Preimums rise faster under Obamacare than in piror 8 years combined!

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
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Why are you complaining? You fought against serious reform to get Obamacare. You objected to a serious dedicated effort, and you have what you wanted.

Congratulations.

Huh? I am not complaining about the ACA at all, I'm talking about our system up until this point. What on earth made you think that my post was a complaint againstt recent positive reforms?

You shouldn't confuse me telling you that duplicative and wasteful legislative dithering is a bad idea with "fighting against serious reform". Really I was fighting against transparent tactics of people trying to kill serious reform. You might have been too naive to see that.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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I agree with you that Obamacare won't do anything to lower the percentage of GDP spent on health care because it doesn't address the real problem. If anything, it will increase the percentage of GDP spent on health care which will make our system look even more expensive and inefficient compared to the evil sochulust systems.



Personally, I'd prefer not to see people dying on the streets from treatable conditions or having to go bankrupt because they were working poor and became sick.



I don't have a problem with that. I don't see how 100% coverage and that goal are necessarily mutually exclusive.



Let's not drop context. It's assumed that when people say "100% coverage" they mean "effective coverage" and not "just a band-aid." Somehow all of those evul sochulast countries manage to do it.



I don't see any metaphysical reason why we can't spend the same world leading 17% of GDP and have a level of coverage as good as what other nation's have for a smaller percentage of national GDP and also in terms of fewer American dollars per capita.



A 20 year-old procedure is better than no procedure or a procedure that results in your bankruptcy.



Aren't working poor productive members of society? How does the system work for them? Is it also good for them? Or do hard-working poor people just not count? What about hard-working lower middle class and middle class people? Many hard working middle class people suffered economic catastrophes under the free market system, too.



...And what about the uncovered 15%? Are they no longer human? What if they have jerbs and work hard at their jerbs and are productive?


Where have seen people dying in the streets due to lack of medical care before Obamacare?,

and as for those evil socialist countries they control the costs and don't let the insurance or pharmaceutical companies dictate the terms like they do here when they wrote Obamacare while the fools thought it was a government plan for the good of the masses.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
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The reason is because of American expectations and habits. Even in a state like Massachusetts that is ahead of the curve, ONE THIRD of heathcare spending is waste:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303754404579308922659280620

Why?

Americans being Americans making poor decisions thats why.

You add that to our obesity epidemic and we will NEVER come CLOSE in per capita spending to all those healthy, skinny, walk everywhere Europeans and their socialist heathcare systems.

America has enough money to cover everyone in America if we lived like Europeans. America does not have enough money to cover everyone in America living like Americans.

Actually this is just wrong information:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html?_r=0

American lifestyle habits are simply not a large driver of our increased health care costs. What's interesting is that the ACA directly attacks hospital readmissions, which as you said IS a large contributor to our costs.

Presumably that makes you happy, right?

There is simply no logic to the idea that if we had single payer overall heathcare spending would go down. Unless you are going to be Mr. Dictator and shove the system down the throats of Americans and FORCE THEM (via law) to take better care of themselves.

That's not really in line with the facts either. The growth of medicare and medicaid spending has been markedly lower than the growth of private health spending for a long time now. That's pretty much perfect logic for how our spending would be lower with single payer.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136
True. I discussed the long-term real world effects of the IPAB as expressed by real medical professional organizations like the AMA who are very much against it. I did not state how it will work on paper in theory in fantasyland as expressed by liberal politicians.

The doctor's lobby is against a board that cuts payments to doctors? Color me shocked.

What's funny is that Medicare, Medicaid, and every private insurance company already has a board like the IPAB, the ACA just makes it so the IPAB can actually function. Strangely, innovation soldiers on.

Again though, if you think the idea that Medicare and Medicaid having a board that looks into the utility of medical procedures will destroy innovation in this country that means our system for innovating requires no critical assessment of the merits of what they create. That's a shit innovation system.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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American lifestyle habits are simply not a large driver of our increased health care costs.

You are correct that by itself our lifestyle is not enough to drive costs. It is the combination of our lifestyle and expectation level towards heathcare that drives costs.

For example, all the extra testing doctors do for liability reasons that is 2.4% of spending:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/29/9/1569.abstract

Or how our special snowflake mentality makes us overtreat for conditions like cancer:

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/sto...philadelphia-cancer-patients-overtreated.aspx

and many other diseases. Thanks to our "the customer is always right" approach to healthcare that becomes more and more disconnected from the real costs a third of our healthcare spending is waste:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...necessary-health-care-two-charts-explain-why/

Americans just being fat and unhealthy isn't the problem. The fact that our fat asses demand so much from the system when the inevitable sh*t hits the fan is what is expensive.

What's interesting is that the ACA directly attacks hospital readmissions, which as you said IS a large contributor to our costs.

Presumably that makes you happy, right?

Sure. I am a rational person. I can probably list a half dozen changes that were good that are part of the ACA. But that doesn't mean I like the ACA. The damage it is doing is far greater than the benefit. The things I like about the ACA could be done without the mandate and other parts I dislike, but that would have required a Congress that wasn't lobbied to death by an insurance industry that does a lot of political spending.

Seeing as how the ACA shows our Congress is bought and paid for, I just wish they would have done nothing instead of create the love letter for the industry (or more exactly the largest insurance companies in the industry) that the ACA is.

That's not really in line with the facts either. The growth of medicare and medicaid spending has been markedly lower than the growth of private health spending for a long time now. That's pretty much perfect logic for how our spending would be lower with single payer.

And it is also perfect example about why innovation, and honestly top talent going into the medical field, would be gone in the system you want. The reason Medicaid and Medicare payments are so low compared to private insurance companies is because they PAY LESS.

They pay less for the same procedures, they pay less for new innovative procedures if they pay at all, they never pay for anything close to an elective procedure and they prevent Medicare and Medicaid patients from getting elective procedures on the side so the standard of care stagnates.

There is a reason that Medicaid participation rates are so low, and that Medicare participation rates are dropping. Those doctors that do participate are leaving less available slots open for Medicare and Medicaid patients and more slots for private insurance patients that pay the bills. Or maybe the doctor quits taking insurance all together and moves towards a 1%er concierge practice, thereby separating access to the best medical talent from the average American.

Here is the great article that talks about slotting, reimbursements and the temptation to just say "screw it" and go concierge:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/09/blame-patients-long-wait-times.html

What's funny is that Medicare, Medicaid, and every private insurance company already has a board like the IPAB, the ACA just makes it so the IPAB can actually function. Strangely, innovation soldiers on.

It soldiers on because no single board has enough leverage to control the industry. Even if Medicare decides a procedure is not worth coveraging, if enough private insurances decide to support the procedure there is enough ROI on the R&D to make it available to the public.

You combine that power together, or give the insurance companies a convenient reason to cede power like with the IPAB, and suddenly it is this board of bean counters and not the best minds in medicine that is defining what is the acceptable level of modern patient care and what is the best results we can get for patients that can't afford to pay for everything with cash.

Again though, if you think the idea that Medicare and Medicaid having a board that looks into the utility of medical procedures will destroy innovation in this country that means our system for innovating requires no critical assessment of the merits of what they create. That's a shit innovation system.

No, there is a critical assessment of merits but that isn't happening with the bean counters that run Medicare and Medicaid. Now private insurance companies assess the innovation on their own and decide to pay or not pay based on the data and not budget projections. But with the existence of a more centralised panel like the IPAB, now one group will set standards for the whole industry.

I don't see how you don't get the disconnect here.

Innovation happens in medicine because someone or some company expects to make money off that innovation. In order for them to make money, there has to be some way for them to be compensated above and beyond what the current level of care costs. Otherwise, why innovate? That is typically the practical reason for heath care costs to rise each year.

The problem is that innovation happens in bursts, not continuously. For five years it is done one way, then a new million dollar machine is released and then from that time forward the new standard of care costs 20% more to account for the machine costs. Averaged over a long period or across the entire industry it looks continuous, but really in each segment costs due to innovation are closer to stairs than a hill.

This doesn't work for a bureaucrat panel of beancounter that wants healthcare spending to increase at certain and steady x% intervals each year that they can budget for. So instead of assessing the merits of the new standard of care, it is thrown out and what we had was good enough end of story. Medicare and Medicaid have done this for YEARS. No reason to think the IPAB will be better or different, the motivation to control costs via beancounters is the same.

Oh and in the case of Medicare if you publically try to push the standard of care yourself as a physician via advertisements (aka push the old people to expect more so they push Medicare to pay more) get ready for a Medicare audit or two. Those always cost thousands of dollars even if you are 100% by the books, like an IRS audit. The priority becomes controlling costs, not the best patient care possible.

You and other progressives can pitch one fit after another that doctors should go into medicine to help people and not for the compensation, or that companies should innovate to push the standard of value in care and not just for their own profits. Call the system shit, call the doctors greedy, call the drug companies evil.

But all the temper tantrums in the world won't change facts-

A more consolidated system around the IPAB panel will HAVE TO cut medical profits to contain costs which will stifle innovation and over a long time will send America's greatest minds into finance/law/IT/whatever instead of medicine which lowers the potential quality of care for us all.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Huh? I am not complaining about the ACA at all, I'm talking about our system up until this point. What on earth made you think that my post was a complaint againstt recent positive reforms?

You shouldn't confuse me telling you that duplicative and wasteful legislative dithering is a bad idea with "fighting against serious reform". Really I was fighting against transparent tactics of people trying to kill serious reform. You might have been too naive to see that.

No, I understood you perfectly. You said that doing real reform which is what I proposed was something that Congress would not have time for You opposed health care reform of which insurance reform could have been a part, but you supported the diversion and here we are years later and you got what you asked for.

Again, congratulations. The politicians came through just as we knew they would.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
Actually this is just wrong information:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html?_r=0

American lifestyle habits are simply not a large driver of our increased health care costs. What's interesting is that the ACA directly attacks hospital readmissions, which as you said IS a large contributor to our costs.

Presumably that makes you happy, right?



That's not really in line with the facts either. The growth of medicare and medicaid spending has been markedly lower than the growth of private health spending for a long time now. That's pretty much perfect logic for how our spending would be lower with single payer.

Yes, so long as the only metric that concerns you is 'per capita spending'. I prefer to look at outcomes and quality of care instead.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136
No, I understood you perfectly. You said that doing real reform which is what I proposed was something that Congress would not have time for You opposed health care reform of which insurance reform could have been a part, but you supported the diversion and here we are years later and you got what you asked for.

Again, congratulations. The politicians came through just as we knew they would.

Once again, no. I opposed doing nothing, which is what your proposal would have led to.

While putting things off to a blue ribbon committee is usually foolish, in this case it was doubly foolish considering the millions of man hours and the reams of data we already had concerning health reform. So not only was the committee dumb, it would be replicating work already done so it was dumb AND wasteful.

By the way, this is just the beginning. Don't think that we're done with the health care system yet so you have lots more to look forward to.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Once again, no. I opposed doing nothing, which is what your proposal would have led to.

While putting things off to a blue ribbon committee is usually foolish, in this case it was doubly foolish considering the millions of man hours and the reams of data we already had concerning health reform. So not only was the committee dumb, it would be replicating work already done so it was dumb AND wasteful.

By the way, this is just the beginning. Don't think that we're done with the health care system yet so you have lots more to look forward to.


Oh the "We know everything but we can't tie our shoes" argument again. We have nothing which is organized and considers the consequences of various real world implementation. But you have a library of information you and your politicians don't understand and that's sufficient. Well the great wisdom and knowledge you have regarding something you haven't the first clue about has given us no improvements, a more difficult system to navigate, but you do have Obamacare. You and yours diverted from what needs to be done, but oh, no. Nothing needs to be done. You know everything. Magic missile medicine. Hell you guys cant even let people get their diabetic supplies delivered to them without causing providers to break the law. Yeah, you had that all figured out.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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By the way, this is just the beginning. Don't think that we're done with the health care system yet so you have lots more to look forward to.

Democrats won't get another piece of healthcare regulation the size and scope of Obamacare through Congress in a long time.

Heck, Obamacare basically spent all of Obama's political capital. He was expected to roll from Obamacare to immigration or entitlement reform, but instead he got stuck on that for four years and it has become his landmark piece of legislation and a huge part of his legacy.

A Democrat that poorly manages a scarce resource due to naivety, imagine that.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Democrats won't get another piece of healthcare regulation the size and scope of Obamacare through Congress in a long time.

Heck, Obamacare basically spent all of Obama's political capital. He was expected to roll from Obamacare to immigration or entitlement reform, but instead he got stuck on that for four years and it has become his landmark piece of legislation and a huge part of his legacy.

A Democrat that poorly manages a scarce resource due to naivety, imagine that.

He's right though. They haven't finished screwing things up yet. It's about rules and regulations and bureaucracy to people like that, and if it makes things harder then it's good. Partisans don't care about the quality of people's life, they want their politicians to win. Lords and masters of ignorance. God help us.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Sorry, but regardless of your 'study' doctors who dont get paid aren't going to be curing much disease. Sick people are not happier.

Psst, look at the date of the study.

13 years ago I spent less time fixing less time fixing a month's worth of problems than I do for one day now. Government programs and regulations now consume more time than private insurance, but they aren't great either. Fighting an ever growing bureaucracy isn't in the best interest of the patient, but who the hell cares about them anyway. If they be like to die then they had better do it and decrease the costs of health care. Scrooge would love it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136
Sorry, but regardless of your 'study' doctors who dont get paid aren't going to be curing much disease. Sick people are not happier.

Haha. You said something and when it was refuted with actual analysis you just say you don't care.

Think about how silly that is for a minute.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136
Psst, look at the date of the study.

13 years ago I spent less time fixing less time fixing a month's worth of problems than I do for one day now. Government programs and regulations now consume more time than private insurance, but they aren't great either. Fighting an ever growing bureaucracy isn't in the best interest of the patient, but who the hell cares about them anyway. If they be like to die then they had better do it and decrease the costs of health care. Scrooge would love it.

If you would like to post another study that is more recent that says something different I'm all ears.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
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If you would like to post another study that is more recent that says something different I'm all ears.

Patient satisfaction is a pretty worthless metric. People don't know what they are missing if things could be better, so it becomes a metric of "how much of a pain in the ass it was and how much it cost me," not how good the care was.

The better metric is physician satisfaction because (this is about Medicaid but same concept):

Physician satisfaction has been associated with outcomes important to patients, insurers, and state governments. In one study, physician satisfaction was correlated with patient satisfaction, increased continuity of care, lower patient no-show rates, and more reasonable charges for follow-up visits.10 Less satisfied general practitioners in England were more likely to prescribe inappropriate drugs.11 Physician satisfaction was also found to predict physician turnover12 and was associated with participation in the Ontario physician strike.13 Therefore, physician satisfaction with Medicaid managed care may affect both quality of care and physician participation in the program.

http://www.jfponline.com/index.php?id=22143&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=168420
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136
Patient satisfaction is a pretty worthless metric. People don't know what they are missing if things could be better, so it becomes a metric of "how much of a pain in the ass it was and how much it cost me," not how good the care was.

Interesting, empirical analysis of patient satisfaction disagrees with you:

http://circoutcomes.ahajournals.org/content/3/2/188.long

Where did you get your information from?

The better metric is physician satisfaction because (this is about Medicaid but same concept):

http://www.jfponline.com/index.php?id=22143&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=168420

On what basis are you saying that physician satisfaction is a better metric?
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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Interesting, empirical analysis of patient satisfaction disagrees with you:

http://circoutcomes.ahajournals.org/content/3/2/188.long

Where did you get your information from?

Here is a good link that talks about why focusing on patient satisfaction as the top metric hurts patients:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/02/patient-satisfaction-kill.html

Here is the best part:

Our health system provides overwhelming incentives to “do more.” The flawed fee-for-service payment system gives a financial carrot to order more tests. The emphasis on patient satisfaction pressures doctors to acquiesce to demands for medications. And finally, the malpractice system punishes doctors for not ordering, or not referring, enough, never for overuse of medical resources.

We need are more incentives to do less. Reward doctors for sticking to evidence-based clinical guidelines. Back them up for saying “no” to patients, at the risk of lower satisfaction scores.

By focusing on patient satisfaction you actually increase the amount of special snowflake waste I keep talking about.

On what basis are you saying that physician satisfaction is a better metric?

I say that because physicians have a better idea of what quality care is than patients.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Affordable? Not so much. Another example of progressive doublespeak.

1. There is one progressive senator. Dems are middle/right.

2. Using a republican think tank's health care plan doesn't magically make it become "progressive" because a middle/right party pushes it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Booyah, American exceptionalism! Booyah!

Sorry but you simply don't know what you are talking about. Walk away from the propaganda and take the time to actually learn about the Canadian system. Or not, your choice. Feel free to believe that Canadians are too stupid to know that our health care system is a 'soup kitchen'.

Huh, makes me wonder how the heck I managed to survive my cancer with such poor treatment.
Not poor treatment, just not as good. Look, there's a reason so many Canadians come to America even though treatment in Canada is extremely cheap. They can get better, more modern care much more quickly, and to some people that's worth paying the extra. With prostate cancer for instance several Canadians were in my father's group because treatment in Canada is rationed by waiting queues and is much more likely to leave one permanently impaired than what is available in America.

For another thing, we have a much, much lower tolerance for risk. Treatment for my thyroid cancer involved a massive dose of radioactive iodine and a week in radioactive isolation. The treatment for the same disease in Canada is the same massive dose of radioactive iodine, but no isolation. The Canadian system simply cannot afford the isolation, so one is given the pill and sent home with such admonitions as avoid any contact with children or pregnant women, women of child-bearing age, or those with depressed immune systems, don't kiss or have sex, don't stay close to anyone for long, and don't share eating utensils for at least a week. In reality most people are capable of following those instructions and under the Canadian system the risk is acceptable because the system simply cannot afford the isolation. Under the American system, that small risk to others is deemed unacceptable because we can afford the isolation.

How embarrassing for the restaurant that the soup kitchen gets better reviews then, huh?

That is pretty funny that you chalk up our horrible health care system to our rock and roll lifestyle though.
Our "horrible health care system"? Somehow I cannot picture even you saying that with a straight face. Unless of course it's horrible simply because it's not government provided.

He's right though. They haven't finished screwing things up yet. It's about rules and regulations and bureaucracy to people like that, and if it makes things harder then it's good. Partisans don't care about the quality of people's life, they want their politicians to win. Lords and masters of ignorance. God help us.
This is true. If only the Republicans were significantly better!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,731
54,740
136
Here is a good link that talks about why focusing on patient satisfaction as the top metric hurts patients:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/02/patient-satisfaction-kill.html

Here is the best part:



By focusing on patient satisfaction you actually increase the amount of special snowflake waste I keep talking about.



I say that because physicians have a better idea of what quality care is than patients.

That's an interesting study, I'm going to have to read more about it later, so thanks!

I would say that I read more about physician satisfaction however and there are a number of studies that don't find any effect on health outcomes from it. It also is, importantly, measuring doctor satisfaction which is clearly based on a lot more than how good the quality of care their patients get.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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For another thing, we have a much, much lower tolerance for risk. Treatment for my thyroid cancer involved a massive dose of radioactive iodine and a week in radioactive isolation. The treatment for the same disease in Canada is the same massive dose of radioactive iodine, but no isolation. The Canadian system simply cannot afford the isolation, so one is given the pill and sent home with such admonitions as avoid any contact with children or pregnant women, women of child-bearing age, or those with depressed immune systems, don't kiss or have sex, don't stay close to anyone for long, and don't share eating utensils for at least a week. In reality most people are capable of following those instructions and under the Canadian system the risk is acceptable because the system simply cannot afford the isolation. Under the American system, that small risk to others is deemed unacceptable because we can afford the isolation.

Define "we can afford". If you mean we can borrow money from others and pay for it, I can't disagree.

I had never heard of "radioactive isolation" so I googled it and on the first page I found this:

"The Canadian government mandates strict radiation safety precautions to ensure that members of the public are not exposed to significant amounts of radiation. Radiation exposure to others can occur through two pathways: (1) "contamination" via bodily fluids or (2) direct exposure to gamma rays emitted from your body.

Regarding "contamination" via bodily fluids: the RAI dose that you receive gets picked up by any thyroid or thyroid cancer tissue, but it also excretes in your urine and feces. A small amount is also contained in other bodily fluids such as perspiration and saliva. You will be given special instructions during your isolation period to prevent contamination.

Regarding direct exposure to gamma rays: this can be reduced to insignificant levels by ensuring that you stay at least three to four meters away from others for a few days after treatment. It is particularly important to avoid close contact with children and pregnant women during these few days.

To meet the above radiation safety requirements, it will be necessary for you to undergo a period of isolation and to follow some safety guidelines. You have the option of being treated in isolation as a hospital inpatient or outpatient (if your home environment qualifies for this treatment). If you are interested in outpatient treatment, please inform your Endocrinologist. A telephone interview with our Assistant Radiation Safety Officer will then be arranged to determine if you meet all of the criteria."



I would really like to know exactly what said isolation costs per day. Just a normal room (we are talking simply real estate, no treatment) in most hospitals runs over $1,000 a day. Just throwing the term "radioactive" in, even if its the exact same room, has to add a metric fuckton above and beyond any actual realized costs.

BTW, from what I read (which is not much) the rules don't seem all that darn hard to follow.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
We know it's a lot more expensive (how this was obscured by the left was the real art), the question from here on out is going to be, "was it worth it?"

Folks are answering that question now and when they start paying premiums and deductibles. A few die hard nutjobs are going to fight for or against the thing no matter what, but for me the bottom line is that Obamacare finally broke inertia on health care/insurance and that is good, but apart from that it is a trainwreck.

It does not look good for Obummer or anyone who fought for, rather than against, Obamacare at this point. The moving goal posts and flat out lies work for partisan hacks, but independents are going to need something more substantial than continued conflation and obfuscation of the problems swarming The Affordable Care Act.

With all that said, I don't think I'd trade Obamacare for No Obamacare, something had to get done. That might sound obtuse or plain stupid, but I have some faith that Obamacare will get chiseled by changes into something worthwhile. The main obstacle here is the infallibility of bureaurats.

Conservatives in legislature complete stubborn resistance to change was as big a part of the problem as anything. Obama got ahead of himself, but shit, I somewhat agree that it HAD to be done.
 
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