Presidential Double-Talk

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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To those who believe that Barack Obama is a different kind of politician?more honest, more courageous, more upfront?please don't examine his administration's recent budget. If you do, you may sadly conclude that he resembles presidents stretching back to John F. Kennedy in one crucial respect. He won't tax voters for all the government services they want. That's the main reason we've run budget deficits in 43 of the past 48 years.

Barack Obama is a great pretender. He constantly says he's doing things that he isn't, and he relies on his powerful rhetoric to obscure the difference. He has made "responsibility" a personal theme, and the budget's cover line is "A New Era of Responsibility." He claims that the budget begins "making the tough choices necessary to restore fiscal discipline." It doesn't.

Let's recognize that, with today's depressed economy, big deficits are unavoidable for some years. Let's also assume that Obama wins reelection. By his last year, 2016, the economy will have presumably long recovered. What, then, does his final budget look like? Well, it runs a $637 billion deficit, equal to 3.2 percent of the economy (gross domestic product), projects Obama's Office of Management and Budget. Just for the record, that would roughly match Ronald Reagan's last deficit, 3.1 percent of GDP in 1988, so fiercely criticized by Democrats.


As a society, we should be willing to pay in taxes what it costs government to provide desired services. If benefits don't seem equal to burdens, then the spending isn't worth having (granting exceptions for deficits in wartime and economic slumps). If Obama were "responsible," he would be leading a candid conversation about government's size and role. Who deserves support and why? How big can government grow before higher taxes and deficits harm long-term economic growth? Although Obama claims to be doing this, he hasn't confronted entitlement psychology?the belief that government benefits once conferred should never be revoked?and asked whether some significant spending no longer serves any "public interest."

Is it in the public interest for the well-off elderly (say, a couple with $125,000 of income) to be subsidized, through Social Security and Medicare, by poorer young and middle-aged workers? Are any farm subsidies justified when farming seems no more insecure than countless other sectors (say, the news media) and subsidies aren't essential for food production? We wouldn't starve without agricultural subsidies.

Given the aging of American society, government faces huge pressures to expand?and intense conflicts between spending on the elderly and spending on everything else. But even before the full force of the baby boom hits (in 2016, only about a quarter of baby boomers will have reached 65), Obama's government will have grown. In 2016, federal spending is projected to be 22.4 percent of GDP, up from 21 percent in 2008; federal taxes, 19.2 percent of GDP, up from 17.7 percent.

It would also be "responsible" for Obama to acknowledge the big gamble in his budget. Defense?a.k.a. national security?has long been government's first job. In Obama's budget, defense spending drops from 20 percent of the total in 2008 to 14 percent in 2016, the smallest share since the 1930s. The decline, reflecting large savings from an Iraq troop drawdown, presumes a much safer world. If the world doesn't cooperate, Obama's deficits would grow.

The gap between Obama rhetoric and Obama reality is not confined to the budget. Nor are the consequences. Since the start of 2009, the stock market has declined 23.68 percent (through March 6), a paper loss of $2.6 trillion, says Wilshire Associates. The Wall Street Journal's editorial page attributes all the decline to Obama's policies. That's unfair; the economy's continuing deterioration explains much of the fall. Still, Obama isn't blameless.

Confidence (too little) and uncertainty (too much) are at the core of this crisis. All of Obama's double-talk threatens to reduce the first and raise the second. Investors and traders have surely noticed the discrepancies between Obama's words and actions.

Obama says he's focused singlemindedly on reviving the economy, but he's also using the crisis as a vehicle to advance an ambitious long-term agenda to reengineer the U.S. economy. The two sometimes collide. The $787 billion "stimulus" is weaker than necessary, because almost $200 billion of the impact occurs after 2010. Many of these extended projects (high-speed rail, computerized medical records) can't be accomplished quickly. When Congress debates Obama's sweeping health-care and energy proposals, industries, regions and governmental philosophies will clash. Will this improve confidence? Reduce uncertainty?

A prudent president would have made a "tough choice"? concentrated on the economy, deferred his more contentious agenda. Similarly, Obama claims to seek bipartisanship but, in reality, doesn't. His bipartisanship consists of sprinkling his cabinet with token Republicans and inviting some Republican members of Congress to the White House to watch the Super Bowl. It does not consist of fashioning proposals that would attract bipartisan support on their merits. Instead, he clings to dubious, partisan policies (mortgage cramdown, union checkoff) that arouse fierce opposition.

It is Obama's conceit?perhaps his cockiness?that he can ignore these blatant inconsistencies. Like many smart people, he believes he can talk his way around any problem. Perhaps he can. In this, he has an ally in much of the mainstream media, which seem so enthralled with him that they can't recognize glaring contradictions. During the campaign, Obama claimed he would change Washington's petty partisanship; he also advocated a highly partisan agenda. Both claims could not be true. The media barely noticed; the same obliviousness persists. But Obama still runs a risk: that his overworked rhetoric loses its power and boomerangs on him.

Pretty much sums up my feeling about his new administration. I voted against Obama. I had hoped that he would succeed and implement policies that would help the economy. I don't believe that anymore.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

What's to say? The simple minded rightwingers keep chirping the mantra "Obama is the Messiah," attempt to assign a label to everyone who may have voted for him...

And as it's a op-ed, it's as informed as your other thread....
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

They won't skip it. They'll just bring up Bush's massive failures.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

What's to say? The simple minded rightwingers keep chirping the mantra "Obama is the Messiah," attempt to assign a label to everyone who may have voted for him...

And as it's a op-ed, it's as informed as your other thread....

I have read a few articles from Samuelson throughout the election and I think he makes very good points and is non-partisan. I do get carried away with the Obama bashing but I seriously think that any rational person (partisan hacks included) need to reexamine Obama, his administration and his policies.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

What's to say? The simple minded rightwingers keep chirping the mantra "Obama is the Messiah," attempt to assign a label to everyone who may have voted for him...

And as it's a op-ed, it's as informed as your other thread....

I have read a few articles from Samuelson throughout the election and I think he makes very good points and is non-partisan. I do get carried away with the Obama bashing but I seriously think that any rational person (partisan hacks included) need to reexamine Obama, his administration and his policies.

Fair enough - and there's nothing wrong with that. Any Man or Woman that becomes President should have their feet held to the fire....

But for me, there's far too much supposition in many op-ed pieces, be it right or left leaning, to make them worthwhile......

After a point, it's just preaching to the choir...
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
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If the article even attempted to pretend that it wasn't so biased it might be a lot easier to take it seriously...

Did you even read the language? Its just bullshit talking points to rile up the same people who have been saying that crap the whole time.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Did you even read the language? Its just bullshit talking points to rile up the same people who have been saying that crap the whole time.

Which bullshit talking points are you referring to exactly?
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
wow

I can see why the right wants to keep calling Obama the messiah.

The high the pedestal the harder the fall.

The author even gets a jab in on the MSM!

he hit all the partisan talking points!! wtg!
 

Jiggz

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2001
4,329
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Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Did you even read the language? Its just bullshit talking points to rile up the same people who have been saying that crap the whole time.

Which bullshit talking points are you referring to exactly?

I believe he's referring to those words or sentences that are disparaging to BHO. Or any part of the Op-Ed he disagrees with.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: Jiggz
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Did you even read the language? Its just bullshit talking points to rile up the same people who have been saying that crap the whole time.

Which bullshit talking points are you referring to exactly?

I believe he's referring to those words or sentences that are disparaging to BHO. Or any part of the Op-Ed he disagrees with.

That's what I find most troublesome about fanatics on both sides. People are too blindsided by their political ideologies to rationally look at what's going on.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,555
1,982
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

Not this one. Nor do I disagree with Samuelson's points.

So here is my epilogue-comment.

A good part of our post-war (WWII) political history has involved a basic struggle over:

1) The need for and amount of public goods, and how to finance them.
2) Property rights, cast in the perspective of measurements such as the Gini index of wealth and income distribution, and who bears what share of responsibility for the taxation needed to fund those public goods.
3) A tug of war between guns and butter.

Conservatives, and especially right-wing conservatives, only want to spend money on the guns. They tend to vote their self-interest, with a much narrower view of a public interest. I know about this: In the early 1980s, I contributed several $200 checks to the Republican National Committee. So I know something of the conservative mindset.

But even before Roosevelt, we lived in a mixed economy. The mixed economy provided a larger share of butter -- domestic program spending -- after the New Deal. Today's neo-cons want to deny that the New Deal brought the country out of Depression, and they construct revisionist arguments to insist that it was only the war spending of the 1940s that turned things around. Facts provide a stark basis to prove the contrary.

While we raise the topic of historical revisionism, we should also examine Cold War defense expenditures -- the guns, so to speak -- in light of more recent document declassifications and agency histories published in their wake pertaining to the National Security Apparatus.

With the passage of the 1947 National Security Act, Congress faltered in funding the CIA for at least a couple years. Instead, Wall Street provided funding. They not only provided funding, but they provided staff. At the same time, while we imported the Third Reich's rocket scientists for use in the Cold War, we also imported their sociologists, social-psychologists, and some intelligence officers, and we set up an intelligence apparatus that included Reinhard Gehlen's network in Germany and Eastern Europe. CIA funded and pursued exotic research projects -- propaganda and psy-war alone involved spending at a rate of $1 billion annually between 1945 and 1960. Some will recall the Church Committee hearings of the 1970s, which revealed some 200+ "assassination" projects under CIA auspices.

Early on, CIA became the biggest money-laundering operation in the world, outstripping the Mafia and the various drug-cartels of more recent history. There was no accountability. A CIA station-chief could walk into a US Embassy, and walk out again with a suitcase containing millions of dollars, to be distributed to who knows who and winding up who knows where.

We -- that is Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA -- overthrew the Mossadegh regime in Iran in a well-organized covert operation. This was sold to the public as a thrust against "communism," because Mossadegh was a "socialist." In reality, the British wanted to continue extracting oil from Iran without paying for it, and insisted they wouldn't help us in Korea unless we helped them in Iran. Mossadegh would've accepted a reasonable share of oil-royalities, but Britain refused. Iranian oil-workers were being paid at the rate of $0.60 per day.

We don't remember this; citizens who lived under Shah Pahlavi and his secret-police known as SAVAK still do. And it has shaped all the history that still followed.

But what is the point here of this long digression of stale history?

The declassified archives here, and declassified KGB archives -- including 20 boxes of documents smuggled out of the Soviet Union before it fell by KGB's chief archivist of some 25 years -- show that the Soviet economy under Stalin, and as it continued under Khruschev, was a total shambles. Further, CIA "informed" the country and the administrations of Eisenhower and Kennedy that USSR had 1,000+ nuclear missles pointed at us, when in fact, there were only in excess of 80.

So a good part of the Cold War's defense spending -- about $6 Trillion -- was unnecessary. Especially, a lot of people made money off it. We might have spent half that much (lessening both the deficit and its accumulation in the national debt), still managing to spend the paltry $2 billion on Charlie Wilson's War in Afghanistan -- to throw another $6 or $10 billion at "the end game" to avoid "having the crazies gather in Kandahar."

This only addresses the "guns" aspect. Obviously, there would be those who pay individual and corporate taxes, who would think that it is still "their" money, to be taken back in lucrative defense contracts with certain "cost-plus" profit margins built in. They've been doing it for decades. Note that I've said nothing about Vietnam. Don't get me started.

Now let's look at the dynamic of public goods domestic spending. These are often "collective goods," because the private sector cannot adequately address the need for them. For instance, Eisenhower's national highway system; or the three-tiered system of funding public schools. "Private" investment in collective goods cannot occur, because there is no direct profitable opportunity in such investment. It must be undertaken as a collective -- and public -- initiative, even if, as in the example of public highways, it involves private contractors (who again -- seek to have profit-margins assured and built-in to their contracts. This is not the "operation of competitive (emphasis) free markets;" it is "rent-seeking.")

It is the tug-of-war between domestic spending needs and the "guns," coupled with the log-rolling and vote-trading in Congress, which has resulted in chronic deficits. And even if voters choose an increase in public spending for domestic programs, it would seem that demand is understated. It is understated because nobody wants to pay for something that is shared -- as much as they want to pay for their own ice-cream cone or I-pod, which they can enjoy -- first-hand, and exclusively. Add to this behavior the rent-seeking we've mentioned and the fact that public waste-fraud-abuse scandals are "public" knowledge, and we can see how bridges may crumble in Minnesota; schools will fail in New York, LA or Chicago; FBI intelligence failed to prevent 911; FEMA didn't respond adequately to Katrina.

Public goods for many only offer indirect benefits. So the public seems to associate domestic spending with "welfare" to the poor, who are told to be "self-reliant." In fact, there are agricultural subsidies to agri-business and other interests which are also "welfare." We keep the defense industry "on-line" -- to assure security against any threat. We subsidize Big-Oil.

Corporate bail-outs didn't just start with AIG, Bear-Stearns or GM and the auto industry. They began sometime before the big Lockheed bailout of the 1970s, following massive cost-overruns on the C5A transport. Lockheed was getting 95% of its business from the government, while Boeing and other tin-benders were getting less than 50%. So Lockheed was given $500 million to keep it afloat.

But there is something deeper than that, my friends.

We have built The Great Petroleum Culture. The Great Petroleum Culture assumes that the supply of oil would be plentiful in the short-run, still evidencing a total denial of our situation with the Arab oil-embargo of the early 1970s and the Iranian oil-embargo of 1979. And if you examine the Cold War more closely, a good part of it was fought over the "property-rights" of American companies in foreign countries -- for oil, copper and other strategic minerals. We installed a fascist dictatorship in Chile -- denying it to the public for some 20 years -- overthrowing THE oldest democracy in the hemisphere, at the behest of ITT and Kennicott Copper.

The bargain made to support the oil habit -- our "Jones" -- involved incorporating the oil industry into our national security apparatus. This, again, is NOT "perfectly competitive free-markets." You can count the number of oil companies -- all based in Texas and California -- on one hand. Such a number is an implicit cartel, and small enough such that there is not any incentive for any cartel member to defect if price-fixing really occurred. A perfectly competitive industry would have no profits -- zero profits -- when raw-material input prices rise. Yet Exxon-Mobil posted the highest profits in American history last year.

There is no prevailing substitute for oil, but a "substitute good" is necessary for competitive markets and independence. We drive "on" it; we drive "with it." We heat our houses with it and fire our electric generators with it. It supplies raw-materials for the pharmaceutical industry. The entire economy depends on oil. For this, we have placed our fate in the hands of certain majority stockholders holding certain ideological and delusional beliefs. They can front their own congressional and presidential candidates; they can buy elections; they can run elections; they can pave highways of influence directly into the Oval Office.

And this is what the American voter preferred in 2000 and 2004. And if you examine the presidential administrations -- in both terms and term-years -- between 1960 and the present, you find that about 55% of terms and 60+% of term years (or vice-versa) derived from political careers originating in Texas and California. Yet, Texas and California only had 19% of the population and congressional districts in 1960, and 19% of the population and congressional districts in 2000. Are we to assume that most of the talent in America can be found in Texas and California?

The national debt (accumulation of deficits yet-to-be-paid) was 29% of GDP when Carter left office. Reagan and Bush-41 spent it up to 51% of GDP through increased military spending, and fairly paltry increases in domestic spending through 1992. The debt remained at 51% in 2000, while implementation of the Gramm-Rudman Deficit Control Act resulted in almost closing the deficit by the time Bush took office.

What I call the criminality of the Bush administration consists of this: They committed us to in excess of a trillion-dollars in spending for Iraq, as they were implicitly given over to the advice of their largest financial supporters. Their biggest supporter was a board member of Halliburton, and owned his own family oil company. You may guess, or simply hunt the web for his name.

At the same time -- continuing with my "J'Accuse" indictment here -- they cut taxes, continued a long tradition beginning with Reagan of deregulating industries and markets where regulation and a watchful eye should have remained in place. Meanwhile, incomes have lagged far behind housing markets massively bubbled from easy credit and the unregulated sub-prime mortgage fiasco. All of this served to choke the "butter" side of public spending, as they engaged in the totally delusional practice of excluding military spending in Iraq from the annual budget.

In essence, they attempted to kill domestic program spending entirely in these taxation and spending policies, while contributing to the greatest wave of corporate and political corruption in American history.

Americans are lucky: if I had been elected President, I'd have had Randy Cunningham and Jack Abramoff shot in front of their kids on Christmas Day at high noon. I'd give Bush and Cheney about sixteen life terms in a maximum security prison.

Forbes Magazine, December, 2003, featured comment from Milton Friedman (conservative) and James Buchanan (populist, democrat) -- both Nobel Laureate economists. They said that Bush would "kill the goose that laid the golden egg" with his public spending choices. They were implicitly referring to the profligate war spending under the absurd tax reductions of the Bush administration.

Now, for the first time in decades, we have a President who is neither venal, delusional, a womanizer, nor an Idiot. I don't have heroes. I want to write the man a sympathy card, because nobody who isn't "on the take" or representing the sorts of special interests and mega-money I've mentioned -- would want that job.

In 1953, Hollywood released Brando's third movie -- an historical docudrama, with screenplay by John Steinbeck. Steinbeck wrote the following script-lines for it:

"This land is yours. But you'll have to protect it. It won't be yours for long if you don't protect it. And, if necessary, with your lives. And your children with their lives. Don't discount your enemies. They'll be back. But if your house is burned, build it again. If your corn is destroyed, replant. If your children die, bear more. And if they drive us out of the valleys we will live on the sides of the mountains. But we will live.

"You've always looked for leaders. For strong men without faults. There aren't any. There are only men like yourselves. They change. They desert. They die. There's no leader but yourselves."

This is all about perception. The American economy has become so complex, that any attempt to fix things appears as a distortion of simple justice, while the status-quo itself is a hypocritical affront to justice anyway. "Free Markets?" Don't kid yourselves. Get your heads out of the sand.

Meanwhile, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Those who remember the W.R. Grace commercial of the 1980s, featuring the "Deficit Trials: 2020," should accept responsibility for putting Obama's predecessor in office in the first place. California now has a 10.5% unemployment rate. The security of retired people is threatened. Schools are laying off teachers. People are gathering in droves at a tent-city in Sacramento -- a "Hooverville" -- having vacated their foreclosed homes to join the ranks of the homeless.

 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
link

To those who believe that Barack Obama is a different kind of politician?more honest, more courageous, more upfront?please don't examine his administration's recent budget. If you do, you may sadly conclude that he resembles presidents stretching back to John F. Kennedy in one crucial respect. He won't tax voters for all the government services they want. That's the main reason we've run budget deficits in 43 of the past 48 years.

Barack Obama is a great pretender. He constantly says he's doing things that he isn't, and he relies on his powerful rhetoric to obscure the difference. He has made "responsibility" a personal theme, and the budget's cover line is "A New Era of Responsibility." He claims that the budget begins "making the tough choices necessary to restore fiscal discipline." It doesn't.

Let's recognize that, with today's depressed economy, big deficits are unavoidable for some years. Let's also assume that Obama wins reelection. By his last year, 2016, the economy will have presumably long recovered. What, then, does his final budget look like? Well, it runs a $637 billion deficit, equal to 3.2 percent of the economy (gross domestic product), projects Obama's Office of Management and Budget. Just for the record, that would roughly match Ronald Reagan's last deficit, 3.1 percent of GDP in 1988, so fiercely criticized by Democrats.


As a society, we should be willing to pay in taxes what it costs government to provide desired services. If benefits don't seem equal to burdens, then the spending isn't worth having (granting exceptions for deficits in wartime and economic slumps). If Obama were "responsible," he would be leading a candid conversation about government's size and role. Who deserves support and why? How big can government grow before higher taxes and deficits harm long-term economic growth? Although Obama claims to be doing this, he hasn't confronted entitlement psychology?the belief that government benefits once conferred should never be revoked?and asked whether some significant spending no longer serves any "public interest."

Is it in the public interest for the well-off elderly (say, a couple with $125,000 of income) to be subsidized, through Social Security and Medicare, by poorer young and middle-aged workers? Are any farm subsidies justified when farming seems no more insecure than countless other sectors (say, the news media) and subsidies aren't essential for food production? We wouldn't starve without agricultural subsidies.

Given the aging of American society, government faces huge pressures to expand?and intense conflicts between spending on the elderly and spending on everything else. But even before the full force of the baby boom hits (in 2016, only about a quarter of baby boomers will have reached 65), Obama's government will have grown. In 2016, federal spending is projected to be 22.4 percent of GDP, up from 21 percent in 2008; federal taxes, 19.2 percent of GDP, up from 17.7 percent.

It would also be "responsible" for Obama to acknowledge the big gamble in his budget. Defense?a.k.a. national security?has long been government's first job. In Obama's budget, defense spending drops from 20 percent of the total in 2008 to 14 percent in 2016, the smallest share since the 1930s. The decline, reflecting large savings from an Iraq troop drawdown, presumes a much safer world. If the world doesn't cooperate, Obama's deficits would grow.

The gap between Obama rhetoric and Obama reality is not confined to the budget. Nor are the consequences. Since the start of 2009, the stock market has declined 23.68 percent (through March 6), a paper loss of $2.6 trillion, says Wilshire Associates. The Wall Street Journal's editorial page attributes all the decline to Obama's policies. That's unfair; the economy's continuing deterioration explains much of the fall. Still, Obama isn't blameless.

Confidence (too little) and uncertainty (too much) are at the core of this crisis. All of Obama's double-talk threatens to reduce the first and raise the second. Investors and traders have surely noticed the discrepancies between Obama's words and actions.

Obama says he's focused singlemindedly on reviving the economy, but he's also using the crisis as a vehicle to advance an ambitious long-term agenda to reengineer the U.S. economy. The two sometimes collide. The $787 billion "stimulus" is weaker than necessary, because almost $200 billion of the impact occurs after 2010. Many of these extended projects (high-speed rail, computerized medical records) can't be accomplished quickly. When Congress debates Obama's sweeping health-care and energy proposals, industries, regions and governmental philosophies will clash. Will this improve confidence? Reduce uncertainty?

A prudent president would have made a "tough choice"? concentrated on the economy, deferred his more contentious agenda. Similarly, Obama claims to seek bipartisanship but, in reality, doesn't. His bipartisanship consists of sprinkling his cabinet with token Republicans and inviting some Republican members of Congress to the White House to watch the Super Bowl. It does not consist of fashioning proposals that would attract bipartisan support on their merits. Instead, he clings to dubious, partisan policies (mortgage cramdown, union checkoff) that arouse fierce opposition.

It is Obama's conceit?perhaps his cockiness?that he can ignore these blatant inconsistencies. Like many smart people, he believes he can talk his way around any problem. Perhaps he can. In this, he has an ally in much of the mainstream media, which seem so enthralled with him that they can't recognize glaring contradictions. During the campaign, Obama claimed he would change Washington's petty partisanship; he also advocated a highly partisan agenda. Both claims could not be true. The media barely noticed; the same obliviousness persists. But Obama still runs a risk: that his overworked rhetoric loses its power and boomerangs on him.

Pretty much sums up my feeling about his new administration. I voted against Obama. I had hoped that he would succeed and implement policies that would help the economy. I don't believe that anymore.

Is this an example of the liberal media giving Mr Obama a free pass?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
BUSH LIED!!!!!!! TRILLIONS DIED!!!!!!!!

Trillions of dollars? or people? :p

I thought Harvey chimed in for a moment LOL.
Obama lied, Trillions more in debt? Just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Oh well, all those lefties concerned with Bush's modest (in comparison) war spending have all conveniently forgotten that now that we have the new breed of democrat, tax, borrow and spend like there's no tomorrow.

 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
BUSH LIED!!!!!!! TRILLIONS DIED!!!!!!!!

Trillions of dollars? or people? :p

I thought Harvey chimed in for a moment LOL.
Obama lied, Trillions more in debt? Just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Oh well, all those lefties concerned with Bush's modest (in comparison) war spending have all conveniently forgotten that now that we have the new breed of democrat, tax, borrow and spend like there's no tomorrow.

In comparison to Republican borrow and spend like the Second Coming will come tomorrow?
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

LOL - your're too funny. You read something like that, and agree, so you assume the logic is air-tight and no-one could argue against it.

Lets be real though... When Obama was campaigning, he was campaigning based on the way things were at the time. By the time he finally got into office, it was clear that the economy was in dire straights... Much worse than anyone had hoped. The plan had to change based on the current situation. We were headed for massive depression fast. Something had to be done. No-one likes spending all that money, but you have to make tough choices when you are the leader of the free world. Not going ahead with the stimulus packages and bailouts would mean mortgage markets totally freeze up and we go into a depression. You think 8% unemployment is bad, try 25% or more if he were to do nothing. Even Bush knew we needed several stimulus. He did the one, and if he werent leaving office he would have done more. it simply HAD to be done. Not that it was done perfectly, nothing the govt. does is, but something had to be done.

Now, you can wait and see the real effects of what Obama is doing, or you can bitch about anything and everything he does and what you think will happen. Its all just uneducated, biased supposition. You're clapping with one hand.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
The past 8 years we overspent our ways into financial ruin.

Obama recognizes this as the "Thelma and Louise" situation where we're heading for a cliff and must change direction... by overspending our way out of financial ruin !

He's brought us the CHANGE we can believe it! Obama is George W. Bush on steroids!
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: retrospooty
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I wonder how many of Obama's fans will skip this thread...

LOL - your're too funny. You read something like that, and agree, so you assume the logic is air-tight and no-one could argue against it.

Lets be real though... When Obama was campaigning, he was campaigning based on the way things were at the time. By the time he finally got into office, it was clear that the economy was in dire straights... Much worse than anyone had hoped. The plan had to change based on the current situation. We were headed for massive depression fast. Something had to be done. No-one likes spending all that money, but you have to make tough choices when you are the leader of the free world. Not going ahead with the stimulus packages and bailouts would mean mortgage markets totally freeze up and we go into a depression. You think 8% unemployment is bad, try 25% or more if he were to do nothing. Even Bush knew we needed several stimulus. He did the one, and if he werent leaving office he would have done more. it simply HAD to be done. Not that it was done perfectly, nothing the govt. does is, but something had to be done.

Now, you can wait and see the real effects of what Obama is doing, or you can bitch about anything and everything he does and what you think will happen. Its all just uneducated, biased supposition. You're clapping with one hand.

This stimulus was about as shitty as the government can get. I wouldn't doubt if half the moneys ends up stolen. The government can't even keep track of the $170 million in AIG bonuses, how the hell do you think the federal government can keep track of $800 billion? Oh, Joe "The Sheriff" Biden is on the job, no one will cross him! Did you hear Biden the other day enforcing responsibility by pleading with others? Yeah right, kiss that $800 billion goodbye, it will stimulate cheats, not hard workers.


I guess I could be like you, bury my head in the sand and hope when I pull my head out the economy will be fixed... :D
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: cubby1223

This stimulus was about as shitty as the government can get. I wouldn't doubt if half the moneys ends up stolen. The government can't even keep track of the $170 million in AIG bonuses, how the hell do you think the federal government can keep track of $800 billion? Oh, Joe "The Sheriff" Biden is on the job, no one will cross him! Did you hear Biden the other day enforcing responsibility by pleading with others? Yeah right, kiss that $800 billion goodbye, it will stimulate cheats, not hard workers.


I guess I could be like you, bury my head in the sand and hope when I pull my head out the economy will be fixed... :D

Well, we can listen to your right-slanted opinion of what you think will happen, or we can listen to highly educated people that live in the world of economics... I think I will choose them over you.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
What some people have is very simple.

It is buyers remorse. And it doesn't surprise me that those of you out there (more fiscal conservative leaning folks) are the ones with the most buyers remorse...you all never really had a horse in this race to begin with...

Bottom line is, the economy long ago stopped being a partisan issue and is simply a global issue of which ANY administration, whether R or D or I or G or what have you..... would be spending a shitload of money right now trying to keep this economy from drowning.

Ds are spending on their constituents, Rs are trying to spend on their constituents....and fiscal conservatives everywhere are represented by no one.

When was the last time we had a fiscal conservative in the office? ha!