Prewar Iraq - what was that connection to terrorism again?

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"Prewar Iraq - what was that connection to terrorism again?"

Putin: Russia Told U.S. of Saddam Terror Plans

http://www.npr.org/templates/s...ry.php?storyId=1964156

"Russian President Vladimir Putin says that after Sept.11, but before the war in Iraq, Russia gave the Bush administration intelligence suggesting Saddam Hussein planned terrorist attacks on U.S. territory."

That good enough? Does this mean we can finally stop hearing there was no connection to terrorism and Saddam? You would think the links to the PLO would be enough....

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Tabb
Is there any link to 9/11 and Iraq?

I'll give you a cookie if you can give me the answer.

No, and I never claimed that, or ever believed there ever was

Yes, there are infact connections between Iraq and Terrorism, I am still waiting for proof that familes actually did receive payment for indiviuals who blew themsleves up. Saddam wasn't a religious man, but he did infact use religion to enforce his law.

A quick google would provide all the proof you need:

http://www.insightmag.com/main...ail&storyid=319351

Even as President George W. Bush and CIA Director George Tenet lay out the evidence of Iraq's operational ties to al-Qaeda terrorists, new documents seized by Israel from Yasser Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah and other terrorist operational centers in the West Bank show in extraordinary detail how Iraq has been funding terror and mayhem against Israeli civilians during the last two years.

Among Saddam's victims have been U.S. and European citizens who were visiting Israel. And yet for some reason, as with the evidence showing Iraq's alliance with al-Qaeda, few Western reporters have been willing to pay attention. A notable exception was a report aired Sept. 29 by CBS 60 Minutes correspondent Leslie Stahl. Citing captured documents provided by the Israelis, she revealed that Saddam's closest deputy, Vice President Taha Yasin Ramadan, personally had signed checks made out to Palestinian terrorist leaders who had organized suicide-bombing attacks.

Since dropping that bombshell, the Israelis have analyzed and offered to reporters hundreds of pages of documents that detail Iraqi money transfers and operational orders to what they now call an Iraqi "terror industry" in the West Bank and Gaza. The evidence is so overwhelming it appears almost mundane.

Captured documents include ledgers of "martyrs" who have carried out suicide operations against Israel, showing how much and when each was paid and the number of the check. It includes internal memoranda, computer disks, hard drives, videotapes and bank statements. In many cases the Israelis managed to seize checkbooks showing the stubs of these payments; in others, they have the actual wire transfers from Iraq.

"We knew all of this many years ago," chief analyst Reuven Ehrlich told Insight as he displayed hundreds of pages of letters, reports, bank statements and lists that showed payments to suicide bombers and their families by Iraq in recompense for murder. "But, until now, the proof has all been classified top secret or above. Now we can finally release the evidence to the public."

So far neither the United Nations nor the European Union has paid attention, despite their support for the extensive networks in Israel and the territories that erupt into strident activity whenever claims are made of an Israeli "massacre." It's not the first time they have ignored hard evidence of Iraqi misdeeds in their eagerness to rehabilitate the Iraqi dictator. Iraq used the Arab Liberation Front and the Ba'ath Party in Palestinian-controlled areas as "payment contractors," Ehrlich says ? part of a policy to encourage suicide-bombing attacks. Another organization, the Palestinian Liberation Front (PLF), headed by Mohammad Zaydan (aka Abu Abbas), was used by Iraq "as an operational tool for carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel." The PLF hijacked the Italian Achille Lauro cruise ship in 1986, tossing wheelchair-bound U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer overboard simply because he was a Jew.

In a rare intelligence scoop, the Israelis managed to capture active members of the PLF who confessed to having traveled to Iraq for military training. "Here you have a case where you have the documents, and then the individuals actually described in the documents," Ehrlich tells Insight at the Defense Ministry's Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center in Herzliyya. While in Iraq, he adds, they received operational instructions "to carry out terrorist acts against Israeli military and civilian targets." One PLF instructor in Iraq had been arrested in Italy during the Achille Lauro affair but later was released.

Insight reviewed some 350 pages of Iraq-related documents in both English and Arabic, in addition to hundreds of pages more on financial aid from Saudi Arabia and direct military assistance from Syria and Iran. The evidence of their involvement in Palestinian terrorist operations is massive, direct and overwhelming.

Once Operation Defensive Shield was launched in retaliation for the Passover massacre that killed 29 Israelis on March 27, the Iraqis made a conscious decision to step up payments to the families of suicide bombers "in order to encourage suicide attacks," the documents show. In a signed, handwritten letter, Iraqi Vice President Ramadan explains in detail how clandestine Ba'ath Party cells in the territories should be organized and designates the Arab Liberation Front as the main "payment contractor" of the Iraqi regime, an Israeli analysis of the documents states. Ramadan reiterates Iraq's eagerness to use Palestinian suicide-bomb attacks to help achieve "the complete liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea," a familiar code-phrase meaning the destruction of the state of Israel and its replacement by a Palestinian Arab state.

The Iraqis maintained a hierarchy of mayhem when handing out financial rewards to the families of dead terrorists. Until the Passover bombing in March, the families of suicide bombers were paid $15,000, whereas "ordinary" martyrs got $10,000. Realizing that more money meant more attacks, the Iraqis later upped the price for a "quality" suicide operation to $25,000, the equivalent of several years' wages for an average worker there. The documents show the Iraqis also distinguished between suicide bombers who successfully carried out their missions and those who blew themselves up without killing Jews. In the warped economy of terror, failure has a price greater than death.

At times, the documents have a macabre quality. In an internal memo sent from Jenin on May 9, the local Iraqi representative relays a dispute over how to classify a Nov. 27, 2001, attack against the Afula Central Bus Station in Israel. "The Arab Liberation Front representative in Jenin claims that this attack cannot be described as a suicide attack since its perpetrators did not carry explosive belts," the letter reads. The families of the two terrorists who emptied their automatic rifles into the crowd, killing two and wounding 48 persons, rejected this reasoning. "They insist that it was a suicide operation and demand that it be recognized as such in order to receive the [due] respect and financial rights." If accepted, they will receive a "President Saddam Hussein Grant" of $25,000.

According to the captured documents, the Iraqis show a remarkable ecumenism when it comes to paying the assassins, giving equally to the families of bombers working with Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Arafat's own Fatah movement. Often the Palestinian groups themselves appeal directly for the Iraqi grants. In one such case, the Ramallah district office of Fatah issued an official declaration on June 17 certifying that one of its members successfully had carried out a suicide-bombing attack. "The Fatah movement in Ramallah and al-Bireh hereby declares that the martyr Amer Muhammad Issa Shakukani is one of the Intifada al-Aqsa martyrs, who committed suicide during a suicide attack by exploding a car bomb in the Tel Aviv area on 24 May 2002." It worked: The bomber never passed "Go," but his family collected $25,000 from their rich Uncle Saddam.

Captured bank statements of the Iraqi groups showed they had received more than $9 million in direct payments from Iraq during the last two years, with the effect of dramatically escalating the violence. In Arab press accounts, the Iraqis boasted of having spent more than twice that amount to support and promote "martyrdom" attacks.

The captured documents also make it dramatically clear that Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) not only winked and nodded at the Iraqi terror payments but actively encouraged them. "The Palestinian Authority, for its part, enables the Iraqi regime to freely operate in the PA areas via the Arab Liberation Front, the Palestine Liberation Front and the Ba'ath Party," an Israeli military-intelligence analysis states. "It cooperates with Iraq in providing aid to the families of killed and suicide terrorists and enables Iraq to freely disseminate the propaganda messages of the Iraqi regime [hostile to Israel and to the United States] in Palestinian society and media."

When the Israeli army first went into the West Bank town of Tulkarm in early April after the Passover massacre in neighboring Netanya, the mood of the reservists called up from their day jobs was not tender. "We went into PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] offices [with] guns blazing," one Israeli soldier says. But when they came to the computer room of the Tulkarm Zakat Society, the principal Muslim charity the Israelis knew was coordinating terrorist attacks, a 20-year-old computer-science student suggested to his commander that instead of destroying the computers they should extract the hard drives. The rest, as they say, is history.

From those hard drives thousands of pages of documents soon spewed forth, laying out in extraordinary detail a money trail leading from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq directly into the pockets of terrorist commanders responsible for the murders of hundreds of innocents. They were killed on buses, in pizzerias and in discotheques. They were killed in shopping malls and in the streets while coming to the rescue of other victims. They were killed for no other reason than because they were Jews.

When the Israelis released the first set of captured documents seized from PLO offices and "charity" centers earlier this year [see "Documents Detail Saudi Terror Links," May 22], Arafat and his PA initially cried foul. "No longer," says Ehrlich. "Now they are demanding that we return the documents to them, which we have no intention of doing."

The reaction of the Saudis and the Iraqis was "sheer panic," Ehrlich adds. "Each country has its own modus operandi, its favorite groups. The Iraqis work directly with the terrorist cells. The Iranians go through Arafat's Palestinian Authority. The Saudis have been at the game much longer and are much more careful to cover their tracks. They use a whole series of apparently charitable organizations, so they claim that their money has been funding human needs and social services, not terror."

The United Nations and the European Union criticized Israel harshly in April for "reoccupying" Palestinian towns and refugee camps it had evacuated under the Oslo process. But the direct correlation between the Israeli military presence in Palestinian areas and the lack of successful terrorist attacks is overwhelming. "When we go in, we disrupt their networks," one Israeli intelligence officer said. "When we leave, they come back. It's as simple as that."

Witness the attack on an Israeli bus at a junction outside the northern Israeli town of Hadera during rush hour on Oct. 21. Two teen-agers from a nearby Arab town that the Israeli army had left two days earlier under intense international pressure drove a four-wheel-drive vehicle packed with several hundred pounds of explosives into the rear of a public bus that had stopped to pick up passengers. Fourteen Israelis were killed and another 30 wounded. Elsewhere in Israel, bus drivers turned up their radios so the passengers could follow the news minute by minute. It was not a happy time.

"We have three circles of prevention," the commanding officer of Israel's border guards, Maj. Gen. David Tsur, tells Insight at his headquarters outside of Jerusalem. "The first is to intercept terrorist cells using good intelligence and then to attack them in the territories or the security zone where they are hiding. The second is to establish a buffer zone through checkpoints and roving patrols, to keep them from entering Israel. The third is through citizen awareness. We're expanding this circle of security by training private companies who rent out security guards. We have the legal power to close down a mall or a street or a restaurant if we are not satisfied with the security. You don't have that in the United States."

Most public malls in the United States have security guards to prevent people from shoplifting. "In Israel, we check people as they come in. We don't care what they've got as they go out," Tsur says.

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Tabb
Is there any link to 9/11 and Iraq?

I'll give you a cookie if you can give me the answer.

No, and I never claimed that, or ever believed there ever was

Yes, there are infact connections between Iraq and Terrorism, I am still waiting for proof that familes actually did receive payment for indiviuals who blew themsleves up. Saddam wasn't a religious man, but he did infact use religion to enforce his law.

there are infact connections between Iraq and Terrorism, yes

but not to 9/11 specifically, which was his question

 

[Alistar7]

"(3) The postwar hunt for weapons shows that Hussein didn't have the capability to produce WMD. No links to al-Queda or groups out to get the US have been shown. "

He still maintained the dual use technology as well as the knowledge and technical expertise.

Of course if you were really a sincere poster looking for long forgotton evidence you would accept what has been presented, instead you are nothing more than a bush basher who apparently wasnt even objective enough to see what really happened let alone remember. You stated:


"I don't know if I'll be able to get a straight answer from supporters of the war."


I gave you a straight answer based on fact, Putin gave Bush intel showing Saddam planned terrorist attacks against the US, now accept that reality.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Tabb
Is there any link to 9/11 and Iraq?

I'll give you a cookie if you can give me the answer.

No, and I never claimed that, or ever believed there ever was

Yes, there are infact connections between Iraq and Terrorism, I am still waiting for proof that familes actually did receive payment for indiviuals who blew themsleves up. Saddam wasn't a religious man, but he did infact use religion to enforce his law.

there are infact connections between Iraq and Terrorism, yes

but not to 9/11 specifically, which was his question

My bad I haven't fully read that thread.

 

[MailBoxHead]

The connection is that our pleas to the U.N. were in regard to Saddams weapons and intent to bring them to US soil.

Then the moment the action started and not a second late the action is dubbed "Operation Iraqi Freedom"

Yup, that's what we signed up for alright. Dumbasses that are over 50% of you that would re-elect this lying piece of crap. Yes Kerry is a moron but it's anyone but and unfortunately you get spoonfed from the Dems.

Your freedom of voting is illusory.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Your moron of choice sucks. Elect my moron of choice instead.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Pandaren

(2) Supporter of terrorism? Saddam Hussein is said to have given money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers against Israel. But Saddam Hussein was also a secularist dictator who was the enemy of Islamic fundamentalism (Iran). I doubt he would have harbored people who were just as much out to get him as they were out to get the U.S..

Are you ignorant? Theyre not fundamentalists, they hate Jews and Israel, thats why they blow themselves up, to kill Israelis. Saddam also hates Jews and Israel. In fact he has many times expressed this publicly. In fact he sent missles to Israel in the first Gulf War. There are actual pictures of the checks written to Palestinian terrorists who committed homicide bombings on Israeli citizens from ?President Saddam Hussein?s Grant.?

You

Are

An

Idiot

America went to war with Iraq. Who's war is this? Saddam didn't pay terrorists to blow up americans on american soil. It's amazing how so many people say that Israel has nothing to do with the war, yet when you clearly lay out issues that effect Israel, one has to questions some people's motives and intelligence around here

I certainly hope that this whole Iraq adventure wasn't to do the dirty work of Israel. Israel is more than capable of taking care of themselves. Are they gonna bribe us into attacking Iran or Syria. Are you up to task of fighting other nations battles for them?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead
The connection is that our pleas to the U.N. were in regard to Saddams weapons and intent to bring them to US soil.

Then the moment the action started and not a second late the action is dubbed "Operation Iraqi Freedom"

Yup, that's what we signed up for alright. Dumbasses that are over 50% of you that would re-elect this lying piece of crap. Yes Kerry is a moron but it's anyone but and unfortunately you get spoonfed from the Dems.

Your freedom of voting is illusory.

Putins intel was proof enough saddam was planning terrorist attacks against the US. Add to that his known willingness and capability to use WMD (he had not fully complied, most western govts. own intel suggested that threat was still real), what would you have waited for?

I reread Bush's two statements to the American people recently, the one where he gave Saddam his ultimatum, and the one where he said TIMES UP. Both times all major points were stressed INCLUDING the freedom from oppression for the Iraqi people. Your memory serves you poorly, but your personal attacks are appreciated. Wondering why I put that one in bold, look up "irony"....

 

[Krk3561]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: Krk3561

Originally posted by: Pandaren

(2) Supporter of terrorism? Saddam Hussein is said to have given money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers against Israel. But Saddam Hussein was also a secularist dictator who was the enemy of Islamic fundamentalism (Iran). I doubt he would have harbored people who were just as much out to get him as they were out to get the U.S..

Are you ignorant? Theyre not fundamentalists, they hate Jews and Israel, thats why they blow themselves up, to kill Israelis. Saddam also hates Jews and Israel. In fact he has many times expressed this publicly. In fact he sent missles to Israel in the first Gulf War. There are actual pictures of the checks written to Palestinian terrorists who committed homicide bombings on Israeli citizens from ?President Saddam Hussein?s Grant.?

You

Are

An

Idiot

America went to war with Iraq. Who's war is this? Saddam didn't pay terrorists to blow up americans on american soil. It's amazing how so many people say that Israel has nothing to do with the war, yet when you clearly lay out issues that effect Israel, one has to questions some people's motives and intelligence around here

I certainly hope that this whole Iraq adventure wasn't to do the dirty work of Israel. Israel is more than capable of taking care of themselves. Are they gonna bribe us into attacking Iran or Syria. Are you up to task of fighting other nations battles for them?

The war is about fighting terrorism and those who support it. Palestinian suicide bombers were one of the few groups he had connections to and supported, not the only. I was just using the most obvious and clear example. Refer to my post with the 46 page document from the Senate Intel Committee about the war in Iraq outlaying Saddam's ties to terror.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Krk3561

The war is about fighting terrorism and those who support it. Palestinian suicide bombers were one of the few groups he had connections to and supported, not the only.

So we're doing Israel's fighting? Just great:|

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Krk3561

The war is about fighting terrorism and those who support it. Palestinian suicide bombers were one of the few groups he had connections to and supported, not the only.

So we're doing Israel's fighting? Just great:|

That's old news, where ya been....

This discussion also taking place here:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...6998&enterthread=y

 

[Pandaren]

Here is the article about the Putin statement:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/...t/06/18/saddam.terror/

The Russian leader did not elaborate on any details of the warnings of terror plots or mention whether they were tied to the al Qaeda terror network.

The United States never cited Russian intelligence when it was making its case for the war and Putin said the information did not change his country's opposition to the war

If this intelligence was so good, so compelling, why weren't the American people told? Why didn't the Bush administration come out and say "look, here is proof that Saddam Hussein has plans to commit devestating attacks against the US. The threat is clear and we can in good faith take him out."

From this conservative leaning news source:

http://newsmax.com/archives/ar.../2004/6/18/91140.shtml

In Washington, a U.S. official said Putin's information did not add to what the United States already knew about Saddam's intentions.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Putin's tip didn't give a time or place for a possible attack.

So there's no information on the time, place or manner of attack. Without information, there's no proof of a plan and I can't accept that as fact. This basically amounts to no information other than Saddam wants to get back at the US, and nobody was under the illusion that Saddam liked the US. I just don't see enough proof of danger to justify going to war.

I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5053682/

Zinni has openly attacked the war, but [Tom] Clancy reluctantly acknowledged his own concerns. He declined repeatedly to comment on the war, before saying that it lacked a ?casus belli,? or suitable provocation.

And don't tell me Tom Clancy is some idealistic protestor type. I can't think of many more people who are as patriotic and interested in the military as Tom Clancy (I really like his books on Armored Cav and Submarines ).

If there's a genuine threat to the U.S., I'm all for military action. I've always supported our Armed forces and I thought the cutbacks of the 90's were too severe. But I cannot support leaders who send troops into harms way without clear cause.

As for dual use technology, almost anything has dual civilian/military use. Fertilizer can be used to make bombs or grow plants. Computers can control missile launchers or irrigation devices. Aluminum tubes can be used in civillian aircraft or missiles. Dual use isn't convincing enough an argument.

The burden on the government for preemptive action is a heavy one. If we're going to hit someone first, we better have a damn good reason. We need to know to a reasonable certainty that the other party has the intent, means, time and place of an attack.

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"(3) The postwar hunt for weapons shows that Hussein didn't have the capability to produce WMD. No links to al-Queda or groups out to get the US have been shown. "

He still maintained the dual use technology as well as the knowledge and technical expertise.
...
"I don't know if I'll be able to get a straight answer from supporters of the war."
...
I gave you a straight answer based on fact, Putin gave Bush intel showing Saddam planned terrorist attacks against the US, now accept that reality.

 

[Pandaren]

C'mon, nobody wants to respond to this?

Edit: The fact that nobody responded to any of my points is pretty conclusive proof of what I stated before. Nobody can give me a reasonable explaination as to why we invaded Iraq.