Prince Alwaleed on FNN right now!

[ToBeMe]

<< You always have to keep in mind that changing it to the extent that all of the radicals are appeased requires angering those who have been supported by it in the past. >>


Good Luck! I've also tried pointing this out numerous times but most just won't accept it/don't understand........if you ease support of one and strengthen another......you'll make new enemies......if you divert aid from some to send to new ones again, you're gonna make new enemies.......it seems so simple but in fact, if some of these guys could sit down and look at things, I'm sure they'd walk away scratching their heads on exactly how this could be done without creating a whole new list of enemies..... As for supporting Bin laden against Russia.....well, you're right....I guess we could've just let the USSR take Afghanistan....or better yet, we could have just gone in and fought them! Isn't it just vaguely possible to you that perhaps Bin laden is the one whom changed......and for the worse.....and it isn't all our fault????

 

[Finality]

School of the Americas......

 

[syf3r]

shikhan,
since you brought it up, and since my post was much too general for your taste... why don't *you* explain to *me* how my statements *do* apply to the foreign policies of other nations... here, i'll start you off (in trying to be more specific):
explain to me how the FP of canada, nepal, argentina, morrocco, switzerland, australia, and portugal, respectively, in the past century, put those countries into the same world-teetering situations as the one we find ourselves in right now. if you can get through those, which i doubt, i'll have another dozen or so for you... all in an attempt to show that whereas one country (u.s.a.) has gotten into these situation over and over and over and over again... there are dozens and dozens and dozens which have no such problems...

and if you reply with a lame "well they're not global superpowers" i'll reply with an equally lame "maybe it's because for the most part they mind their own business." but both would be a little right and a little wrong...

i'm out for the weekend...
syf3r.

 

[EXman]

All I gotta say is Rudy has got NUTS. I like that guy. Is he a democrat? I don't even care. 10mil is chump change to that Saudi not to mention it probably Osama's cousin or something.

 

[Fraggle]

RE: the Rudy quote.

there's a distinct difference between trying to find the reasons for an act

vs.

trying to find a way that an act can be considered reasonable.


unfortunately, Rudy Guiliani's quote seems to be against finding out the reasons for the attack. it may have been read out of context, but that's all I have to go on, not having read the speech. failing to scrutinize the CAUSE(s) of the attack, we allow for such horrors to occur again.

 

[shikhan]

<< shikhan, since you brought it up, and since my post was much too general for your taste... why don't *you* explain to *me* how my statements *do* apply to the foreign policies of other nations... here, i'll start you off (in trying to be more specific): explain to me how the FP of canada, nepal, argentina, morrocco, switzerland, australia, and portugal, in the past century, put those countries into the same world-teetering situations as the one we find ourselves in right now. if you can get through those, which i doubt, i'll have another dozen or so for you... all in an attempt to show that whereas one country (u.s.a.) has gotten into these situation over and over and over and over again... there are dozens and dozens and dozens which have no such problems... and if you reply with a lame "well they're not global superpowers" i'll reply with "maybe it's because for the most part they mind their own business." but both would be a little right and a little wrong... i'm out for the weekend... syf3r. >>



Ai, well, I will have to admit I came in headstrong into this argument. Sorry, I can't do what your asking with those countries, as they have very little FP [at least, as far as I know]. And hey, no fair with switz! Their always neutral!

My apologies in that respect.

However, If I take this time to clear it up a little, I was talking in regards to mainly other "powerful" coutries. BY definition, if you consider us a Global Superpower, it means we have an active stance on issues around the world. Otherwise we wouldn't be a Global power now would we?

But anyways, drawing parallels between us and othercountries. I'll even use the middle east countries as my example, if you would so let me.



<< because we have a habit of sticking our noses into their part of the world when/where/why/how/if it suits us... for the most part we don't care about the longterm effects... we don't pay attention to who has been hurt, only as long as OUR concerns have been addressed and the situation solved to our liking... >>



Well, this is quite intresting. First off, we have allies that we've promised to protect, or are inclined to protect due to a previous political/military entangelment. Now, this is not a US specific thing. Almost every country that is active in world politics has ties determined by treaties. In those debates, we must defend those whom we have promised to defend, up to the point where it goes agaisnt our best intrests. Remember, FP is about doing things, in the longrun, for the betterment of ourselves. For us, that view may be a "form" of peace, but I'll not get into that. For the middle east, its an entirly different thing, which I will also not go into; However, all countries use FP for their benifit. If their goals have been achived and maintained, that country has little to no inclination to change things for their loss. As much as that goes against my current belifes, I do accept that as politics.




<< i would say that until our foreign policy is adjusted to play a fair role for all parties concerned, we are indeed partly to blame. we stir up trouble over there, and have the audacity to ask "why, oh why?" when they come back and stir up trouble over here..? in some ways, (and believe me i hate to say this) bin laden is right in that this is something that the middle-east has been living with for years, decades in fact... and some (not all) of it can be attributed to what our past actions in the region have caused, with our support for one and snubbing of the other, but then the one we snubbed quickly becomes our ally when it suits us.. when they have something we can use... >>




As explained above, FP is a tool to gain the means to achieve one's goal. You say we poke our noses in and that is causing alot of trouble. And, hey, you may be right. But what happened when we tried to pull out of the middle east entangelment? Many, many countries, including many middle east countries, clammored that we come back to the table. They all wanted us on their side. Yet, i cannot stress the word sides enough. They wanted us their for THIER benifit. We were trying to pull out because [as i alturisticly believe ] we found out that we could not appease all sides. They are trying to use us for their benifit, that is their FP. Our FP is trying to get things to come out for our benfit. All countries who are involved inthe arena of world politics are guility of this as much as the next one.



<< and the fact that what they have been experiencing for decades has suddenly hit home on our soil and riled everyone up.. well that's just a further argument against us, in their eyes... we, the great caring america, has allowed this kind of stuff to go on in their part of the world for decades... we see it as a brief newsclip while we're flipping channels... "oh, a car bomb blew up in..." and 5 minutes we've forgotten all about it.. and those car bombs go off on a very regular basis... and now something tragic has been done to us, here, on our soil, and suddenly it's a crime, it's a tragedy, it's got to be stopped... because this time it happened to us... but the problem is that you've got a whole other side of the world that asks "what about when it was happening to us for the last half-century" and that serves to further their hate for us... >>



Thats true, and a sad case. However, this is where our "superiority" in global politics and millitary come in. [By the way, I use superiority in global politics to indicate that we have an extreamly strong position with many powerful countries in the world] They have felt the effects of terrorism themselves. We just did, and we get rilled up. I'm wondering if you are implying that they thing that we shouldn't get rilled up. If so, that would be awfully hypocritical because, like you said, theyve been feeling the effects of terrorism for half a century, yet they STILL get rilled up each time somethign happens. Perhaps not as much, but maybe thats because its become "common." They however, do usually respond both millitarily and pollitically. [If you haven't figured it out, my main thoughts are coming from the Israli-Pali conflicts]. If you dont believe me, look in news articles [and no, i'm not just reffering to US based papers. You can, with some time and effort, find papers/sites that are originating from that area of the world] I distincly recall hearing one story that chilled me to the bones. During a funeral in Pakistan, news got to them about a person in isreal mowing down a crowd of israli's and suddenly that funeral errupted into a celebration, as they celebrated their "retaliation".

Their are plenty of inccidents i can show you where a terrorist action against a country has moved the country to use millitary might. Just look in the middle east, its a daily occurance. Their using their millitary and political powers to try to "win." If you are to say that we should not use our millitary to attempt to capture the terrorist and bring them to what we deem as justice, i shall deem you hypocrytical.

 

[Balt]

Well, I'm not going to bother sorting out all your text, syf3r, because after reading only a few lines you already have a BIG false assumption.

There are people living in the Middle East that are richer than almost anywhere in the world. OPEC nations have plenty of money, because they have OIL remember? They are the ones who have us by the undercarriage, not vice versa.

If those in the Middle East want to blame someone for their poverty, they should look at the oil tycoons. Until they do that, just shut the hell up with the 'we caused this' crap.

If you want someone to have sympathy for, try looking at all of the African states. THOSE are the ones without money, and those are the ones that are getting screwed by us. As a matter of fact, much of that investment (which has caused their huge debt) was approved because the World Bank and IMF had so much money coming from the OPEC nations in the 70's, the very people whose 'poverty' you say is our fault. If we're exploiting anyone (and we are) it's the nations in Africa. Screw those in the Middle East who would rather jump on the USA-bashing bandwagon instead of looking at the rich oil tycoons that live down the street, and screw you.

I'm finished in this thread.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, this is a religious war for them, remember? They are committing these acts because we and the Israelis are 'infidels'

 

[jjones]

OMFG, another apologist blaming our foreign policy on what happened. you rattled off a list of countries that don't stick their nose in foreign policy. well, tell me what countries in the world go to those countries for help and what type of help do the countries on that list provide?

our foreign policy and diplomatic policy is a give and take situation just like anything in the world. and don't tell me that we take too much; we deal from strength and that's the way you play the game. we're not going to make everybody happy and that's that. we have a right to choose how and with whom we do business. i certainly don't agree with much of our foreign policy but that doesn't give any idiot with a grudge the right or reason to do what they did in NY, PA, and the Pentagon.

that group of terrorists do not speak for their own people nor any government. they are terrorists with a grudge plain and simple. and don't try to explain away their actions by asking why they have that grudge. i don't give a rat's a$$. they did what they did and now they're gonna pay. and i seriously hope this continues for a long, long time. these people should have been cleaned out a long time ago and steps should have been taken for years to disrupt and destroy their organizations but nobody wanted to do anything about it.