[problem TBD]

[kermalou]

i think that it might be too soon.

i myself have taken a shitload of meds from Ritalin to Wellbutrin to Adderall to whatever you can imagine and didn't like any of them mainly because they change the person you are used to.

 

[beer]

Goosemaster -

That's fine. It's a decision of ethics. If you can't do without amphetamines, where does that really take your life? It sounds like you are merely apathetic, maybe to a greater extent that everyone around you but it's the same innate problem. But if you start doing adderall, your ability to function without it will continue to decrease. In short, you will be hooked on a substance for your entire life. What really do you want to do?

 

[beer]

dp

 

[beer]

Alright, since reading through the thread people are labeling me 'dumbass' among other things, I will take everything back if you can prove to me that ADD is a disorder. Prove to me, with scientifically accepted brain scans or other non-subjective evaluations, that what is currently diangosed as ADD and ADHD are different than kids with youthful hyperactivity. Because, to date, I have found nothing that proves ADD exists beyond observations, questionairres, and circumstantial medical evidence that hasn't been proven to be uniform.

This is my last post talking to my detractors in this thread until they can prove ADD/ADHD really exists, and is dfferent from normal hyperactivity that recedes with age.

 

[Ogg]

Cheers Beer
Im with you:beer:

But I definitely dont want to piss Roger off, Im glad he is back posting ........:shocked:
Yeah I said it im glad Rogers back

 

[Ryan]

Wow - I drew SEVERAL striking parallels between you and I, except that I've never seen a doctor I do feel depressed, am the SAME way about schoool, and I sleep all the time (sometimes in excess of 12+ hours a day).

 

[EXman]

I cannot prove to you that moon exsists cause I cannot take you there. But I dee it almost everyday. ADHD does not go away for everyone bub Adult ADD is not Common because ADHD was not widely excepted when todays adults were kids. So there are millions of adults struggling to get by.

we agree to disagree. fine sorry you think that others are out to get you by having an unfair advantage. Yes People are abusing a drug that has nothing to do with ADHD being real or not. I have a friend who used to act bi-polar weird to get Xanax but that made her a fraud not bi-polar a fraud. I see part of what you are saying. The system is being abused. Kinda like Oxycontin thing.

But the thing you are missing here it is not the Hyperactivity that you keep focusing on it is the lack of focus. ADD kids through adults find hard to keep focus or when they do they hyperfocus and it is hard to get through to them. it is not that they are figity it is the racing thoughts that do not stop ( I have those too.)

Regardless anything that helps a kid get an education wether it be adderall, ritalin or a tad of pot it shouldn't matter to you. If you do your best that is all you can do. Odds are these guys will stumble on a quiz or test here and there and you will have nothing to worry about.

 

[Aztech]

"Plato, not Prozac". That's the title of a book I read. Maybe a philosopher could help. Look into it. Look at the self-help/motivation section in a book store. Maybe you'll find something useful.

 

[beer]

I cannot prove to you that moon exsists cause I cannot take you there

Wrong. This is an utterly fscking horrible analogy. You can prove that a body orbits the earth with a period of 28 days by anything related to gravitational pulls. This would be the moon, as proven by Newton's classical mechanics in the 1700s.

You have done nothing to differentiate from regular hyperactivity which has been a part of human nature since we evolved millions of years ago, and ADHD, which is such a late 20th century phenomenon that Ritalin went up 500% in the last two decades of last century.

So what if you can't focus. You wouldn't give your kid speed off the street, yet you give him adderall and ask him to take it daily, which further erodes any focus he may have had once he realizes that amphetamines are bad and decides to go off them. It's sentencing him to a life of drug dependence. At least people in college who take them are 19 and 20 or older and can usually tell that the side effects aren't good and go off them before they become addicted, but a four year old has no such mental understanding.

 

[EXman]

Wrong. This is an utterly fscking horrible analogy.

ok bub pop one xanax yourself see that it was meant to be a bad analogy. please don't make me explain it to you. man you're not having a good night.

You have done nothing to differentiate from regular hyperactivity which has been a part of human nature since we evolved millions of years ago, and ADHD, which is such a late 20th century phenomenon that Ritalin went up 500% in the last two decades of last century.

yea I know I don't give a rats behind about the Hyperactivity part. YOU DO! let that part go!!!!! There is more to it and until you understand that it is more than a rowdy kid you are wasting your time by NOT listening!

There are other drugs than Adderall for ADHD and the funny thing is it slows the ADHD kid down while the non ADHD kid it speeds up. want to comment on that and get out of your little college world. Everything does not revolve around you.

anyhow didn't you read my whole post I Agreed with you on some sh!t. Giving young kids adderall is not good for everyone but in some cases it could help. Have you completely closed your mind here if so please move along because you are wasting your own time. Go have a :beer: and that xanax

yes this drug is perpetuated by the drug companies ALL DRUGS ARE! except people are most passionate about their children so they play off their fears and it is a sh!tty business. see we are on the same page on that.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: beer
Adderall has that effect on everyone. It doesn't matter how 'lazy' you are, or how 'active' you are, it will improve everyone's mental capabilities - the same way alcohol always decreases them.That's just the way the drug works. For everyone. That's why there's such an underground market for them around college final time here in Austin.

ADD isn't a real disease, sorry.

Only to those who want to drug themselves and others. It's real, but pretty much any 'treatment' for it I've found just made me...not me, and only performing better in typical school environments, and only caused me to suffer elsewhere (college has been good so far--I can actually do things the way I do it, fitting the ADD behaviors to a T, and only the final products matter). Things that really help are caffiene (coffee is a no-side-affects drug for me, tea less so becaus eof the second point) and cutting down on refined sugar. I still have a coke here and there, sweeten tea, etc., but when you finally look at it, it can be suprising how much most people actually consume of this stuff.

I have problems that get in my way, but ADD isn't one of them, except in very specific environments, the likes of which have rarely existed here since before WWII (that being large, packed schools, where students are not expected to learn as they can, but rather, as they are told to). My father's side is clearly where I get it from, but until me, they were just considered odd. No big deal.

And iceberg is worthless. Romaine is the most common lettuce that is actually worth something.

You got that right!

 

[Goosemaster]

From what I have read on the drug( not much but I'll definitely read more) it is effective, yet to be used with extreme caution.

Experiences range from a mild euphoria to a disasterous addiction with drawback the like of which would scare many people away.
I will admit it has given me a boost of energy, even making me perform a little better at the gym. As for changes in my personality, i guess it is too early to tell.

For now, my doc told me to stay ion 10mg doses until I get sued to it, at which ppoint I should move to 20mg, but I might not. If I feel "content' enough with 10mg daily, I will stick with just that. I will admit that I did feel effects wear off mid-afternoon, as I have taken it at about 5-7am, but hopefully I will learn to deal with that.

My only other option is to find other treatment, but something in the meantime is mandatory. Like I said, my dreams are quickly fading into antiquity.

As for the loss of my personality, I would of course preffer no change at all. I like the way I come accross, if not am basically content with it, excluding the malaise. Like I said, I will try the 10mg dose and see if it will pull me through. I have a somewhat satisfactory resiliance to cravings of any sort if I want to, and that will definitely be applied in this situation to the best of my own abilities.

In the end, I realise that it is our personality that definies and differentiates us by the friends we have, the music we love and the music we listen to. However, a modicum of change is required in my situation. I will try this route for now and see if it gets me anywhere.

Hopefullly it will under carefuly scrutiny.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: beer
ADD is NOT ADHD

ADHD is evident
ADD is not

In particular, I'm talking about all the 'Adult ADD' ads they have been swarming the TV - as well as newspapers - lately. ADD in general is not diagnosed as ADHD - hence why they have two names

ADHD is hyperactivity. They've been diangosing ADHD for decades now. ADD is laziness. Adderall, on people with "ADD", is used to make them more active and mentally clear. Used for ADHD, it brings people under control

1. Not all are that hyperactive, and the drugs used still calm us and have every other effect just as the hyper ones (less shaking and jittering, ability to focus on dull crap, etc.).
2. Laziness won't be fixed by speed coctails. Anti-depressants, sure. Laziness is an emotional issue, not a physical problem. Fatigue and lethargy != lazy. I'm trying not to rant, BTW, as I've put up w/ too much of being called lazy. Anyone just calling somebody who can't do something lazy obviously has no idea what it's like to know you have the physical and mental capacity for something, yet be unable to do it, because you're practically hungover all the time. I'm about to fail my Lit class because of that. Laziness is what's going on in the class I'm getting As in, where I just don't do work because I don't feel like it--after all, I can make up for it later and ace the tests.

OK, too bad, I did rant. Now I'll get back to frustrating myself over two essays I just can't get done.

 

[EXman]

dude just get some straight up ritalin I never had those side effect other than losing weight and some good sexual side effects.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: beer
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/04/04-06-04tdc/04-06-04dscihealth-04.asp

Another article I found. I don't think it's merely coincidental that the DEA schedules adderall in the same groups as cocaine. But once again, I am not here to debate ethics, now am I?

EDIT:

DEA drug schedule

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html

And still more
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/amphet.htm


another college paper on adderall abuse
http://www.jhunewsletter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/04/02/406cd1793dfb2
And another
I could go on and on about this. The fact that it was originalyl designed as a weight loss drug should clue you in to it's chemical properties as well.

Actually, if I remember correctly, anphetamines became incredibly popular in the 1950s, as it be came the 'cure-all' used by many a physician. Through time, many houswives became addicted to it.

As I have asked before, what do you recommend I look into? Obviously you do not seem to be a doctor or someone that I should palce my trust in concerning such a delicate subject, but I will research information you give me.

As I said, right now I am going no where. In fact, my father(biological) is just like me. The only thing that keeps us going are our good deeds. Because of the cultural important and entrenchment of good deeds as the supreme form of pleasure, we get a momentary "high" from helping people. Why do you think I tutor for 6hrs+ per week for free and don;t care whether I get paid or not (i don't). Of course this is indeed NOT a satisfactory solution.


In fact, my father has changed quite a bit over the years. Eveloped by a nagging addiction to coffee, he hears vocies, and exhibits a variety of paranoid symptoms such as untriggered fear etc. Unfortunately the only person that knows anything remotely accurate about what he has is my mother. She only took a few psych classes many years ago, and thinks it is some sort of schizophrenea. Obviously that opinion is no where near medical fact in terms of credibility, but it did gete me to thinking.

Like I sstated, I will try the 10mg doses for now. IF I see continued improvement, or more importantly consistentcy in my mood and my demeanor, I will ask the doc if i can stay on 10mg.

If I stated this already, once more will not hurt a bit. I do NOt want something to make me happy. I am already "happy." I am content with my personality. What plagues me is a genral malaise that results in lethargy. It does not really make me sad. I just keeps me tired and drowsy. Once I am up and about, I have all the resiliance, all the wit, all the umor that I could ever ask for.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: Roger
beer, you stated this,I did not ;

ADD isn't a real disease, sorry.

I had no quarrel with you regarding Aderall, I do have a quarrel with you because of the above statement that you posted.

ADD and ADHD do exist, do not tell me or others otherwise.

Hyperactivity in youth have existed for thousands of yearrs. Hell, look at a puppy or a baby rabbit - mammals are just hyperactive when they are young, that's the way the body is built I guess. It just proves to be a problem when you are trying to operate in a structured setting like a classroom. I don't doubt that hyperactivity exists, I just don't think it's this late-20th-century phenomenon that so many people make it out to be, because raising dogs you can see the exact same traits there too. I also don't disagree that there are varying levels of hyperactivity as well. I just don't think treating them with amphetatmines is the answer to a temporary problem, since it creates a severe dependency that exists long after the normal age of hyperactivity would be over.

And for the record I do use adderall around finals. However I am fully aware that I am abusing it, I'm not triying to pass it off as a legitimate 'disorder.'

Go be a village idiot, please. If you're going on 50 and exhibit the symptoms of ADD, you're not going to grow out of it. Period. I don't disagree people are being overdiagnosed, overdrugged, undereducated, overtested, and saturated with far too much information that is not regulated; but get a clue.
Based on my diagnosis, and from that a very clear paternal inheretiance, I believe our current society (and common diets sure can't help) is far more to blame w/ ADD problems than anything else. Perviously, it was just that odd kid. Now, it's that odd kid that needs medication, because he needs to act just like everyone else, and do everything the same way, step by step, right along with them.

 

[Cerb]

At some point you should probably seek a shrink or somebody to try to figure out what the actual problem is (clearly chronic fatigue, but what from?). Believe me, I know it ain't easy, and everyone thinks you're just not trying, when if you can get to class, you can't think worth a damn, or you just can't get up.

In any case, Adderol(sp) is basically clinically designed and tested speed. I'd say it's not good to use for the long term if you don't have ADD (and maybe not then). Those of us that do find stimulants calming to some degree.

Things I could think of you might want to look into:
-If you snore, you seriously might want to look into sleep apnea. I've got it and CPAP helps a bit, but I know a few people who ended up on a whim getting a sleep test done, and now have all the energy they lacked before. (edit: after reading the bit about your father, scratch that and stick with bipolar disorder, schizo, etc.)
-Depression...try to get a good psych and see what's up. There are many different anti-depressants, and many of the same kindd will affect you differently. So SSRIs might be good, but maybe one will work where others fail. However, you may need something outside of drugs and needles (IE, chiropractor or accupuncturist, particularly one who uses applied kinesiology of some kind).
-Could be a kind of bipolar disorder.
-Dunno...do a little looking when you can at a good local library, and get with your better doctors about it. You could be way off, or you could hit the problem.

Good luck

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: beer

I cannot prove to you that moon exsists cause I cannot take you there

Wrong. This is an utterly fscking horrible analogy. You can prove that a body orbits the earth with a period of 28 days by anything related to gravitational pulls. This would be the moon, as proven by Newton's classical mechanics in the 1700s.

You have done nothing to differentiate from regular hyperactivity which has been a part of human nature since we evolved millions of years ago, and ADHD, which is such a late 20th century phenomenon that Ritalin went up 500% in the last two decades of last century.

This is a point you're missing, Beer: For those who aren't part of the overdiagnosis, it isn't. The problems for them revolve more around the circumstances of schooling and education. Mainly that many schools are not good environments to learn, but rather to be taught (big difference there). Yup, went up 500%...I don't know if that's the statistic, but it's pretty high, whatever it is.
It's not just ADD and schools, though.
Look at heartburn and acid reflux, as the ads for it are everywhere.
Take Prevacid, or Prilosec, or Nexium, or whatever else. God forbid you try to cut down on the stress in your life that's going to be the problem for 95% of these people, change diet for the other 4% or so, and let those truly got it for no other reason than luck of the draw or other chronic illnesses take the pills.
But hey, pharm compannies have to make gobs of cash, too.

So what if you can't focus. You wouldn't give your kid speed off the street, yet you give him adderall and ask him to take it daily, which further erodes any focus he may have had once he realizes that amphetamines are bad and decides to go off them. It's sentencing him to a life of drug dependence. At least people in college who take them are 19 and 20 or older and can usually tell that the side effects aren't good and go off them before they become addicted, but a four year old has no such mental understanding.

I think you have to be bad off, brainwashed, or really into whatever you use them for to stay on them. Adderall helped me immensely in school, but I didn't like it aside from that. With all my faults, I still like being me, and that wasn't me; that was a more productive but agitated and emotionally cut off me.

 

beer is right and all the doctors are wrong, I'm sorry your highness, I apologise for my stupidity.

What was I thinking questioning your authority on the subject, I forgot that you are a registered and licensed physician, once again, I am truely sorry.

I am not going to argue with you anymore, think what you want.

It is exactly these stupid little arguements why I stopped posting for awhile, the know-it-alls who try to enforce thier beliefs onto others.

 

[DurocShark]

Originally posted by: EXman
By the Cliff notes I'd say you're misdiagnosed.

Bipolar Look into it I'm serious it happens alot the symptoms are the same in many respects.


DO NOT get Diagnosed ADD by an MD!!!

Can you go to a student mental health? you need a mental helth professional a Doctor will just F you up more they don't know what the heck they are doing they are over their head.

Do you ever get violent suddenly or verbaly abusive? other than your cliffs notes.

I'd agree with the comment about an MD diagnosing ADD.

My 13yo son has ADD. Depression and malaise are often different aspects of ADD. While Adderol may affect one of the symptoms, the others are left alone. (Though you may be better able to deal with the others...)

Turned out that Strattera (for the ADD itself) and Zyprexa (for the depression/psychosis) worked beautifully together. I'd avoid any of the stimulant-based drugs. My son had "heart cramps" from Concerta.

I'm hoping to get him off drugs alltogether. We had one appointment with a neurologist who seems to think that we'll be able to do just that... Without resorting to Electroshock. Now waiting for my insurance to kick down the approvals for more visits.

 

[DurocShark]

Originally posted by: Roger

Adderall has that effect on everyone. It doesn't matter how 'lazy' you are, or how 'active' you are, it will improve everyone's mental capabilities - the same way alcohol always decreases them.That's just the way the drug works. For everyone. That's why there's such an underground market for them around college final time here in Austin.

ADD isn't a real disease, sorry.

beer, are you a doctor ?

If not STFU, My little boy has ADHD, his attention span is exactly 30 seconds, he fails all his classes at school, 4 different pediatricians has diagnosed him with ADHD ATTENTION DEFICIT HYPER DISORDER, he takes Aderall, when he's on it (during school days) he does excellent, low a's, high b's and his attention span is normal, without it, he fails all his classes.

So do not tell me that there is no such thing as ADD or ADHD.

Heh. I've been through this argument a few times here. I've decided to just post my experiences and let others decide to listen. Or not.

My biggest problem isn't with ADD (ADHD, et al), but with the way soceity expects kids to all walk the same way, talk the same way, and perform the same tasks. My son, without medication, is INCAPABLE of "fitting in" to a typical classroom.

While I think if he wants to get the kind of career he's leaning towards (engineer), he's gonna need to deal with that inability one way or another. Medication allows him to train himself to function in a classroom and ultimately college and the world. He's getting at the age now where I'll start letting HIM decide if he wants to be medicated. He's showing good judgement so far, only asking to skip the Strattera once in a while.

Whatever he ultimately decides, I'm supporting him all the way. I have an IQ of 159 and he makes me look stupid on occasion. But I couldn't conquer MY ADHD enough to get to college. I don't even have a high school diploma. But I still managed to get a pretty sweet job..heh

 

[DurocShark]

Originally posted by: kermalou
i think that it might be too soon.

i myself have taken a shitload of meds from Ritalin to Wellbutrin to Adderall to whatever you can imagine and didn't like any of them mainly because they change the person you are used to.

Try Strattera. Non-stimulant. My son returned to being himself when we switched.

 

[beer]

Roger -

It's not like I'm the only one saying that ADD is a myth. If you read some of my links, people writing books and scientific journal articles feel the same way, too. It's not like I am pulling these out of my ass. I am presenting a viewpoint that has been substantiated by people who are hell of a lot smarter than me and correlating them to my experiences.

Just becasue someone is a doctor doesn't make what they say the rule of law. Look at how doctors debate everything from the flu to cancer and everything in between. There is no uniform belief for most diseases and disorders, and ADD is no different. It just so happens there is a bit more debate on a subject when the common prescrption is to give six year olds speed.

I also said:

Your situation may be different but I am speaking from MY personal experience, and this is MY opinion.

This should tell you that I am NOT trying to enforce my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am presenting my opinion and nothing else.

 

Then why do you come off so high and mighty on the subject ?

Just state what you just said, do not go and start a flame war, I have 9 years personal experiance with this, my boy cannot function in society without drugs to help him stay in control, period.

You are not here in my household when he loses control of himself and I really dislike people who start babbling on when they have no experiance with the problem they are arguing about.
Sure, you can go look up books on how we never sent men to the moon, that does not mean we didn't.
The fact of the matter is, without Aderall, my boy cannot socially interact with other people, will fail school and cannot sit in one spot for more than a minute.


Do not start blaming thier lazy parents either, I am not a lazy parent, I spend all my spare time with him, I have tried evrything I know to help him, at this point in time, Aderall is the only thing that helps him.

This should tell you that I am NOT trying to enforce my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am presenting my opinion and nothing else.

Then what the hell is this beer ?

Adderall has that effect on everyone. It doesn't matter how 'lazy' you are, or how 'active' you are, it will improve everyone's mental capabilities - the same way alcohol always decreases them.That's just the way the drug works. For everyone. That's why there's such an underground market for them around college final time here in Austin.

ADD isn't a real disease, sorry.

That does not sound like an opinion to me, it sounds like you are stating a fact for which it is not.

 

[Modeps]

I havent been in the conversation for a while because it dropped off the front then I didnt go back to this thread, but anyways...

One of my real problems with this stuff is that they still dont know what the long term effects of these drugs are on people. The drugs are too new to see if they cause people who take them to give birth to children with birth defects, or a general affinity to the drugs their parents take, just like crack cocaine. People get 'diagnosed' all the time with ADD and get a prescription written without a second guess... it's easier to pop a pill than worry about what the real deal may be behind a kid's behavior.

I do not doubt the existance of ADD/ADHD, however they are just being abused as a band-aid for poor parenting skills.