Pretty good article about the real root of gun violence.

[HumblePie]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/daniel-zimmerman/don-natale/#more-195661

Vast majority of gun violence in this country from criminal homicides come from drug related crime. Has been this way in the US since prohibition times.

For gun related homicides you have these categories.

1) Drug related crime
2) Suicide
3) Armed robberies/burglaries gone bad
4) Justified self defense homicides
5) Crimes of passion
6) Serial killers
7) Mass murders/killing spree's looking to go out in a blaze of glory so to speak
8) Accidental shootings

That's about it. Those are about the order of which gun related deaths happen. The trick is to reducing gun related deaths is to look at each category and see what can be done about the underlying root cause. Because if you take away guns, ALL THOSE categories of deaths will not be reduced at all. The method of violence will just change from guns to other choices of dealing death.

As the writer of the article makes a joke about, his purchases of guns has not made any impact on criminal gun violence at all, but those anti-gun nuts that like to smoke an occasional blunt or shoot up some coke have actual blood on their hands.

There are proper and better ways to address all of those categories of gun related deaths than what many systems are currently doing across the US. It just baffles me that we haven't done the obvious and logical choices already to really combat the root problems.

 

[TechBoyJK]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/daniel-zimmerman/don-natale/#more-195661

Vast majority of gun violence in this country from criminal homicides come from drug related crime. Has been this way in the US since prohibition times.

For gun related homicides you have these categories.

1) Drug related crime
2) Suicide
3) Armed robberies/burglaries gone bad
4) Justified self defense homicides
5) Crimes of passion
6) Serial killers
7) Mass murders/killing spree's looking to go out in a blaze of glory so to speak
8) Accidental shootings

That's about it. Those are about the order of which gun related deaths happen. The trick is to reducing gun related deaths is to look at each category and see what can be done about the underlying root cause. Because if you take away guns, ALL THOSE categories of deaths will not be reduced at all. The method of violence will just change from guns to other choices of dealing death.

As the writer of the article makes a joke about, his purchases of guns has not made any impact on criminal gun violence at all, but those anti-gun nuts that like to smoke an occasional blunt or shoot up some coke have actual blood on their hands.

There are proper and better ways to address all of those categories of gun related deaths than what many systems are currently doing across the US. It just baffles me that we haven't done the obvious and logical choices already to really combat the root problems.

you don't get blood on your hands from smoking blunts so that's a stupid argument.

 

[irishScott]

you don't get blood on your hands from smoking blunts so that's a stupid argument.

So you're also alright with buying conflict diamonds?

If you grow your own weed or get it direct from a legit source then fine, but if you buy from an illegitimate "dealer" it likely either got someone shot or is going to help get someone shot.

 

[momeNt]

you don't get blood on your hands from smoking blunts so that's a stupid argument.

Cut into that argument like a hot knife through butter.

/thread

 

[openwheel]

I am pro gun myself, but I find this article contains weak arguments.

I swear, there is a sense or desperation and urgency out there among us gun owners, but we are shooting ourselves in the foot with this kind of arguments. The gun talk will die down eventually, and we will all be happy gun owners again. However, we need to stop justifying our freedom with ridiculous excuses.

No one is taking away my guns and I am not worried about it.

 

[HumblePie]

As for how to reduce gun related deaths for each category in a logical and sensible manner?

1) Legalize certain drugs. Removing prohibition removed all of the alcohol related gangs and their crimes from the streets. The two main ones are marijuana and cocaine. Regulate their sales, and add stringent laws for being out in public or public use under their influence. Setup clinics where people can pay to use what they want so long as they check in overnight and aren't free to leave until the drug is out of their system. Kind of like a hookah bar, but for harder stuff. People can use and do so safely and under better supervision.

2) Suicides are responses to 3 main issues. Mental health problems, school bullying isolation in teenagers, and economic downturns in adult lives. Each requires different steps to help alleviate. Start with better mental health provisions in health care reform and revisions. Start early from elementary kids on up in helping to identify those with depression and anxiety issues. Have all kids go through several courses in school designed to teach coping skills and help identify problems in those around them. Become more stringent against bullies in schools. Help schools to help parents in raising kids by offering parenting classes. Go through government welfare and entitlement to help out those who recently suffered a catastrophic economic collapse. Identify those looking to get back on their feet and those looking for a handout better. The welfare and entitlement programs all need a massive overhaul and reform.

3) More CHL's. More trained civilians that own guns deters crimes against innocents.

4) Reducing most of the homicides in the other categories would naturally reduce deaths in this category as well

5) Not much you can do here except with the mental health to our health care overhaul. Right now mental health is rarely covered under insurance programs and is not treated as seriously by the overall health profession. As better mental health care and access is given to everyone, crimes of passion as well as suicides, and other possible related homicide categories go down.

6) Not much you can do about these unfortunately. True monsters and psychopaths will always exist.

7) Reduce media coverage on these events. These people go out in a blaze of glory because they want and crave attention and infamy. We need laws to stop it. I should have to hear Adam Lanza's name every time I turn into the news every day for the past month. You gave him what he wanted and the next idiot that wants to follow suit see's how much it worked for Adam Lanza. Or Holmes. Or anyone else that commits these heinous crimes for attention. Just like these boards, stop feeding the trolls.

8) Gun safety courses for our kids. Add it to school curriculum. It will do many things which include reduce accidental gun firing, promote gun safety, and reduce the amount of fear mongering imposed on people by the media over guns.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

For gun related homicides you have these categories.

2) Suicide

Ummm... what?

 

[sigurros81]

Is this article written by someone who posts on this board, because the writing is atrocious, not to mention the logical path he uses to arrive at his points.

 

[HumblePie]

you don't get blood on your hands from smoking blunts so that's a stupid argument.

By smoking blunts, you are adding money into a criminal activity that eventually goes back to some form of organized crime. That organized crime eventually kills for turf or goods or money. By using illegal substances, you are in fact promoting the killings of other people. Thus blood is on your hands if you use illegal substances you purchased from someone else.

Now if you grow your own shit or make it on the side. Use it personally and don't sell it... then no.

 

[momeNt]

Ummm... what?

He meant death... but if you are going to nitpick, you should also mention that justified killings such as self-defense are not homicides either, same goes for accidents.

 

[HumblePie]

Ummm... what?

The FBI counts suicides as homicides.

Homicide is the act of killing a human. Regardless of who does the killing and who ends up dead. The reason or motive for the killing doesn't change the fact that if a human ends up dead by the acts of a human, then it is a homicide. Self defense is legal homicide for example. Suicide is a type of homicide because a human is still killing a human. Just happens to be the person is killing themselves.

 

[sigurros81]

By smoking blunts, you are adding money into a criminal activity that eventually goes back to some form of organized crime. That organized crime eventually kills for turf or goods or money. By using illegal substances, you are in fact promoting the killings of other people. Thus blood is on your hands if you use illegal substances you purchased from someone else.

Now if you grow your own shit or make it on the side. Use it personally and don't sell it... then no.

The transitive property of that argument holds as much water as blaming the government for homicide rates because they outlaw these drugs. If these drugs weren't illegal, we would have less homicides, so our lawmakers are just as responsible as the blunt smoker

 

[Atomic Playboy]

The FBI counts suicides as homicides.

Do they actually? Because every definition I've seen says that homicide is the act of killing another human being, not one's self. It would be somewhat surprising if the FBI decided to use their own definition for an established legal term like homicide.

 

[momeNt]

The FBI counts suicides as homicides.

What about self-defense!

 

[sigurros81]

Do they actually? Because every definition I've seen says that homicide is the act of killing another human being, not one's self. It would be somewhat surprising if the FBI decided to use their own definition for an established legal term like homicide.

I think humblepie is sourcing material straight from his ass again.

 

[HumblePie]

I think humblepie is sourcing material straight from his ass again.

Just read this article detailing how FBI gun related death statistics are broken down. I never source anything from my ass except actual steamers.

http://www.arlingtonvoice.com/story/opinion/12/21/2012/understanding-numbers-gun-related-deaths

Basically 30K gun related homicides in 2010. Only of which 12Kish are murders. The other 18K are suicides, self defense shootings, accidental discharges, and innocent bystanders slain from police actions.

 

[sigurros81]

Just read this article detailing how FBI gun related death statistics are broken down. I never source anything from my ass except actual steamers.

http://www.arlingtonvoice.com/story/opinion/12/21/2012/understanding-numbers-gun-related-deaths

Basically 30K gun related homicides in 2010. Only of which 12Kish are murders. The other 18K are suicides, self defense shootings, accidental discharges, and innocent bystanders slain from police actions.

You suck at being sneaky. Did you even read the article? "Gun-related deaths" vs. "Homicides". Know the difference? Suicide does not equal homicide. Know your terminology?

One failed argument after another, what else you got?

 

[HumblePie]

You suck at being sneaky. Did you even read the article? "Gun-related deaths" vs. "Homicides". Know the difference? Suicide does not equal homicide. Know your terminology?

I KNOW the difference. I was pointing out that many count suicides AS homicides. I was not saying they were equal. Just that is how the data has been collected.

 

[sigurros81]

I KNOW the difference. I was pointing out that many count suicides AS homicides. I was not saying they were equal. Just that is how the data has been collected.

No one is doing that except for you. The article you linked even use the terms "gun-related deaths", whereas you try and be sneaky and reword it in your post as "gun-related homicides". So sup dawg?

 

[momeNt]

No one is doing that except for you. The article you linked even use the terms "gun-related deaths", whereas you try and be sneaky and reword it in your post as "gun-related homicides". So sup dawg?

Well I thought this would carry on for 2-3 posts, but it has gotten ridiculous and there is actually a useful discussion to be had here if you'd stop arguing semantics with him.

 

[sigurros81]

Well I thought this would carry on for 2-3 posts, but it has gotten ridiculous and there is actually a useful discussion to be had here if you'd stop arguing semantics with him.

The discussion would be very useful if people actually get their shit straight instead of bullshitting, no?

 

[HumblePie]

The discussion would be very useful if people actually get their shit straight instead of bullshitting, no?

No, because you are trying to use a logical fallacy for argument by argument of semantics. Many for gun control have argued using numbers of gun related violence or gun related homicides that INCLUDES suicide data numbers. The fact is, it doesn't matter for the OP I was posting. I was pointing out that gun related deaths, an who cares the fucking semantics of what you want to call it, and their true root causes. I was also posted real logical and critical thinking solutions that go to address the root causes.

But you wanted to sideline the argument with fucking semantics and logic fallacies.

 

[sigurros81]

No, because you are trying to use a logical fallacy for argument by argument of semantics. Many for gun control have argued using numbers of gun related violence or gun related homicides that INCLUDES suicide data numbers. The fact is, it doesn't matter for the OP I was posting. I was pointing out that gun related deaths, an who cares the fucking semantics of what you want to call it, and their true root causes. I was also posted real logical and critical thinking solutions that go to address the root causes.

But you wanted to sideline the argument with fucking semantics and logic fallacies.

No one is arguing semantics. I'm just calling you out on your bullshit, because let's be honest, there isn't going to be any 'critical thinking solutions', or 'logical' debate if you decide to post numbers and data that you conveniently twist around just to support your argument. It's pretty much what FOX News does, and they get ridiculed on a daily basis for it.

Again, you make the same mistake in your 'logical' debate by saying that people who smoke illegal drugs are somehow responsible for the drug related violence as well, and I called you out on that BS. Instead of getting butt-hurt and backpedaling on what you said in earlier posts, try and post some intelligent shit to counter my points.

And for the record, I do agree with what you have to say, it's just that you don't pose a very strong argument for it. No one in their right mind would think that stricter gun laws is going to curb the violence in this country.

 

[momeNt]

No one is arguing semantics. I'm just calling you out on your bullshit, because let's be honest, there isn't going to be any 'critical thinking solutions', or 'logical' debate if you decide to post numbers and data that you conveniently twist around just to support your argument. It's pretty much what FOX News does, and they get ridiculed on a daily basis for it.

Again, you make the same mistake in your 'logical' debate by saying that people who smoke illegal drugs are somehow responsible for the drug related violence as well, and I called you out on that BS. Instead of getting butt-hurt and backpedaling on what you said in earlier posts, try and post some intelligent shit to counter my points.

They are indirectly responsible, as is government. Government drives it to a black market, and buyers help the black market thrive. It isn't BS. I don't believe he said they are entirely to blame.

 

[sigurros81]

They are indirectly responsible, as is government. Government drives it to a black market, and buyers help the black market thrive. It isn't BS. I don't believe he said they are entirely to blame.

With that sort of argument, you can go down the slippery-slope of saying that eating toast and jelly in the morning is also somehow make you responsible for the drug violence in this country as well, just start playing the 7-degree game. If this argument would actually hold any credibility, lawyers in this country would have a field day incriminating and suing everyone else because everyone is somehow responsible for the misfortunes of the world.