Pro guns people in the USA

[Vic]

Except to win, you need to show how US liberal policies are not the same as European socialist policies.

No I don't. But I am amused by people who believe that liberalism and socialism are the same thing. As I pointed out already, that's like saying that conservatism and fascism are the same (they're not).

Let me guess: you believe that the founding fathers were all proud conservatives too I bet.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

So am I.

Pro nationalism
Pro military (defense)
Anti immigration
Pro corporate welfare
Pro wealth/elite
Pro traditionalist culture (aka family values)

Are these not core conservative positions?

Question: what's your stance on the pledge of allegiance?

Do you truly not understand the difference between what you believe in and what the US liberal standpoints are?

 

[Vic]

Do you truly not understand the difference between what you believe in and what the US liberal standpoints are?

Why don't you tell me?

 

[PrinceofWands]

I don't why people in the US ignore statistics from around the world where access to guns is a lot more restricted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

For example the US has 40 times more deaths related to guns then the UK or Poland or 351 times more then hong-kong.

You can't pick and choose and then draw a conclusion from that. Instead, look at total aggregate correlation between firearm saturation and homicide rates. If you do this for all available countries (about 171 is what I've found) you'll find that not only is the correlation minimal (.22), it is NEGATIVE. That means that in fact homicides are less as firearm ownership increases, though only minimally so.

Widespread access to guns only increases crime rates. It's a false sense of safety. It doesn't matter that you have a gun, because every common thug has it too. If I was a criminal and knew that about everybody owns a gun I would shoot and then rob the body instead of scaring the victim with a gun and force him to give his stuff away.

Just as you were exactly wrong on your previous argument, so are you equally wrong on these. In point of fact there is next to no correlation between crime rates and firearm possession, and what little there is remains NEGATIVE.

In short, you're simply wrong about everything you believe on this subject.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Without any evidence on hand to back this up at the moment, many of the gun deaths here are thug vs thug, or thug vs people who associate too closely with thugs.

In fact, it's 66-75% of gun deaths that are criminal on criminal.

Also, it's important to realize that international comparisons are almost impossible. There are simply too many variables. For instance, if you want to get close to the same area and population you have to compare the US against all of Europe (and a little more besides). When you do that you'll find our rates are roughly equivalent.

 

[brianmanahan]

Stop posting if you disagree with me.

ftfy

 

[MrDudeMan]

I find it amusing that Lepton ignored all of the facts that were completely contrary to what he stated in the OP. It was a while ago in the discussion, but I've been reading this from the start and he never responded to the several posts that poked glaring holes in his opinion. Ignoring facts that oppose your viewpoint ftl.

 

[StinkyPinky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

List of intentional homicide rate, which excludes crimes of passion (which would be a lot worse with a gun...)


There's a lot of shit countries way above the US, but compared to other "civilized" nations the US stands alone in a pile of its own shit. Three times higher than Canada, 4 times higher than Australia and the UK. These are countries that are probably the most similar to us culturally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade

And per decade. THe biggest drop for the US was in the 90s, big trend downwards in that decade.

 

[RampantAndroid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

List of intentional homicide rate, which excludes crimes of passion (which would be a lot worse with a gun...)

Does this include suicide?

Intentional homicide may or may not include infanticide, assisted suicide or euthanasia.

If suicide is in there, the numbers mean nothing.

 

[BoberFett]

No I don't. But I am amused by people who believe that liberalism and socialism are the same thing. As I pointed out already, that's like saying that conservatism and fascism are the same (they're not).

Let me guess: you believe that the founding fathers were all proud conservatives too I bet.

The US definition of "liberal" has changed a fair amount in the last 250 years...

 

[destey]

Its the big cities with their gun bans, restrictions etc that is the root of the crime problems. Come out to vermont where's there's no gun laws, and there's also no crime. Big correlation between crime and amount of gun restrictions. It doesn't become the wild west with no gun laws, the opposite, criminals fear engaging in crime.

 

[brandonb]

Does this include suicide?
If suicide is in there, the numbers mean nothing.

That's the problem with stats. They are always skewed to show something.

Like drinking and driving numbers. The stats show "Alcohol related accidents." If someone was at a stop light that had 1 beer, and someone sober rear-ended them, it's considered an "alcohol related accident." Has nothing to do with alcohol impaired being the reason for the accident. Just that one of the parties had alcohol in their system (even if they were not the cause of the accident.)

Then people go "OMG, look at all those drunk drivers."