Prescott: What would you have done?

BitByBit

Senior member
Jan 2, 2005
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Many see Prescott as something of a disappointment, given its inability to acheive the clock speeds necessary to compete with AMD, and also its heat.
If you were chief architect at Intel, what architectural design changes to the P4 would you have made?

 

BitByBit

Senior member
Jan 2, 2005
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Originally posted by: Peter
It's not a design problem, it's in the manufacturing process.

I'm talking about general performance-enhancing design changes, not just about clock speed.

 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Peter
It's not a design problem, it's in the manufacturing process.

Wrong. Thr process is fine. Dothan is made on a 90 nm process. Its cool running too, very cool.

Prescott's design, high transistor count,transitor leakage, power consumption, causes the heat.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
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I'm really curious to hear the responses to this thread. My opinion is that if anyone is capable of making those decisions, it's because they are already in the industry and so are not allowed to make such comments.

* Not speaking on behalf of Intel
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
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I would have made it water cooled - that way it could have reached higher speeds. Not unlike the latest Mac (if I remember correctly) :D
 
Nov 11, 2004
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I'd suggest keeping a shorter pipeline like the Northwoods and lowering the amount of L2 cache to reduce heat slightly. And advertise them as heaters in areas with a cold climate. :)
 

icarus4586

Senior member
Jun 10, 2004
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Intel's problem is that they overestimated the scalability of NetBurst. Intel was always going for clock speed over IPC with Netburst. P4 Willamette was clock-for-clock slower than the P3 Tualtin it replaced, but it quickly scaled in MHz to make up for that. They tried to do it again with Prescott (under most tests, Prescott is clock-for-clock slower than Northwood), and didn't get as much scaling out of it as they needed. I don't really think Netburst was "savable." No matter what changes you make to it (and still keep it Netburst), it won't be able to outperform AMD's current.
Which is why Intel needs to get back to P6, as they did with the Pentium M, only design a new architecture off it for speed instead of power. Imagine an improved Dothan-like chip that can hit close to 3.0GHz. Even if it consumes 80W, it's still less than Prescott, and it'll be much faster.
 

TheLonelyPhoenix

Diamond Member
Feb 15, 2004
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Originally posted by: TuxDave
I'm really curious to hear the responses to this thread. My opinion is that if anyone is capable of making those decisions, it's because they are already in the industry and so are not allowed to make such comments.

* Not speaking on behalf of Intel

:D I was thinking that too. All the "secrets" to Intel architecture are just that, secrets. I doubt any of us could really comment intelligently on what they "could have done better".
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
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Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Peter
It's not a design problem, it's in the manufacturing process.

Wrong. Thr process is fine. Dothan is made on a 90 nm process. Its cool running too, very cool.

Prescott's design, high transistor count,transitor leakage, power consumption, causes the heat.

if only you realized how dumb that post was. transistor leakage is built in to make the transistors switch faster. if on is defined to be a voltage greater than .5 (arbitrary number) and off is anything less than .5, it will hover around .4 (again, arbitrary number) so when it needs to turn on, the burst from .4 to .5 will be quicker than it would be from 0.0 to 0.5.
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Peter
It's not a design problem, it's in the manufacturing process.

Wrong. Thr process is fine. Dothan is made on a 90 nm process. Its cool running too, very cool.

Prescott's design, high transistor count,transitor leakage, power consumption, causes the heat.

if only you realized how dumb that post was. transistor leakage is built in to make the transistors switch faster. if on is defined to be a voltage greater than .5 (arbitrary number) and off is anything less than .5, it will hover around .4 (again, arbitrary number) so when it needs to turn on, the burst from .4 to .5 will be quicker than it would be from 0.0 to 0.5.

And does that not cause heat ? hows that dumb ? if I learn something then its served a purpose. For an 18 year I'd say I know a fair bit considering I dont work in the industry
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: TuxDave
I'm really curious to hear the responses to this thread. My opinion is that if anyone is capable of making those decisions, it's because they are already in the industry and so are not allowed to make such comments.

* Not speaking on behalf of Intel

Prescott was suppose to have a lower IPC then northwood, am I correct ?. Everyone was surpised when a prescott was slower clock for clock then northwood, but the point of prescott was to be able to scale well beyond 4 ghz. I believe 5 ghz was the top out speed, where Tejas was going to take over, then followed by nehalem (the 10.25 Ghz chip slatted for 2005 in 2003).

But they'v changed thier minds and all of a sudden "Mhz dont matter". See my sig, its from an interview from 2 years ago.
 

Addis

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2004
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If you read the article on why the prescott failed it explains quite a lot.
As far as I remember from the article, Prescott failed because of a "double pumped" ALU along with LVS switches etc. The transistor count and inreased complexity also comes into it.
btw I'm 14.
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
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Originally posted by: Addis
If you read the article on why the prescott failed it explains quite a lot.
As far as I remember from the article, Prescott failed because of a "double pumped" ALU along with LVS switches etc. The transistor count and inreased complexity also comes into it.
btw I'm 14.

I never said prescott failed.

its been a money machine for Intel, to say its a failed chip is not true. True, it has not gone to the dizzy heights of 5 ghz, due to the ditching of netburst. Theres nothing wrong about the LVS switches at all.

Theres an Intel worker on here, ask him ;)
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
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If I was an Intel engineer I would buy a Ferrari.
But I like my Honda Civic.

Basically what it comes down to is heat. Heat is the problem. Our former CTO (and now the VP of my group) Pat Gelsinger gave a great keynote talk on power at ISSCC back in 2001 or so. You can tackle heat at the architectural/microarchitectural level - I know ARM have plenty of papers about this out there. But it's a problem that crosses all levels of the design from architecture to logic to circuitry to process technology.

Each process generation is getting successively harder to design with. People have been stating that the end of "CMOS" is coming. They've been saying it even since 2um (2000nm) technology. But while, I don't see the end in sight, I do see that things are getting much, much harder than they used to be. More architectural complexity to achieve smaller performance gains; increasing problems with noise, heat, power delivery; increasing design team sizes; and lots of issues scaling beyond where we are using traditional silicon processing techniques.

But of all of these problem, power/heat are probably the two biggest. Transistors can be thought of as the equivalent of electronic water valves. You use one signal (the gate) to control water (charge carrier) flow from one pipe (the drain to the source, or visa-versa depending on whether you are a physist or an engineer). If you want to make the analogy a bit closer, imagine that you are using water pressure to adjust the valve.

Back around 0.5um or so, there was essentially no leakage worth speaking of in a transistor. Your water valve had a leak-proof seal (subthreshold leakage), your pipes didn't leak (substrate leakage) and the water pressure that turned the valve on and off didn't leak either (gate leakage). Now in 90nm, all three of these are leaking quite a bit more. The valve never fully shuts off, so water is always flowing through the valve. The pipes leak a bit, so water is falling on the floor. And the water that controls the valve leaks through the valve. That's a lot of leaking water (power).

Can this leakage be fixed? Can you plug the leaks? The answer is, of course, yes - mostly. But if you do, you sacrifice speed of turning on the valve. Similar to the real world, if you tighten things down, using thicker rubber and better seals, then switching the valve on and off is going to slow down. Leaving behind this analogy and back to the real world, about 35% of total chip power on 90nm designs is from leakage (shooting from the hip guess based on numbers I heard thrown about as ISSCC). So if you had a 100W part, if you could get rid of leakage it would be 65W. But the performance sacrifice is too much to consider ever doing this.

And the problem doesn't just affect Intel. Look at graphics chips that require two molex connectors in addition to the motherboard power. Look at the power of high performance CPU designs from other companies (IBM, AMD, even Sun, although they are lower than the rest). Power supplies with 12V dual-rails. Enormous heatsinks, loud fans. Extremely complex power delivery systems getting harder and harder as voltages continue to get lower, while current is rising. (100W at 1.5V is 66A, 100W at 1V is 100A). Meanwhile mainstream consumer preferences are towards smaller, quieter, less intrusive.

There are plenty of tricks that can be used to lower power. They add complexity to the design and can introduce their own problems, but that is where the future is headed.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Addis
If you read the article on why the prescott failed it explains quite a lot.
As far as I remember from the article, Prescott failed because of a "double pumped" ALU along with LVS switches etc. The transistor count and inreased complexity also comes into it.
btw I'm 14.

I never said prescott failed.

its been a money machine for Intel, to say its a failed chip is not true. True, it has not gone to the dizzy heights of 5 ghz, due to the ditching of netburst. Theres nothing wrong about the LVS switches at all.

Theres an Intel worker on here, ask him ;)

LVS kicked ass except for <blank>. Can't say anymore than that. :p
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Peter
It's not a design problem, it's in the manufacturing process.

Wrong. Thr process is fine. Dothan is made on a 90 nm process. Its cool running too, very cool.

Prescott's design, high transistor count,transitor leakage, power consumption, causes the heat.

if only you realized how dumb that post was. transistor leakage is built in to make the transistors switch faster. if on is defined to be a voltage greater than .5 (arbitrary number) and off is anything less than .5, it will hover around .4 (again, arbitrary number) so when it needs to turn on, the burst from .4 to .5 will be quicker than it would be from 0.0 to 0.5.

And does that not cause heat ? hows that dumb ? if I learn something then its served a purpose. For an 18 year I'd say I know a fair bit considering I dont work in the industry

im only 19, so that isnt a good excuse, and stop putting a space between the end of your sentence and the ?. what do you mean if youve learned something its served a purpose? i dont get why that has weight on this arguement.

i dont work in the industry either, but its called reading and you should try it before you make false claims about something so advanced you cant fathom it yet. i am currently studying to be a computer engineer and this stuff is still so over my head.

to answer your question (which PM has already answered, and he knows what he is talking about better than almost anyone id say), yes heat is a problem, but you also want it to be fast, so finding the right balance is key.
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
Originally posted by: clarkey01
Originally posted by: Peter
It's not a design problem, it's in the manufacturing process.

Wrong. Thr process is fine. Dothan is made on a 90 nm process. Its cool running too, very cool.

Prescott's design, high transistor count,transitor leakage, power consumption, causes the heat.

if only you realized how dumb that post was. transistor leakage is built in to make the transistors switch faster. if on is defined to be a voltage greater than .5 (arbitrary number) and off is anything less than .5, it will hover around .4 (again, arbitrary number) so when it needs to turn on, the burst from .4 to .5 will be quicker than it would be from 0.0 to 0.5.

And does that not cause heat ? hows that dumb ? if I learn something then its served a purpose. For an 18 year I'd say I know a fair bit considering I dont work in the industry

im only 19, so that isnt a good excuse, and stop putting a space between the end of your sentence and the ?. what do you mean if youve learned something its served a purpose? i dont get why that has weight on this arguement.

i dont work in the industry either, but its called reading and you should try it before you make false claims about something so advanced you cant fathom it yet. i am currently studying to be a computer engineer and this stuff is still so over my head.

to answer your question (which PM has already answered, and he knows what he is talking about better than almost anyone id say), yes heat is a problem, but you also want it to be fast, so finding the right balance is key.


Well if you feel like being picky go ahead. By the way your grammar needs a little work on too. What are the false claims I made? Does Prescott not have a higher transistor count over Northwood?

You want to be all holier then thou fine, If I am able to learn something then I have done ok out of it.

I stated what I believed to be the cause of the heat problems with Prescott. I can only go off what I read in forums, web sites. But feel to to put me down, if it makes you feel any better. Unless you work at Intel like that other guy then I reckon you should let him put me in place.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
From an academic standpoint, you're both right. Transistor leakage is a big power/heat problem that needs to be addressed. However, that doesn't mean we should kill off all leakage. There are two components of power to look at: standby and active switching. Low leakage transistors are generally slower than high leakage transistors due to its reduced ability to drive current. So if you need to build a very fast circuit using only low leakage transistors, your transistors will be pretty large (to increase its strength) and hence have an active switching penalty because you have larger loads. Or..... you can mix in some high leakage transistors so you can speed up the path and reduce the size of the transistors by tradiing off active power to leakage power. The optimal point for power vs performance does encourage having leaky transistors.

Now on the other hand, if you don't care about power vs performance and just care about absolute power, them I guess you'll be playing around with mostly low leakage transistors.

This is taught in your digital circuit design classes I believe.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Originally posted by: clarkey01

Well if you feel like being picky go ahead. By the way your grammar needs a little work on too. What are the false claims I made? Does Prescott not have a higher transistor count over Northwood?

You want to be all holier then thou fine, If I am able to learn something then I have done ok out of it.

I stated what I believed to be the cause of the heat problems with Prescott. I can only go off what I read in forums, web sites. But feel to to put me down, if it makes you feel any better. Unless you work at Intel like that other guy then I reckon you should let him put me in place.

i dont feel like being picky, but putting a space after the last word and before the ? is annoying. also, i made no distinction whether or not i agreed or disagreed with the rest of your post...just the transistor leakage statement.

tuxdave, the standby and active switching components of power were what i was driving at...i just forgot to say that. i am currently in a class that is dealing with the basics of these principles. we delve more into this subject in digital design I, like you said.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: Bigsm00th
Originally posted by: clarkey01

Well if you feel like being picky go ahead. By the way your grammar needs a little work on too. What are the false claims I made? Does Prescott not have a higher transistor count over Northwood?

You want to be all holier then thou fine, If I am able to learn something then I have done ok out of it.

I stated what I believed to be the cause of the heat problems with Prescott. I can only go off what I read in forums, web sites. But feel to to put me down, if it makes you feel any better. Unless you work at Intel like that other guy then I reckon you should let him put me in place.

i dont feel like being picky, but putting a space after the last word and before the ? is annoying. also, i made no distinction whether or not i agreed or disagreed with the rest of your post...just the transistor leakage statement.

tuxdave, the standby and active switching components of power were what i was driving at...i just forgot to say that. i am currently in a class that is dealing with the basics of these principles. we delve more into this subject in digital design I, like you said.

Nice... do you know what area of circuits you're going to try to settle in? As interesting *cough cough* as digital circuits may be, analog circuit design has a much better job security although it's hard as hell.
 

imported_whatever

Platinum Member
Jul 9, 2004
2,019
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Anybody think of how it would have gone if Intel had simply taken Northwood and given it a die shrink and extra cache for 1MB L2 cache total? I believe that it would be considerably faster than Prescott as well as having a lower transistor count and therefore a smaller die and lower heat output.
 

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 22, 2005
35
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One thing I have always despised about both Intel and AMD is their failure to adapt leather into their fab process. I've been advocating this technique for years, and now that case mods and the like are all the rage, we're still stuck in the stone age trying to show off crappy materials on the motherboard like silicon. Make the goddamn PCB from a nice lamb skin and give it a good semi-aniline dye...make your electonic components from diamond, ruby, or sapphire. The performance increases will go through the roof and finally we'll get style worthy of a transparent case.