Pro democracy demonstrators in Libya take over Islamist group HQ. Wait, what?

[Kadarin]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/world/africa/libya-benghazi-counter-protest/index.html

You don't see this kind of article every day, that's for sure. Maybe there's hope for Libya after all?

Ten days after four Americans were killed in their Libyan city, hundreds of pro-democracy demonstrators marched in Benghazi and overtook the headquarters of a radical Islamist group tied to the attack.

The protesters took to the street Friday, loudly declaring that they -- and not those behind last week's deadly attack -- represent the real sentiments of the Libyan people.

As militia members fled, the protesters torched a vehicle and took over the headquarters of Ansar al-Sharia without firing a single shot. They also claimed to have freed at least 20 captives held in the building.

 

[OCGuy]

Good for them!

Unfortunately this could trigger a new war, with the pro-Democracy crowd being vastly out-manned and out gunned.

 

[Infohawk]

Good. The proper response to fundamentalists is to fight them and criticize them, not to defend them and make excuses for them.

 

[bfdd]

Thanks for the link. I have hopes for the Libyan people, I just hope they can get rid of the AQ infestation.

TBH I'm a fan of Libyan history and the culture. It's kind of sad that so much radicalism took place there.

 

[sunzt]

yay for hope. Good for McCain standing up for them as well. Wonder why Fox News isnt covering this.....

 

[cybrsage]

This type of thing is what needs to happen to change how the West views Islam.

 

[sMiLeYz]

yay for hope. Good for McCain standing up for them as well. Wonder why Fox News isnt covering this.....

It might remind the American people that Obama was the one who decided to help the Libyan people in the first place. It was George Bush who the Libyan people should be thankful to not the black guy.

 

[peonyu]

It shows there is some sanity over there afterall, and the comments about "afghani" style dress is nice to hear. Of course they are outmanned and outgunned in Libya, the Saudis would not blink twice to fund the Islamists if they need help..

 

[Jaskalas]

Pakistan could learn a thing or two about avoiding nuclear war.

Take it from the Libyans to show an actual act of support. Incredible... dunno if they're really good guys or not but if their sentiments are honestly reported then I've really got to think twice.

Not jumping on their bandwagon but that'd be an honest start.

 

[Emos]

Glad to see it happen also. I'm cautiously optimistic that there might be hope there after all.

 

[Jhhnn]

Good for them!

Unfortunately this could trigger a new war, with the pro-Democracy crowd being vastly out-manned and out gunned.

Assume facts not in evidence quite often, huh?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Assume facts not in evidence quite often, huh?

I don't think it will come down to a war, but it could mean their deaths. I can provide links to acts of intolerance within Islamic nations for actions and thoughts that do not coincide with Islam being the ultimate in authority. Do I really need to do that? Search under "koran burning" and "mohammed movie", and while you are at it, google about Coptic Christian treatment in the ME, and I mean before this latest crappy movie.

To speak up or be different or not conform is often a very dangerous thing to one's life.

I hope these people succeed. This is really the only way that stability will happen. We lost it with Operation Ajax, with the "Axis" speech, and several other things. It's about time we were quietly supportive and intelligent in ME policy. They're going to need all the help they can get.

 

[Steeplerot]

This type of thing is what needs to happen to change how the West views Islam.

Yeah right, conservatives cant even handle white secular/non fundamentalist people in your own country without thinking they are a secret commie conspiracy out to get you and blaming them for the worlds problems, I can sure see you guys embracing dark skinned people of another religion.

Lets start with baby steps: The president is not a terrorist sleeper because he is a black Democrat, then we can move on to more advanced topics, like people of other religions.

Dont go getting all crazy on us now.

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't think it will come down to a war, but it could mean their deaths. I can provide links to acts of intolerance within Islamic nations for actions and thoughts that do not coincide with Islam being the ultimate in authority. Do I really need to do that? Search under "koran burning" and "mohammed movie", and while you are at it, google about Coptic Christian treatment in the ME, and I mean before this latest crappy movie.

To speak up or be different or not conform is often a very dangerous thing to one's life.

I hope these people succeed. This is really the only way that stability will happen. We lost it with Operation Ajax, with the "Axis" speech, and several other things. It's about time we were quietly supportive and intelligent in ME policy. They're going to need all the help they can get.

Muslim extremists, just like Christian extremists, are a minority in their own land. It's only when they take the reins of power are they able to inflict their beliefs as strongly on others as they'd wish.

KSA has been that way since the 1920's, when Wahabbi clerics provided Saud with troops. But they're our pals, right? And the absolute nexus & fountainhead of radical Islam. Radical Shias took over in Iran after another of our friends, the Shah, had obliterated any other organizational entities capable of assuming power when his govt fell, other than the Tudeh, which the Islamists promptly annihilated. Saddam Hussein was no friend of Islamic radicals, and now he's gone. Same wrt Mubarak & Qaddafi. Assad isn't faring much better. The Pakistani govt is utterly corrupt & complicit with US actions in their tribal areas, extremely unpopular as a result.

It's one of those be careful what you wish for deals, because revolution creates power vacuums, and the most radical elements are often the best prepared to fill them. I hope such is not the case in Libya or anywhere else we've seen the Arab Spring, so it's very, very important that we support pro-democracy forces in those places, up to and including making sure they're better armed & organized than the Islamists, better able to impose the rule of law than to have it imposed on them.

OCGuy's assertion about the Islamists out numbering and out gunning more moderate forces in Libya has no basis in fact at this point, which is why I called him on it. The number of Libyans calling for the disarming & disbanding of militias very likely outnumbers the militia members entirely. Given the kind of help they've received in the past, it seems likely that they can prevail.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Muslim extremists, just like Christian extremists, are a minority in their own land. It's only when they take the reins of power are they able to inflict their beliefs as strongly on others as they'd wish

Good thing that they don't exist then.

KSA has been that way since the 1920's, when Wahabbi clerics provided Saud with troops. But they're our pals, right? And the absolute nexus & fountainhead of radical Islam. Radical Shias took over in Iran after another of our friends, the Shah, had obliterated any other organizational entities capable of assuming power when his govt fell, other than the Tudeh, which the Islamists promptly annihilated. Saddam Hussein was no friend of Islamic radicals, and now he's gone. Same wrt Mubarak & Qaddafi. Assad isn't faring much better. The Pakistani govt is utterly corrupt & complicit with US actions in their tribal areas, extremely unpopular as a result.

Well that's special except for one thing. Find where I approve of any of that. In fact I posted what I believe a fairly objective post about our part in BP's wishes over Iran. Maybe you missed that. As far as the Saudis? I'm trying to remember my use of the word "friend" or the qualifier that I believe that torture in the name of Islam was fine if they did it. Maybe you can search where I said that. What I did say is that if people are disgusting withing their own nations and leave others alone they can do that. I'm not going to ask they be bombed. On the other hand I did say that once that is applied to others or other lands then that's another thing. It's a line not to be crossed.

It's one of those be careful what you wish for deals, because revolution creates power vacuums, and the most radical elements are often the best prepared to fill them. I hope such is not the case in Libya or anywhere else we've seen the Arab Spring, so it's very, very important that we support pro-democracy forces in those places, up to and including making sure they're better armed & organized than the Islamists, better able to impose the rule of law than to have it imposed on them.

Here I have no argument. I've said for some time that if we are going to support any side it should be for those who aren't going to abuse their people and others, even if we don't profit from their oil or anything else.

OCGuy's assertion about the Islamists out numbering and out gunning more moderate forces in Libya has no basis in fact at this point, which is why I called him on it. The number of Libyans calling for the disarming & disbanding of militias very likely outnumbers the militia members entirely. Given the kind of help they've received in the past, it seems likely that they can prevail.

Given the choice I'd rather you were correct. My concern is that fundamentalist organizations tend to whip up dissent with remarkable efficiency. Note how well they did after Bush and his Axis speech although it was nothing by political hype. Bush didn't think of the consequences when arguably the most powerful person in the world opens his mouth for good or ill.

What we need is a real democracy which recognizes the religious realities of those it serves, but is strong and secular enough to mete justice on something better than stoning for adultery. I eagerly await that day, if it ever comes in my lifetime.

 

[Incorruptible]

Muslim extremists, just like Christian extremists, are a minority in their own land. It's only when they take the reins of power are they able to inflict their beliefs as strongly on others as they'd wish.

KSA has been that way since the 1920's, when Wahabbi clerics provided Saud with troops. But they're our pals, right? And the absolute nexus & fountainhead of radical Islam. Radical Shias took over in Iran after another of our friends, the Shah, had obliterated any other organizational entities capable of assuming power when his govt fell, other than the Tudeh, which the Islamists promptly annihilated. Saddam Hussein was no friend of Islamic radicals, and now he's gone. Same wrt Mubarak & Qaddafi. Assad isn't faring much better. The Pakistani govt is utterly corrupt & complicit with US actions in their tribal areas, extremely unpopular as a result.

It's one of those be careful what you wish for deals, because revolution creates power vacuums, and the most radical elements are often the best prepared to fill them. I hope such is not the case in Libya or anywhere else we've seen the Arab Spring, so it's very, very important that we support pro-democracy forces in those places, up to and including making sure they're better armed & organized than the Islamists, better able to impose the rule of law than to have it imposed on them.

OCGuy's assertion about the Islamists out numbering and out gunning more moderate forces in Libya has no basis in fact at this point, which is why I called him on it. The number of Libyans calling for the disarming & disbanding of militias very likely outnumbers the militia members entirely. Given the kind of help they've received in the past, it seems likely that they can prevail.

No! There are much more Muslim extremists than Christians as well they are much more dangerous, cutting off heads, suicide bombers

 

[blankslate]

I'm cautiously hopeful about this.

 

[Rainsford]

I'm cautiously hopeful about this.

That was my thought as well. Mainly because the only way the Middle East will ever really improve is if the moderate and progressive elements there take charge of their own countries. We can't permanently police the region or hand democracy to the people there, and the more the good guys take control, the better off everyone is (except for the terrorists, I suppose).

I also hope that things like this change the incredibly anti-Muslim sentiment frequently on display in the US (and other parts of the western world). We should be able to distinguish between good people who practice a different religion and violent radicals who claim to follow that religion. And the more news coverage we have of Muslims who AREN'T playing into action movie bad guy stereotypes, the better off we all are as well.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I don't think it will come down to a war, but it could mean their deaths. I can provide links to acts of intolerance within Islamic nations for actions and thoughts that do not coincide with Islam being the ultimate in authority. Do I really need to do that? Search under "koran burning" and "mohammed movie", and while you are at it, google about Coptic Christian treatment in the ME, and I mean before this latest crappy movie.

To speak up or be different or not conform is often a very dangerous thing to one's life.

I hope these people succeed. This is really the only way that stability will happen. We lost it with Operation Ajax, with the "Axis" speech, and several other things. It's about time we were quietly supportive and intelligent in ME policy. They're going to need all the help they can get.

I sincerely doubt this, the militias are not government supported entities. They are local versions of the Taliban security forces they have in Pakistan and Afghanistan, unsupported but generally ignored by the governments.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

That was my thought as well. Mainly because the only way the Middle East will ever really improve is if the secular elements there take charge of their own countries. We can't permanently police the region or hand democracy to the people there, and the more the good guys take control, the better off everyone is (except for the terrorists, I suppose).

I also hope that things like this change the incredibly anti-Muslim sentiment frequently on display in the US (and other parts of the western world). We should be able to distinguish between good people who practice a different religion and violent radicals who claim to follow that religion. And the more news coverage we have of Muslims who AREN'T playing into action movie bad guy stereotypes, the better off we all are as well.

Fixed your post for you.

 

[Rainsford]

Fixed your post for you.

To be honest, I have to agree with you there. I don't think the problems with radicals in the Middle East have much to do with Islam in particular so much as it has to do with the medieval way religion is practiced. There's a very good reason you don't see progressive democracies run by religious authorities of any kind, despite the best efforts of some people.

 

[DrewSG3]

It's Obama's fault!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

To be honest, I have to agree with you there. I don't think the problems with radicals in the Middle East have much to do with Islam in particular so much as it has to do with the medieval way religion is practiced. There's a very good reason you don't see progressive democracies run by religious authorities of any kind, despite the best efforts of some people.

I recently had a discussion with a group of Muslims here in the UK. Their longing for a society ruled by sharia law was surprising to me considering that they were what most people would call moderates.

They also had a perfect reason why killing non Muslims is ok in such a society and actually encouraged according to the Quaran. Mocccchhhhammat (pubes) states that everyone is born a Muslim and the holy law states that the punishment for apostasy is death. Everyone that's not a Muslim is an apostate deserving of death by this reasoning.

Religion.... not even once...

 

[Incorruptible]

It's Obama's fault!

obama has done a lot to hurt the middle east

 

[Jhhnn]

No! There are much more Muslim extremists than Christians as well they are much more dangerous, cutting off heads, suicide bombers

Muslim extremists generally exist in parts of the planet where the rule of law is weak, leaving them freer to do as they please. They even run some parts of the planet, like KSA.

Christian extremists will act much the same given the chance, perhaps minus the cultural motif of suicide attacks. Witness Kony's LRA or the pronouncements of our own Christian Dominionists & Reconstructionists.