 pins. But in BIOS Setup almost all have an option to SET the signal type or MODE used to control fan speed. It can act in either 3-pin Voltage Control Mode (aka DC Mode) or in 4-pin PWM Mode. Many also include an Auto Detect option here. In that setting, at every start-up the header starts the fan at full speed in PWM Mode, then sends out a reduced speed PWM signal and monitors the fan speed signal coming back. If the speed is reduced, this must be a PWM type 4-pin fan and that settles the matter. If the speed does NOT reduce, this must be an older Voltage Control Mode fan, and the header switches to that Mode to enable it to control this fan's speed.

Easy-peasy, except for one important situation with PUMPS. MOST (not all) CPU liquid cooling systems are designed to have the pump run at full speed all the time. Why? IF you have BOTH the Pump and the Rad Fans change their speeds in response to the actual internal CPU temperature, the two actors have different time delays and gain factors, so their actions cannot be co-ordinated. They will "chase" each other around constantly, yielding very poor control. So the PUMP speed is kept constant, and ALL control of CPU cooling is done by altering the speed of the RAD FANS ONLY. Now, how to assure that the PUMP will always run full speed? They are wired just like an older 3-pin Voltage Control Mode fan. So if you plug that into a CPU_FAN header that IS using the newer PWM Mode, it will always run full speed! In many such systems, this makes connecting up such a cooling system easy when done right. You can use a simple Splitter to connect BOTH the PUMP and the RAD FANS to the CPU_FAN header, ensuring that the PUMP is the one item that is plugged into the Splitter's output arm with ALL FOUR pins. That may seem strange, but here's why. An important second function of ALL mobo fan headers is to monitor the fan speed signal it gets - NO speed signal (or, in some cases, a signal slower than some minimum you can set) is understood to mean the fan has FAILED and the CPU may overheat VERY rapidly and be damaged. You get a prominent warning on-screen, and many such systems actually will wait for a SHORT time and then shut down completely to prevent CPU damage. In a liquid-cooled system the important component to monitor for FAILURE is the PUMP. No fluid flow = NO cooling, whereas fluid flow with little or no FAN action at the rad will provide poor cooling allowing the temperature to rise slowly, and that situation WILL be detected by a different protection system based on the actual temperature measurement. So the only speed signal sent back to the CPU_FAN header for failure monitoring MUST be the PUMP speed. With connections made this way, the PUMP, acting just like an older 3-pin fan, will run full speed all the time as intended by most designs. But the 4-pin RAD FANS on that Splitter WILL receive the PWM signal and have their speeds controlled by the header. HOWEVER, that "Auto Mode Select" option in configuration of the CPU_FAN header is a PROBLEM here! The only unit sending its speed back to the header is the PUMP that we WANT to keep running at full speed. But the Auto Mode option will use that speed signal to DECIDE how to send out speed control signals, and it will decide that the connected load is a 3-pin fan that requires the older Voltage Control Mode signals to force that "fan" to slow down. Exactly the opposite of what is required for this particular installation! So the option must be set to PWM, not to Voltage or Auto.
 
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dolama72

Member
Feb 3, 2023
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More detail. In a 3-pin fan, the leads are:
Pin 1 (Black wire) Ground
Pin 2 (Red wire) + DC Volts
Pin 3 (Yellow wire) Speed signal
The VOLTAGE on Pin 2 varies from 12 VDC for full speed down to about 5 VDC for minimum speed without stalling.
The Speed signal generated by the motor is sent back to the header on Pin 3. It is a series of pulses 5 VDC high at 2 pulses per revolution. The header merely counts those repeatedly over a fixed time frame and calculates RPM. Accuracy? Fan speeds actually DO vary slightly over time, so some small fluctuation is normal. The calculation SHOULD be correct as long as the timer is reliable and the programming contains the correct scaling constants, but it is possible for those to be wrong, producing a stable error amount.

For 4-pin fans the electrical signals are similar with important differences. However, wire colour coding comes in at least two versions.
Pin 1 Ground (same)
Pin 2 +12 VDC constant
Pin 3 Speed signal (same)
Pin 4 PWM signal
The PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signal is 5 VDC high and similar to a square wave in that is always either fully on or fully off. However, whereas a square wave is on exactly 50% of the time always, a PWM wave has variable % On time, ranging from 0% (Off always) to 100% (On always). In PWM fan motors for computers, this signal operates at about 22 KHz. Inside the motor case there is a small circuit with a switching chip that uses this PWM signal to turn on and off the flow of current from the fixed 12 VDC line through the motor windings. So the AVERAGE current flow normally is less than the MAX (100% On), and thus the average torque force driving the motor is reduced, reducing its speed and resultant air flow.

As an aside, the way that larger industrial PWM motor drives operate is different. In those systems the motor does NOT have its own switching chip. The actual power supplied to it on cables is switched at the motor control module to achieve the same result. For this reason the makers of computer PWM fans caution you NOT to apply a commercial PWM motor control's output to a computer fan designed differently.

The design and introduction of 4-pin PWM fans includes a couple of important backwards compatibility features to ease their introduction into the market. The physical layout of the connectors is very similar so that you CAN plug either fan type into either header type. The electrical characteristics also are very similar (above) so that either fan type WILL work with some limitations. In the simple cases of connecting a fan to its intended header and signals, they work as designed, but what about the mis-matches? If you plug a 3-pin fan into a 4-pin header it makes NO contact with Pin #4 and gets no PWM signal it could not use, anyway. It does receive a power supply of +12 VDC always (not varying as the 3-pin design intended) so it always runs full speed. You get good-to-overly-much cooling but no ability to reduce that. When you plug a 4-pin fan into a 3-pin header the fan receives NO PWM signal so its chip cannot modify the power flow to the windings. However, that power supply from Pin #2 is VARYING, so the motor speed IS controlled this way, just as a 3-pin fan would be. From a technical perspective this is not ideal, and not the way the motor was designed, but it works.

A small important side note on speed detection. A mobo header figures out speed by counting pulses. It can NOT deal with TWO pulse trains from different fans at the same time because they are never synchronized. So if you use a Splitter or a Hub to connect more than one fan to a header, that device will only send back to the host header the speed signal from ONE of the fans and ignore all the others.

Today virtually all mobo headers have 4 pins. But in BIOS Setup almost all have an option to SET the signal type or MODE used to control fan speed. It can act in either 3-pin Voltage Control Mode (aka DC Mode) or in 4-pin PWM Mode. Many also include an Auto Detect option here. In that setting, at every start-up the header starts the fan at full speed in PWM Mode, then sends out a reduced speed PWM signal and monitors the fan speed signal coming back. If the speed is reduced, this must be a PWM type 4-pin fan and that settles the matter. If the speed does NOT reduce, this must be an older Voltage Control Mode fan, and the header switches to that Mode to enable it to control this fan's speed.

Easy-peasy, except for one important situation with PUMPS. MOST (not all) CPU liquid cooling systems are designed to have the pump run at full speed all the time. Why? IF you have BOTH the Pump and the Rad Fans change their speeds in response to the actual internal CPU temperature, the two actors have different time delays and gain factors, so their actions cannot be co-ordinated. They will "chase" each other around constantly, yielding very poor control. So the PUMP speed is kept constant, and ALL control of CPU cooling is done by altering the speed of the RAD FANS ONLY. Now, how to assure that the PUMP will always run full speed? They are wired just like an older 3-pin Voltage Control Mode fan. So if you plug that into a CPU_FAN header that IS using the newer PWM Mode, it will always run full speed! In many such systems, this makes connecting up such a cooling system easy when done right. You can use a simple Splitter to connect BOTH the PUMP and the RAD FANS to the CPU_FAN header, ensuring that the PUMP is the one item that is plugged into the Splitter's output arm with ALL FOUR pins. That may seem strange, but here's why. An important second function of ALL mobo fan headers is to monitor the fan speed signal it gets - NO speed signal (or, in some cases, a signal slower than some minimum you can set) is understood to mean the fan has FAILED and the CPU may overheat VERY rapidly and be damaged. You get a prominent warning on-screen, and many such systems actually will wait for a SHORT time and then shut down completely to prevent CPU damage. In a liquid-cooled system the important component to monitor for FAILURE is the PUMP. No fluid flow = NO cooling, whereas fluid flow with little or no FAN action at the rad will provide poor cooling allowing the temperature to rise slowly, and that situation WILL be detected by a different protection system based on the actual temperature measurement. So the only speed signal sent back to the CPU_FAN header for failure monitoring MUST be the PUMP speed. With connections made this way, the PUMP, acting just like an older 3-pin fan, will run full speed all the time as intended by most designs. But the 4-pin RAD FANS on that Splitter WILL receive the PWM signal and have their speeds controlled by the header. HOWEVER, that "Auto Mode Select" option in configuration of the CPU_FAN header is a PROBLEM here! The only unit sending its speed back to the header is the PUMP that we WANT to keep running at full speed. But the Auto Mode option will use that speed signal to DECIDE how to send out speed control signals, and it will decide that the connected load is a 3-pin fan that requires the older Voltage Control Mode signals to force that "fan" to slow down. Exactly the opposite of what is required for this particular installation! So the option must be set to PWM, not to Voltage or Auto.
Wow! Give me a couple of days to digest it and I’m sure I will have some questions.
Great learning, thanks!
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,759
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Oh... then i think the vendor probably lied about specs, which is not uncommon.
If you really want that extra 200rpm, then i would switch vendor.
But like solidsnake states, its not really worth it, but noctua fans do have a better pressure curve, and so does Nidac Gentle Typhoons.

Is there a good review of fan efficiency/noise that you'd recommend reading? I hoped to compare BQ to Noctua, found one review with one in and another review with the other :)
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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I have a thought of the possible cause. If you check the specs of the fan on their page, you will notice the operating voltage of it is "7-13.2V'.

This is correct.
The reason is because the fan is probably rated @ 3000 RPM @ 13.2V
I think that is very poor marketing, and very misleading, because as you said, no PC system will get you 13.2V without a buck converter of some kind.
 
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dolama72

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Feb 3, 2023
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Easy-peasy, except for one important situation with PUMPS. MOST (not all) CPU liquid cooling systems are designed to have the pump run at full speed all the time. Why? IF you have BOTH the Pump and the Rad Fans change their speeds in response to the actual internal CPU temperature, the two actors have different time delays and gain factors, so their actions cannot be co-ordinated. They will "chase" each other around constantly, yielding very poor control. So the PUMP speed is kept constant, and ALL control of CPU cooling is done by altering the speed of the RAD FANS ONLY.
Intresting point.
I checked my Arctic Liquid freezer II 360 A-RGB, which connects 4 fans (3 on the radiator and 1 for VR fan) and a pump all on a single, 4-pin header on the motherboard.
In this case they claim that depnding on PWM% eack fan/pump has a different RPM curve, see the picture below.
The RPM picked up by the MB sensor is the one related to the 3 radiator fans.

EDIT: I want to add that also in this case there is a slight variance between the RPM of the fans at a given PWM% and the actual one read by the motherboard. That is for example, at 0% PWM the radiator fans read 240 RPM instead o fthe approx 300 I see in the graph, but it'sobviopusly an irrelevant difference for practical applications.
On a different and maybe interesting note, I am puzzled how the entire cooling system of the PC reaches any stability considering the different curvesof RPM vs PWM% plus the fact that we all have different temperature vs PWM% profiles set on the bios or with software like Fan Control. It would be interesting to study the system from an Automatic Control stand point.

1678712853645.png
 
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Paperdoc

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Aug 17, 2006
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Arranging things that way is not very difficult for that system because the speed of each of those three motors actually is controlled by a controller in the pump unit. In that system, the software utility provided that communicates with the pump via a USB2 connection actually accesses the internal CPU tempearture info from the mobo and uses that to determine the three speeds, then sends those instructions for the controller chip in the pump. The mobo headers' built-in controls are not used here at all. Although the strategy appears to allow some "chasing" to happen between pump speed and rad fan speed, that can be prevented with proper design of the software utility that is doing the deciding. It is controlling a totally-known system. A mobo-based system designed for any and all possible cooler systems cannot do that.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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You're right, my bad!!
The only control signal used is the mobo CPU_FAN header's PWM signal, and the graph you show (source?) indicates that signal is used for ALL three motors. For the VRM fan that's not really an issue - its workload may be similar to the CPU chip's. By the way, that is the VRM for the innards of the pump unit, not for the main mobo Voltage Regulator system. Now, that does raise the question why a VRM is required? MAYBE that's a hint related to why this system does not have trouble with the pump and rad fans "chasing" each other. The graph shows that beyond about a 45% On signal from the PWM, the PUMP speed if already fixed at its max, so it cannot go up or down in most actual workloads. I don't really know for sure - this is an unusual design.

Irrespective of whether or not I fully understand it, if it works, it works!
 

dolama72

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Feb 3, 2023
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Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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Thanks for the source. Actually I did look at that Spec Sheet myself, but failed to look at ALL of it!

VRM stands for Voltage Regulator Module. It simply regulates a power supply to provide an output of fixed Voltage for user devices. Often the input is at a slightly higher Voltage, and the components of the VRM circuit reduce and regulate that, creating waste heat in the process, so the module needs cooling of some kind. A mobo has a large Voltage Regulator Section near the CPU socket that creates several closely-regulated Voltage supplies for different mobo components. Many rely on fixed heat sinks to release the waste heat to surrounding air, but some that deal with heavy power flows require a small fan fixed over that heatsink. However, for the mobo functions, that section is NEVER in an add-on components, and is MUCH larger that what could fit into the chassis of that AIO's pump unit. So a "VRM" included in that pump unit must be for power supply only for components inside the unit. Within that unit there are the pump, some electronic components including the VRM, and a fan to cool the whole unit. Among those, the cooling fan really should not need a Voltage Controller. If the PUMP motor is to operate at varied speeds, the PWM signal it receives from the mobo CPU_FAN header can do that. However, that would make the RANGE of speeds vary smoothly up to a max when the PWM signal is at 100%. Since the graph indicates that is NOT how the pump speed works and it becomes fixed for PWM values over 45%, there must be some circuit that limits the PUMP motor speed over that upper range. That's why I speculate that the VRM is doing that job.

I do NOT consider this any attempt at deception. It is simply a design to accomplish a set of operating conditions needed in the system. Among those, I suspect, is NOT having BOTH the pump AND the rad fans changing their speeds constantly as CPU temperture changes.