President's speech on ISIL- Full text here. Analysis welcome!

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manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
8
0
Chickenhawk-726717_zpscadb06df.jpg

No doubt that Obama is very good at giving speeches.

No doubt either that he is not very good at executing strategies that facilitate what he advocates.

Until the Politicians, Obama, Biden, Bush, Cheney, et. al. think that the military solution is important enough to send their children to do the fighting, I'll not support it.

For example, when Biden and Cheney had their opportunity to serve, each of them obtained five deferments and each ultimately succeeded in avoiding military service.

Chicken Hawk is the term we used to describe those that advocate other people fighting their wars. That is, Chicken Hawk US politicians that think that combat is a necessary place for other people's children but not for them or their children.

Until the chicken hawks stop sending other people, and other peoples children, to be cannon fodder, I'll keep believing that war is a racket.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army 69-71

Biden sent his son didnt he?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
The only advantages I can see of not backing Assad (other than he's killed masses of his own people and we've already stated he needs to be removed...) is Assad's ties to Russia and Iran.

By hanging a sword out there over Assad, it gives some measure of threat against Putin and Iran. If Putin were to push further into Ukraine could we find a convenient excuse to topple Assad and put in our puppet? You take our chess piece off the board and we take yours.

I would think this message would get to Putin.

I don't see any advantage at this point backing Assad.

Assad has a professional military actively fighting ISIS right now, not in a pipe dream, like this Syrian opposition we are going to arm.
Hence the need to make decision. Do you want to play Risk with Russia, or do you want to get real and defeat ISIS?
Because even an obese American butt is not big enough to sit on both of these chairs at once.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,163
136
I just enjoy watching the McCain melt down.
Obviously, he's still pissed that he lost.
He should get out of the discussion and go back to counting the number of his homes.
Which he couldn't remember the number of when asked.
What a silly old man....
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Re: The speech:

I'll give him some style points. He didn't stutter etc.

As to the content; this was a speech made necessary for his own political purposes by his recent blunder in admitting he had no strategy for ISIS. So, he had to tell us his strategy.

I don't find much strategy in his strategy speech. But of course one shouldn't be explaining their strategy in public. Informing one's enemies of their strategy is stupid for obvious reasons.

It was notably 'light' on content in other areas as well. E.g., who is in this so-called "broad coalition" and what will be their roles? (From what I've heard there are less than 10 countries currently in this so-called broad coalition and their roles are unknown. I.e., will they fight or just send money and stand on the sidelines with pom-poms?)

The strategy as we know it is to bomb ISIS from the air with no 'boots on the ground. Never mind that we do have boots on the ground. Obama seems the only person who thinks this will be successful. Many others believe troops are necessary.

Overall, I think this is 'too little, too late'. Air support etc before ISIS took control of large portions of Iraq may have been much effective. A standard case of 'a stitch in time saves 9' etc. Too late now.

More along the lines of 'too late' is arming the Syrian rebels. At the outset it seemed murky as best as to who should have been armed. And it looks much more questionable now. It's not hard not imagine that somewhere down the road we'll be fighting against our own weaponry.

Lately I'm thinking we (some sort of coalition) should kill or drive ISIS out of Iraq and right back into Syria and then seal it off containing the problem to Syria. They can kill each other there. But this requires ground troops so it won't happen while Obama is in office unless his hand is forced (and it may be before his term is up).

Fern
 

shabby

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,782
45
91
Great, more "terrorists" america needs to exterminate. I wonder when another country will see america as the terrorist and send planes and ships to attack it from all directions, wouldn't that be something?
When one country is in a constant war with others, who really are the terrorists?
 
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unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
Biden sent his son didnt he?


You are correct. Biden's oldest son served as a JAG officer with a Delaware National Guard Unit which did a 10 month tour in Iraq. Thanks for the correction.

Uno
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
music.png

Lyndon Johnson told the nation
Have no fear of escalation...

Obama should have insisted on Congressional buy-in prior to action. His failure to do so leaves him on questionable constitutional grounds and also lets Congress throw rocks without consequence.
Nothing he is doing is questionable on constitutional grounds.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Chickenhawk-726717_zpscadb06df.jpg

No doubt that Obama is very good at giving speeches.

No doubt either that he is not very good at executing strategies that facilitate what he advocates.

Until the Politicians, Obama, Biden, Bush, Cheney, et. al. think that the military solution is important enough to send their children to do the fighting, I'll not support it.

For example, when Biden and Cheney had their opportunity to serve, each of them obtained five deferments and each ultimately succeeded in avoiding military service.

Chicken Hawk is the term we used to describe those that advocate other people fighting their wars. That is, Chicken Hawk US politicians that think that combat is a necessary place for other people's children but not for them or their children.

Until the chicken hawks stop sending other people, and other peoples children, to be cannon fodder, I'll keep believing that war is a racket.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army 69-71

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2nuOneeQ5M
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,481
35,160
136
Nothing he is doing is questionable on constitutional grounds.
Article I, Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power...
To declare War...
Article II lists the powers of the President. There is nothing there allowing a President to go to war without the direction of Congress.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
I abandoned going over the remainder of the speech as I just don't have enough time, but Obama is disturbingly like Bush in many ways.

No he's not, Bush wanted to be a War President.

I've even seen somewhere in the last few days he was actually bragging about having been a War President.

That whole pack of Mofos spent all that time shoving money in their pockets non stop more or less.

How Dubya got elected a second time still defines logic to me.

NM, it was that cash thing.

We're still paying for that mess, and will be awhile.

Obama is being forced to engage at this time, due to circumstances.

Unless he want's to look like Liberterian Isolationist type, which in all honesty would not work anyways.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,610
33,330
136
Why not? It seems that's something he knows about. The latter doesn't seem interested in anyone elses opinions so maybe he'll listen to Putin.
That was simply an example of hypocrisy. From this post is seems like you do not want Obama to go after ISIL? What happened to this line of thinking?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
That was simply an example of hypocrisy. From this post is seems like you do not want Obama to go after ISIL? What happened to this line of thinking?

You need to see
Done with careful consideration

I have stated that an international consensus on a plan of action is important, or failing that a clear understanding of what we plan in advance. Instead we have another administration dictating a course and announcing a coalition. Other nations may support our actions, but this is a dictation of terms, not a collaborative effort. GWB played that card and I didn't like it then and I think the same now.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,610
33,330
136
You need to see

I have stated that an international consensus on a plan of action is important, or failing that a clear understanding of what we plan in advance. Instead we have another administration dictating a course and announcing a coalition. Other nations may support our actions, but this is a dictation of terms, not a collaborative effort. GWB played that card and I didn't like it then and I think the same now.
Sometimes I think you just like to complain about every single thing Obama does, no matter what it is.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,312
10,626
136
You think its possible their neighbors are willing to let ISIS live, that they don't feel pressed into attacking them except by United States edict?

If the only two actors involved who'd use ground troops are Syria and Iraq... we've got some problems with our plan.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
You think its possible their neighbors are willing to let ISIS live, that they don't feel pressed into attacking them except by United States edict?

If the only two actors involved who'd use ground troops are Syria and Iraq... we've got some problems with our plan.

ISIS is Sunni. I doubt Sunni run countries want to be seen fighting other Sunni's.

Fern
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Sometimes I think you just like to complain about every single thing Obama does, no matter what it is.

This is no children's game and I make no apologies to you any more than I did to your counterparts with Bush and Iraq, who felt much the same as you do now. That debacle came about in no small part because people just accepted things. Of course that's your right to do so, but that's all.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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ISIS is Sunni. I doubt Sunni run countries want to be seen fighting other Sunni's.

Fern

Roughly 90% of Iraqi Kurds are Sunni and they seem to have no problems fighting other Sunnis like ISIS.

Plus there is this:

"A day after Obama told the US public that the latest war in the skies above Iraq will soon cross the border into Syria, he received a major diplomatic boost from the leaders of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and the Gulf Cooperation Council - an alliance of the Sunni Arab Gulf nations, including Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates – who pledged to “stand united” against “the so-called Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/obama-isis-coalition-middle-east-countries
 
Apr 20, 2008
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My fellow Americans, tonight I want to speak to you about what the United States will do with our friends and allies to degrade and ultimately destroy the terrorist group known as ISIL.

As Commander-in-Chief, my highest priority is the security of the American people. Over the last several years, we have consistently taken the fight to terrorists who threaten our country. We took out Osama bin Laden and much of al Qaeda’s leadership in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We’ve targeted al Qaeda’s affiliate in Yemen, and recently eliminated the top commander of its affiliate in Somalia. We’ve done so while bringing more than 140,000 American troops home from Iraq, and drawing down our forces in Afghanistan, where our combat mission will end later this year. Thanks to our military and counterterrorism professionals, America is safer.

Still, we continue to face a terrorist threat. We can’t erase every trace of evil from the world, and small groups of killers have the capacity to do great harm. That was the case before 9/11, and that remains true today. And that’s why we must remain vigilant as threats emerge. At this moment, the greatest threats come from the Middle East and North Africa, where radical groups exploit grievances for their own gain. And one of those groups is ISIL -- which calls itself the “Islamic State.”

Now let’s make two things clear: ISIL is not “Islamic.” No religion condones the killing of innocents. And the vast majority of ISIL’s victims have been Muslim. And ISIL is certainly not a state. It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government, nor by the people it subjugates. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way.

In a region that has known so much bloodshed, these terrorists are unique in their brutality. They execute captured prisoners. They kill children. They enslave, rape, and force women into marriage. They threatened a religious minority with genocide. And in acts of barbarism, they took the lives of two American journalists -- Jim Foley and Steven Sotloff.

So ISIL poses a threat to the people of Iraq and Syria, and the broader Middle East -- including American citizens, personnel and facilities. If left unchecked, these terrorists could pose a growing threat beyond that region, including to the United States. While we have not yet detected specific plotting against our homeland, ISIL leaders have threatened America and our allies. Our Intelligence Community believes that thousands of foreigners -– including Europeans and some Americans –- have joined them in Syria and Iraq. Trained and battle-hardened, these fighters could try to return to their home countries and carry out deadly attacks.

I know many Americans are concerned about these threats. Tonight, I want you to know that the United States of America is meeting them with strength and resolve. Last month, I ordered our military to take targeted action against ISIL to stop its advances. Since then, we’ve conducted more than 150 successful airstrikes in Iraq. These strikes have protected American personnel and facilities, killed ISIL fighters, destroyed weapons, and given space for Iraqi and Kurdish forces to reclaim key territory. These strikes have also helped save the lives of thousands of innocent men, women and children.

But this is not our fight alone. American power can make a decisive difference, but we cannot do for Iraqis what they must do for themselves, nor can we take the place of Arab partners in securing their region. And that’s why I’ve insisted that additional U.S. action depended upon Iraqis forming an inclusive government, which they have now done in recent days. So tonight, with a new Iraqi government in place, and following consultations with allies abroad and Congress at home, I can announce that America will lead a broad coalition to roll back this terrorist threat.

Our objective is clear: We will degrade, and ultimately destroy, ISIL through a comprehensive and sustained counterterrorism strategy.

First, we will conduct a systematic campaign of airstrikes against these terrorists. Working with the Iraqi government, we will expand our efforts beyond protecting our own people and humanitarian missions, so that we’re hitting ISIL targets as Iraqi forces go on offense. Moreover, I have made it clear that we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq. This is a core principle of my presidency: If you threaten America, you will find no safe haven.

Second, we will increase our support to forces fighting these terrorists on the ground. In June, I deployed several hundred American servicemembers to Iraq to assess how we can best support Iraqi security forces. Now that those teams have completed their work –- and Iraq has formed a government –- we will send an additional 475 servicemembers to Iraq. As I have said before, these American forces will not have a combat mission –- we will not get dragged into another ground war in Iraq. But they are needed to support Iraqi and Kurdish forces with training, intelligence and equipment. We’ll also support Iraq’s efforts to stand up National Guard Units to help Sunni communities secure their own freedom from ISIL’s control.

Across the border, in Syria, we have ramped up our military assistance to the Syrian opposition. Tonight, I call on Congress again to give us additional authorities and resources to train and equip these fighters. In the fight against ISIL, we cannot rely on an Assad regime that terrorizes its own people -- a regime that will never regain the legitimacy it has lost. Instead, we must strengthen the opposition as the best counterweight to extremists like ISIL, while pursuing the political solution necessary to solve Syria’s crisis once and for all.

Third, we will continue to draw on our substantial counterterrorism capabilities to prevent ISIL attacks. Working with our partners, we will redouble our efforts to cut off its funding; improve our intelligence; strengthen our defenses; counter its warped ideology; and stem the flow of foreign fighters into and out of the Middle East. And in two weeks, I will chair a meeting of the U.N. Security Council to further mobilize the international community around this effort.

Fourth, we will continue to provide humanitarian assistance to innocent civilians who have been displaced by this terrorist organization. This includes Sunni and Shia Muslims who are at grave risk, as well as tens of thousands of Christians and other religious minorities. We cannot allow these communities to be driven from their ancient homelands.

So this is our strategy. And in each of these four parts of our strategy, America will be joined by a broad coalition of partners. Already, allies are flying planes with us over Iraq; sending arms and assistance to Iraqi security forces and the Syrian opposition; sharing intelligence; and providing billions of dollars in humanitarian aid. Secretary Kerry was in Iraq today meeting with the new government and supporting their efforts to promote unity. And in the coming days he will travel across the Middle East and Europe to enlist more partners in this fight, especially Arab nations who can help mobilize Sunni communities in Iraq and Syria, to drive these terrorists from their lands. This is American leadership at its best: We stand with people who fight for their own freedom, and we rally other nations on behalf of our common security and common humanity.

My administration has also secured bipartisan support for this approach here at home. I have the authority to address the threat from ISIL, but I believe we are strongest as a nation when the President and Congress work together. So I welcome congressional support for this effort in order to show the world that Americans are united in confronting this danger.

Now, it will take time to eradicate a cancer like ISIL. And any time we take military action, there are risks involved –- especially to the servicemen and women who carry out these missions. But I want the American people to understand how this effort will be different from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It will not involve American combat troops fighting on foreign soil. This counterterrorism campaign will be waged through a steady, relentless effort to take out ISIL wherever they exist, using our air power and our support for partner forces on the ground. This strategy of taking out terrorists who threaten us, while supporting partners on the front lines, is one that we have successfully pursued in Yemen and Somalia for years. And it is consistent with the approach I outlined earlier this year: to use force against anyone who threatens America’s core interests, but to mobilize partners wherever possible to address broader challenges to international order.

My fellow Americans, we live in a time of great change. Tomorrow marks 13 years since our country was attacked. Next week marks six years since our economy suffered its worst setback since the Great Depression. Yet despite these shocks, through the pain we have felt and the grueling work required to bounce back, America is better positioned today to seize the future than any other nation on Earth.

Our technology companies and universities are unmatched. Our manufacturing and auto industries are thriving. Energy independence is closer than it’s been in decades. For all the work that remains, our businesses are in the longest uninterrupted stretch of job creation in our history. Despite all the divisions and discord within our democracy, I see the grit and determination and common goodness of the American people every single day –- and that makes me more confident than ever about our country’s future.

Abroad, American leadership is the one constant in an uncertain world. It is America that has the capacity and the will to mobilize the world against terrorists. It is America that has rallied the world against Russian aggression, and in support of the Ukrainian peoples’ right to determine their own destiny. It is America –- our scientists, our doctors, our know-how –- that can help contain and cure the outbreak of Ebola. It is America that helped remove and destroy Syria’s declared chemical weapons so that they can’t pose a threat to the Syrian people or the world again. And it is America that is helping Muslim communities around the world not just in the fight against terrorism, but in the fight for opportunity, and tolerance, and a more hopeful future.

America, our endless blessings bestow an enduring burden. But as Americans, we welcome our responsibility to lead. From Europe to Asia, from the far reaches of Africa to war-torn capitals of the Middle East, we stand for freedom, for justice, for dignity. These are values that have guided our nation since its founding.

Tonight, I ask for your support in carrying that leadership forward. I do so as a Commander-in-Chief who could not be prouder of our men and women in uniform –- pilots who bravely fly in the face of danger above the Middle East, and servicemembers who support our partners on the ground.

When we helped prevent the massacre of civilians trapped on a distant mountain, here’s what one of them said: “We owe our American friends our lives. Our children will always remember that there was someone who felt our struggle and made a long journey to protect innocent people.”

That is the difference we make in the world. And our own safety, our own security, depends upon our willingness to do what it takes to defend this nation and uphold the values that we stand for –- timeless ideals that will endure long after those who offer only hate and destruction have been vanquished from the Earth.

May God bless our troops, and may God bless the United States of America.

i8SpBem.jpg
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140912/syria-rebels-non-aggression-pact-near-damascus
Syrian rebels and jihadists from the Islamic State have agreed a non-aggression pact for the first time in a suburb of the capital Damascus, a monitoring group said on Friday.
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said the ceasefire deal was agreed between IS and moderate and Islamist rebels in Hajar al-Aswad, south of the capital.
Under the deal, "the two parties will respect a truce until a final solution is found and they promise not to attack each other because they consider the principal enemy to be the Nussayri regime."
Nussayri is a pejorative term for the Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shiite Islam to which President Bashar al-Assad belongs.
Usually I am not proven right this quickly.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Obama should have insisted on Congressional buy-in prior to action. His failure to do so leaves him on questionable constitutional grounds and also lets Congress throw rocks without consequence.

We all know obama does not play well with others.

He would rather do nothing than talk to congress.


As for the speech, blah, blah and more blah.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126

The Neoconservative assumption has always been that we'll be seen as the good guys or at least not the worst option. Obama seems to be a bird of a feather in this regard. Once weapons are handed out they will be used against whoever is deemed the greatest threat, which does not automatically mean as we intend. These groups do not work for us. They never have and never will.