Preventive Medical Care

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fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

I thought the "everybody else is doing it" defense stopped working at about age 8?

"Free" medical care is a "right", didnt you know. Everyone DESERVES free medical care. After that will come cars and entertainment. I for one cannot wait for my government provided 80" plasma. After all, entertainment is a right I say!

/taps sarcasm meter...

Not having medical care can and will kill you. Not having and sitting in front of a plasma screen will probably extend your lifespan...

:p

Free yachts for black drug dealers and illegals, and a lifetime supply of free diapers for BoberFett. Let's do it for the lulz.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
Somehow I don't know that I buy this one. Admittedly I haven't read all the details, but it seems to be a logical conclusion that if you can catch some diseases in their early stages then it's easier to operate on a small area than a large. It has to be easier to remove a small tumor than it is a huge one that has tentacled out around surrounding tissue.


Edit: And falldown boy is still not funny. You have a worse sense of humor than Republicans, and that takes a lot.

It is true that for the ONE person that gets sick you will save money on that ONE person. However, the premise of the argument is that you are providing this care to everyone and not everyone would have gotten sick. This means that overall your costs would be greater because you've basically 'wasted' money by giving preventative care to someone who wouldn't develop the problem regardless. At least that's what the CBO is saying. It makes complete sense but then again you are playing with lives so that is where the line will be drawn.

*edit* didn't realize the thread had gone 1.5 pages or I would never have responded with something that has already been stated! oops!
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern

Then what seems to be the perceived problem?? Unless of course this preventative medicine wiil help those damn, pesky poor people live longer.

See how you are.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
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Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern

Then what seems to be the perceived problem?? Unless of course this preventative medicine wiil help those damn, pesky poor people live longer.

See how you are.

If it does in fact cost more to provide this preventative care then who gets to foot the bill?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: Fern

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Our seniors do, too. It's called Medicare.

I'll consider giving up on publicly funded health care when those lying, bloated Congressional whores selling their votes to big insurance and big pharma give up their own free, fully funded, top or the line Congressional medical care.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
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Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern

Then what seems to be the perceived problem?? Unless of course this preventative medicine wiil help those damn, pesky poor people live longer.

See how you are.

If it does in fact cost more to provide this preventative care then who gets to foot the bill?

It probably costs more to prevent crime than to just allow it too. Who pays for that?
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
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Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern

Then what seems to be the perceived problem?? Unless of course this preventative medicine wiil help those damn, pesky poor people live longer.

See how you are.

If it does in fact cost more to provide this preventative care then who gets to foot the bill?

It probably costs more to prevent crime than to just allow it too. Who pays for that?

Answering a question with a question is a pretty stupid way to answer a question. Don't go through life stupid, son. (I do like how you imply that you agree preventative care does more than likely increase cost and not lead to savings as the Dems want everyone else to believe.)
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Its just the lower middle class that suffers. Too rich for Medicaid. Too poor for private insurance.


Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

And that's really great! After all, once they go bankrupt in our glorious private system on Medicaid, the lack of available insurance that covers their preexisting condition really makes them want to go out and get a job.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

I thought the "everybody else is doing it" defense stopped working at about age 8?

"Free" medical care is a "right", didnt you know. Everyone DESERVES free medical care. After that will come cars and entertainment. I for one cannot wait for my government provided 80" plasma. After all, entertainment is a right I say!

Slippery slope not found.

There are free bus passes for the poor and lots of free entertainment in most places.

And surely, you earned all of your money all by yourself. You never drove on evil public roads or attended evil public schools and never worked for a company that used those. You have your own private military and would demand that our military let you protect your own property.

If you don't do it all by yourself and rely on Government for anything, you're an evil socialist. Remember that.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Originally posted by: Fern
Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern
....don't you see a problem with this?
Do people get to go on disability after they have their foot amputated due to diabetes?

After waiting 5 months to "make sure" you are permanently disabled, you then have to wait an additional two years before you can get on Medicare.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern

Then what seems to be the perceived problem?? Unless of course this preventative medicine wiil help those damn, pesky poor people live longer.

See how you are.

If it does in fact cost more to provide this preventative care then who gets to foot the bill?

LOL, answering a question with a question??

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Answering a question with a question is a pretty stupid way to answer a question. Don't go through life stupid, son. (I do like how you imply that you agree preventative care does more than likely increase cost and not lead to savings as the Dems want everyone else to believe.)


Anyways, to answer YOUR question. The same society that provides everybody else their health care. How is it some people can be working full time and NOT HAVE OR BE ABLE TO AFFORD DECENT HEALTH CARE!!!

The problem is there are so many tightie righties who are afraid they might not have as good of health care as they have now should we as a nation decide to set some standards like they have in other industrialized nations.

Cost doesn't matter to some assholes, just who's getting the care and whether or not they "deserve" it.. I dare say if health care cost doubled from what it is today and the number of people without insurance was double what it is now, there would still be twits arguing about the bill.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
I support universal health care because it works and is used in every other first world country, we're just so horribly afraid of our poors getting remotely similar care to the middle class that we have to make all sorts of bogeymen

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Often, when the middle class gets something serious requiring major medical they end up on Medicaid too. (After they're bankrupt because of annual or lifetime limits on benefits).

Fern

Then what seems to be the perceived problem?? Unless of course this preventative medicine wiil help those damn, pesky poor people live longer.

See how you are.

If it does in fact cost more to provide this preventative care then who gets to foot the bill?

LOL, answering a question with a question??

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Answering a question with a question is a pretty stupid way to answer a question. Don't go through life stupid, son. (I do like how you imply that you agree preventative care does more than likely increase cost and not lead to savings as the Dems want everyone else to believe.)


Anyways, to answer YOUR question. The same society that provides everybody else their health care. How is it some people can be working full time and NOT HAVE OR BE ABLE TO AFFORD DECENT HEALTH CARE!!!

The problem is there are so many tightie righties who are afraid they might not have as good of health care as they have now should we as a nation decide to set some standards like they have in other industrialized nations.

Cost doesn't matter to some assholes, just who's getting the care and whether or not they "deserve" it.. I dare say if health care cost doubled from what it is today and the number of people without insurance was double what it is now, there would still be twits arguing about the bill.

Well to be fair, he actually made a statement following his question which is what my question was in reference to. Regardless... valiant attempt so I shall still offer up a "well played, sir!".

It isn't so much about tightie righties imho. There are just so many people out there who will take any bill as a good first step regardless of how big a piece of shit it is. One of these days everyone will (hopefully) open their eyes and realize it isn't the Republicans holding this up. It isn't the Democrats. It's both of them. The whole thing needs to be overhauled from the bottom up but the industry has enough people bought and paid for that it will never happen. Until then we can continue to argue on the internet about the scraps while they take home the spoils. But it's okay, all the sheep will continue to think they are doing positive work in passing around the party message that was conceived for them.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Funny how so many simply refuse to accept something when it goes counter to their beliefs, no matter what the evidence.

New England Journey of Medicine, American Diabetes Association, American Heart Association, and the American Cancer Society all had studies showing the same thing - increases in preventative medical care would cost more money in the long (and short) run.

It's funny reading your contortions trying to explain why all these groups are wrong, and you're right. :laugh: Kind of like the 16th century experts trying to explain why Copernicus was wrong and that the earth really was at the center of the universe: ideology over evidence.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
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Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: DrPizza

wtf? How are mammograms and other screenings considered "preventive care" rather than "early diagnosis"?

Preventive care: encouraging patients to eat healthier, exercise more, stop smoking cigarettes.

And back to their cost analysis - I don't see any indication that they've included the loss of productivity as a cost - they're only considering the direct costs associated with the medical treatment. For every working 50 year old, making 80k or more salary, that dies a premature death from heart disease, or is on extended disability for heart disease - how much less are they paying in taxes? How much less are they contributing to the nations GDP?

+1

Regardless of the source, "counterintuitive" doesn't begin to say how full of shit I find this article. As an engineer, it makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. Add to that the fact that prevention and early detection result in less suffering and debilitation for those who become ill.

Well I'm a Ph.D. engineer (there! take that! lol)... this study makes perfect sense to me. More to the point, it doesn't matter whether I'm an engineer or a janitor.... present studies and research clearly support the conclusion that preventative care/tests is more expensive than just treating problems when they surface (within the framework of our present medical system).

Now yes, of course it is moral and ethical to place more emphasis on preventative care to improve quality of life BUT that is not what Fern's post was about. He is simply posting facts... the CBO says preventative care is more expensive.

Obama, et al have this information and are purposely still saying it's cheaper without any calculations to back those statements up... that is effectively lying to me, political style.

That being said I want to move towards UHC and I want more focus on preventative care and screening... but I don't want to be deluded into thinking it won't cost anything either.

Also... not to shoot holes in the whole argument... but if you take all the 50 year olds make 80k+ per year... probably better than 90% of them on a company insurance plan and so don't cost the government anything right now. Considering the bigger money makers is not really fair, we'd have to take some average salary that removes the ultra wealthy (because those guys won't be on UHC no matter what)...
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Identifying/Nipping a problem in the bud before it becomes a real issue also saves a lot of $$ too.

We as a society mostly agree that we should care for our sick/elderly, which costs money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Healthcare reform with this in mind will not be cheap, but it is still necessary. YMMV as to how much... The CBO report misses the point...

The CBO did not miss the point... their job to try to determine economic fact. Given medical data and preventive care/test cost data, preventative for 100% of population is significantly more expensive than just treating people when they become ill.

The issue here is UHC proponents are saying 100% populace preventative care is cheaper without data to back it up... now reports suggest it is quite the opposite.

Look i voted for Obama too but just because i voted for doesn't mean I'm gonna suck his dick and let him lie through his teeth to me. If it is going to cost a shit ton of money and raise my taxes... fine, whatever... just tell me the truth so i can prepare, please. Don't lie to me.

But right now... this present incarnation of UHC legislation, whether it passes or not i don't care... it is a pile of shit... i like it even less now that Obama and dems in congress are no longer sticking to their guns... they are making far too many concessions to interest groups.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fern

Our poor have great medical care. It's free too.

It's called Medicaid.

Our seniors do, too. It's called Medicare.

I'll consider giving up on publicly funded health care when those lying, bloated Congressional whores selling their votes to big insurance and big pharma give up their own free, fully funded, top or the line Congressional medical care.

Yeah... this more or less why i'm in UHC boat too. I fucking hate our form of government right now. I have only met like 3 senators but every one that i met, when I shook hands I like I was shaking hands with the devil himself.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
There are plenty of reasons why preventative care is a good thing, you can't easily put a price tag on having people be able to more fully live their live in good health. Still, that's not the argument people like Obama and Pelosi are making. They are stating unequivocally that this will save us all money, when all evidence we have either doesn't confirm their statements or outright refutes them. Not surprising, both sides have taken to outright lying to push their agenda, and we as the voters have chosen to accept that as "normal".
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Identifying/Nipping a problem in the bud before it becomes a real issue also saves a lot of $$ too.

We as a society mostly agree that we should care for our sick/elderly, which costs money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Healthcare reform with this in mind will not be cheap, but it is still necessary. YMMV as to how much... The CBO report misses the point...

The CBO did not miss the point... their job to try to determine economic fact. Given medical data and preventive care/test cost data, preventative for 100% of population is significantly more expensive than just treating people when they become ill.

The issue here is UHC proponents are saying 100% populace preventative care is cheaper without data to back it up... now reports suggest it is quite the opposite.

Look i voted for Obama too but just because i voted for doesn't mean I'm gonna suck his dick and let him lie through his teeth to me. If it is going to cost a shit ton of money and raise my taxes... fine, whatever... just tell me the truth so i can prepare, please. Don't lie to me.

But right now... this present incarnation of UHC legislation, whether it passes or not i don't care... it is a pile of shit... i like it even less now that Obama and dems in congress are no longer sticking to their guns... they are making far too many concessions to interest groups.

The CBO didn't miss their point, but the overall point that those engaged in the healthcare debate are trying to make. Not everything is about comparing $x vs $y. There are also other economic factors that are beyond the scope of the report. Yet, people will cite this report like it is the final word and reject any prospect of reform. This is what I fear will come of the report.

The current bill is crap. The Dems did not stick to their guns and I fear that will hurt them (and us) in the long run on this issue. As I've said before though, a pile of crap is always preferable to a flaming pile of crap, which is what we are currently stuck with. Taxes will have to go up and private insurance/drug companies will have to be reined in. Lets just get it over with already...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Somehow I don't know that I buy this one. Admittedly I haven't read all the details, but it seems to be a logical conclusion that if you can catch some diseases in their early stages then it's easier to operate on a small area than a large. It has to be easier to remove a small tumor than it is a huge one that has tentacled out around surrounding tissue.

For any individual case that is correct.

Preventative care does have costs. What the studies found is that a whole bunch of cheaper preventative care only actually uncovers a few caes where serious care is needed. I.e., the aggregate costs of the preventative care exceeds the savings obtained in a few serious cases.

I'll copy some of the CBP report that explains it above in my original post.

Fern

So what they found is that some preventative care is good and efficient, and some preventative care is not. All this really does is inform us that we should more carefully evaluate our preventative care options, and interestingly enough this bill strengthens the ability for panels and research such as this to be implemented.

Thanks CBO, next time I need this sort of information I will contact the Department of Finding Out Incredibly Obvious Things.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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Originally posted by: Fern
Many lefties supporting UHC have long argued that preventative medicine will save us money and help to pay for insuring the uninsured. Looks to be the exact opposite

Link to CBO letter in pdf

New England Journey of Medicine, American Diabetes Association, American Heart Association, and the American Cancer Society all had studies showing the same thing - increases in preventative medical care would cost more money in the long (and short) run.

Here's some of the language from the CBO letter to Congress explaining why it costs more:

Preventive Medical Care

Preventive medical care includes services such as cancer screening, cholesterol management, and vaccines. In making its estimates of the budgetary effects of expanded governmental support for preventive care, CBO takes into account any
estimated savings that would result from greater use of such care as well as the estimated costs of that additional care. Although different types of preventive care have different effects on spending, the evidence suggests that for most preventive
services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall.

That result may seem counterintuitive. For example, many observers point to cases in which a simple medical test, if given early enough, can reveal a condition that is treatable at a fraction of the cost of treating that same illness after it has
progressed. In such cases, an ounce of prevention improves health and reduces
spending?for that individual. But when analyzing the effects of preventive care
on total spending for health care, it is important to recognize that doctors do not
know beforehand which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert
one case of acute illness, it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to
many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway. Even when the unit cost of a particular preventive service is low, costs can accumulate
quickly when a large number of patients are treated preventively. Judging the
overall effect on medical spending requires analysts to calculate not just the
savings from the relatively few individuals who would avoid more expensive
treatment later, but also the costs for the many who would make greater use of
preventive care.2 As a result, preventive care can have the largest benefits relative
to costs when it is targeted at people who are most likely to suffer from a
particular medical problem; however, such targeting can be difficult because
preventive services are generally provided to patients who have the potential to
contract a given disease but have not yet shown symptoms of having it.

Researchers who have examined the effects of preventive care generally find that
the added costs of widespread use of preventive services tend to exceed the
savings from averted illness. An article published last year in the New England
Journal of Medicine provides a good summary of the available evidence on how
preventive care affects costs.3 After reviewing hundreds of previous studies of
preventive care, the authors report that slightly fewer than 20 percent of the
services that were examined save money, while the rest add to costs. Providing a
specific example of the benefits and costs of preventive care, another recent study
conducted by researchers from the American Diabetes Association, the American
Heart Association, and the American Cancer Society estimated the effects of
achieving widespread use of several highly recommended preventive measures
aimed at cardiovascular disease?such as monitoring blood pressure levels for
diabetics and cholesterol levels for individuals at high risk of heart disease and
using medications to reduce those levels.4 The researchers found that those steps
would substantially reduce the projected number of heart attacks and strokes that
occurred but would also increase total spending on medical care because the
ultimate savings would offset only about 10 percent of the costs of the preventive
services, on average. Of particular note, that study sought to capture both the
costs and benefits of providing preventive care over a 30-year period.

Here's an article on it by Charles Krauthamer. I know many of you on the left don't like him, so just stick with the original letter from the CBO if you're so inclined:

By Charles Krauthammer

In the 48 hours of June 15-16, President Obama lost the health-care debate. First, a letter from the Congressional Budget Office to Sen. Edward Kennedy reported that his health committee's reform bill would add $1 trillion in debt over the next decade. Then the CBO reported that the other Senate bill, being written by the Finance Committee, would add $1.6 trillion.

The central contradiction of Obamacare was fatally exposed: From his first address to Congress, Obama insisted on the dire need for restructuring the health-care system because out-of-control costs were bankrupting the Treasury and wrecking the U.S. economy - yet the Democrats' plans would make the problem worse.

Accordingly, Democrats have trotted out various tax proposals to close the gap. Obama's idea of limits on charitable and mortgage-interest deductions went nowhere, as did the House's income-tax surcharge on millionaires. And Obama dares not tax employer-provided health insurance because of his campaign pledge of no middle-class tax hikes.

Desperation time. What do you do? Sprinkle fairy dust on every health-care plan, and present your deus ex machina: prevention.

Free mammograms and diabetes tests and checkups for all, promise Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer, writing in USA Today. Prevention, they assure us, will not just make us healthier; it also "will save money."

Obama followed suit in his New Hampshire town hall meeting last week, touting prevention as amazingly dual-purpose: "It saves lives. It also saves money."

Reform proponents repeat this like a mantra. Because it seems so intuitive, it has become conventional wisdom. But like most conventional wisdom, it is wrong. Overall, preventive care increases medical costs.

This inconvenient truth comes, once again, from the CBO. In an Aug. 7 letter to Rep. Nathan Deal, CBO director Doug Elmendorf wrote: "Researchers who have examined the effects of preventive care generally find that the added costs of widespread use of preventive services tend to exceed the savings from averted illness."


How can that be? If you prevent somebody from getting a heart attack, aren't you necessarily saving money? The fallacy here is confusing the individual with society.

For the individual, catching something early generally reduces later spending for that condition. But, explained Elmendorf, we don't know in advance which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case, "it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway." And this costs society money that would not have been spent otherwise.

Think of it this way: Assume that a screening test for disease X costs $500, and finding it early averts $10,000 of costly treatment at a later stage. Are you saving money? Well, if one in 10 of those who are screened tests positive, society is saving $5,000. But if only one in 100 would get that disease, society is shelling out $40,000 more than it would without the preventive care.

That's a hypothetical case. What's the actuality in the United States today? A study in the journal Circulation found that for cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, "if all the recommended prevention activities were applied with 100 percent success," the prevention would cost almost 10 times as much as the savings, increasing the country's total medical bill by 162 percent.

Elmendorf also cited a definitive assessment in the New England Journal of Medicine that reviewed hundreds of studies on preventive care and found that more than 80 percent of preventive measures added to medical costs.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be preventing illness. Of course we should. But in medicine, as in life, there is no free lunch. The idea that prevention is somehow intrinsically economically different from treatment - that treatment increases costs and prevention lowers them - is simply nonsense.

Prevention is a wondrous good, but in the aggregate, it costs society money. Nothing wrong with that. That's the whole premise of medicine: Treating a heart attack or setting a broken leg also costs society. But we do it because it alleviates human suffering. Preventing a heart attack with statins, or breast cancer with mammograms, is costly. But we do it because it reduces human suffering.

However, prevention is not, as so widely advertised, healing on the cheap. It is not the magic bullet for health-care costs.

You will hear some variation of that claim a hundred times in the coming health-care debate. Whenever you do, remember: It's nonsense - empirically demonstrable and CBO-certified.


Another (of many) good reasons to slow down on this. It takes time to seperate the wheat (truth) from the chaff (BS, and/or lies). I think we're still clealry in the process of sorting which is which.

How did Obama and the Dems get this so wrong given all the above reputable medical organizations finding to the contrary? Did those drafting the UHC proposal simply ignore it because it didn't fit their agenda and hope we'd never find out? Or, are they just incompetent? (Both?)

Fern

i might be looking at it wrong ( i just breezed the article), but it looks like they are comparing the costs of providing checks for all these things to all applicable people and the benefit gained. Not everyone shoudl be given preventative medicine for everything, i for instance have no risk factors for diabetes, and no reason to suspect that i would, i should not get or pursue preemptive medicine for diabetes. Those who are at risk, should.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Originally posted by: VinylxScratches
My Mom's paying 500 bucks a month with Cobra. We need a reform....

And if she was in an accident, injured, and had medical bills totaling $50,000 that $500 doesn't seem so bad now does it?

She could CHOOSE to take the risk and not have insurance but then she would live with the consequences.

Hell, my utility bill was $400+ for electricity alone last month. Do we need "utility reform"?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
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Originally posted by: Patranus
Originally posted by: VinylxScratches
My Mom's paying 500 bucks a month with Cobra. We need a reform....

And if she was in an accident, injured, and had medical bills totaling $50,000 that $500 doesn't seem so bad now does it?

She could CHOOSE to take the risk and not have insurance but then she would live with the consequences.

Hell, my utility bill was $400+ for electricity alone last month. Do we need "utility reform"?

If the average person's electric bill was more than $400 a month for the US (and really to keep the ratios the same it would be more like $900 a month as the average family health premium is $1100 a month or so), you better believe it people would be screaming for utility reform.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: VinylxScratches
My Mom's paying 500 bucks a month with Cobra. We need a reform....

Lots of people just like your mom, too... lots of people who can't even pay 500 a month for healthcare because no company will even take the risk at 500 a month. This IS why we need reform... but handing the keys to the government isn't the answer i want to see.

But I think we can move towards a reform that does not involve the government eventually running everything in the medical field.