Pregnant Women Warned: Consent to Surgical Birth or Else

[alzan]

In my whole life I have not once, in writing, on line, in person, or by any other means called someone a stupid wise and beautiful woman. Today I do. I name you "stupid wise and beautiful woman".

Careful, as per TH "Resorting to insults due to a simple disagreement exhibits juvenile behavior."

 

[mikeymikec]

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that point?

Has TH ever acknowledged any point on these forums which is put in counter to his point of view?

 

[Exophase]

What happens when a hospital is unable to provide treatment?

A hospital should absolutely not provide air lift to a patient who wishes to receive a treatment that is against their best medical judgement, this is a terrible use of emergency resources. Those helicopters are not some cheap and unlimited resource. At some pragmatism has to trump your naive concept of absolute rights.

Did you notice how the hospital warned they would seek consent from family services if the woman appeared before them with a trial of labor? That's because they deemed the delivery a risk to the baby who could not provide consent. Your argument is that they were wrong, because you estimate your own medical judgement to be superior to a hospital's. Or, you think that the mother taking any unnecessary risk to the child is okay so long as it's not 100% certain that they'll die.

Otherwise, the patient may have some right to refuse treatment even in a life threatening emergency, but this too has legal limits. What the patient would never have had the right to do is to force the hospital to provide an alternative treatment they don't stand behind or force the hospital to use its own limited resources to ensure the patient has this kind of access. What you are asking for is ridiculously overly accommodating.

And in all of this you think that this idea is hypocritical from someone who supports a woman's right to abortion in the early process of pregnancy because you refuse to differentiate between an early term and full term fetus (or an embryo for that matter)

 

[MrPickins]

Resorting to insults due to a simple disagreement exhibits juvenile behavior.

So does sticking your fingers in your ears and signing "I can't hear you" when someone presents you with evidence that refutes your opinion.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Careful, as per TH "Resorting to insults due to a simple disagreement exhibits juvenile behavior."

It's hard to apologize for insulting such a horrible person who has shown nothing but wanton disregard for human life while pretending to care about rights by putting on such a fabulous display of irrational logic. This is only exceeded by an unsurpassed display of ignorace about every aspect of this situation, masterfully misrepresenting all things in every regard. If there were Nobel prizes offered for the astounding ability to fail to grasp a situation and so much more, no one would dare challenge the award.

 

[Texashiker]

It's hard to apologize for insulting such a horrible person who has shown nothing but wanton disregard for human life while pretending to care about rights by putting on such a fabulous display of irrational logic.

Regardless of everything you posted, the patient has the final say in their treatment course.

If she harms the baby, she should answer for that.

If the woman dies during childbirth, that is her choice. That is not your choice, not the doctors choice and not the hospitals choice.

 

[Exophase]

Regardless of everything you posted, the patient has the final say in their treatment course.

If she harms the baby, she should answer for that.

If the woman dies during childbirth, that is her choice. That is not your choice, not the doctors choice and not the hospitals choice.

So by extrapolation, your position is that abortion clinics should be legal, but anyone who uses them should go to jail for murder. Right.

 

[zinfamous]

Regardless of everything you posted, the patient has the final say in their treatment course.

If she harms the baby, she should answer for that.

If the woman dies during childbirth, that is her choice. That is not your choice, not the doctors choice and not the hospitals choice.

BUT SHE WOULDN'T BE ANSWERING FOR THAT

you, in your infinite stupidity, argue that hospital should be forced into that liability. That is the only possible result of your misguided, childish understanding of "right to care"

Further, I guaranfuckingtee that had this hospital chose to "life lift" her to another hospital to perform an unethical procedure, you would be on here within hours bitching about how you have to pay for this dumb bitch's emergency care in your insurance premiums.

Physicians make a choice when they decide to train and become physicians, they even take an oath for this: "do no harm." You are, here, stating that they should be forced to deny that oath. At least the courts, and 99.999% of society do not agree with your dumbfuck hillbilly uneducated 3rd grade perspective on humanity.

 

[Texashiker]

BUT SHE WOULDN'T BE ANSWERING FOR THAT

you, in your infinite stupidity, argue that hospital should be forced into that liability. That is the only possible result of your misguided, childish understanding of "right to care"

There have been court cases where hospitals and doctors can not be held responsible for the bad decisions of the patients.

You are speculating that the hospital and doctor did not take measures to protect themselves.

 

[z1ggy]

Regardless of everything you posted, the patient has the final say in their treatment course.

If she harms the baby, she should answer for that.

If the woman dies during childbirth, that is her choice. That is not your choice, not the doctors choice and not the hospitals choice.

It is very much the doctor's choice. Unless a patient comes in flat lined with a DNR, a doctor has every right & responsibility to help the patient.

But seriously, TH you need a take a step back and forget your pride and ego for a minute and think about what you are saying here in this thread and what your values and morals seem to be from within this forum. Here you are, supporting a woman (and her rights) that essentially is willfully choosing to harm and possibly kill herself and her unborn child. You seem to be upset at the hospital for taking the stance of forcing her to have the birth via C section, which is in this case justifiable. If we compare this situation to your typical women's right thread, usually about abortion... You are ASS BACKWARDS in your logic. You are supporting a woman who wants to potentially harm her child, possibly killing it (akin to abortion) and are wagging your finger at a group of people trying to stop that (right wing pro lifers).

Please for the love of sweet infant baby jesus, can you tell me you see why many of us shake our heads and get upset with you?? Can you not see how we face palm over a lot of the stuff you say?

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

There have been court cases where hospitals and doctors can not be held responsible for the bad decisions of the patients.

You are speculating that the hospital and doctor did not take measures to protect themselves.

You think the hospital wants to go through the trial to see if their situation fits into those precedents? You think the doctors want to live with killing someone even if it turns out to be legal?

 

[werepossum]

Regardless of everything you posted, the patient has the final say in their treatment course.

If she harms the baby, she should answer for that.

If the woman dies during childbirth, that is her choice. That is not your choice, not the doctors choice and not the hospitals choice.

The patient has the final say in her treatment course.

The doctor has the final say in whether she provides that treatment course.

The hospital has the final say in whether that treatment course takes place within their facility.

Everybody wins, since no one concerned has his or her freedom infringed. The woman got to try VB in a hospital properly equipped for the risks inherent in her preferred treatment, the original doctor and hospital were not forced to provide health care in their professional opinions not suitable for the patient and their own combined capabilities, the new hospital got a patient needing the more sophisticated equipment they had purchased, and the baby was protected from his or her selfish idiot of a mother. It's a freakin' Normal Rockwell moment, dude.

 

[Phanuel]

I have a question, were there hospitals back when we were still cavemen? Did we, like, gather around the pregnant women when their water broke in the back of the cave and go, "Oh, looks like its time to get on our woolly mammoth and ride over to the local Blue Shield or Kaiser or what have you and deliver this baby!"

How did we, as a species reproduce before hospitals? Did we not exist before hospitals? We simultaneously came into existence at the same time modern hospitals did?


What I'm trying to say is, this woman is welcome to try a homebirth if she's so dead set on having her child the natural way. How's that for human rights? Is that acceptable Trollhiker?

 

[Victorian Gray]

If a hospital can make the woman in the opening post go through a medical procedure she does not consent to, what is stopping a doctor or hospital from doing the same to you?

*Choosing* to go to a different doctor or hospital. The same *choice* that she had.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Doctor - You have cancer and need aggressive treatment.
alzan - what are my chances?
Doctor - 50/50
alzan - I have led a good life, thank you but I would like to die with dignity.
Doctor - stay right here.
Doctor - calls lawyer, gets a court order, restrains you and makes you go through treatment.

Do not make excuses and do not minimize the impact of this example on patient rights.

All of the above? Bullshit. People make those choices every day and nobody stops them.

 

[Texashiker]

All of the above? Bullshit. People make those choices every day and nobody stops them.

Two minutes and I am out of here for the weekend.

Why are you still posting? You have proven you do not care about womens rights.

Go be a bigot somewhere else.

 

[SirStev0]

Does it matter why she had a c-section?

Yes. It does.
If you had a ruptured Uterus with her first birth. Or Significant Placental accreta. Or Cervical Stenosis that was not amendable to be a birth canal with the first birth, it would be basically accessory to murder to allow her to "try" a vaginal birth.

Both mother and child would bleed out in seconds.

She has plenty of "choices" to see other doctors. She doesn't have to "pick" that hospital.
She can go die on her bedroom floor like people did 100 years ago, before science and medicine gave us something more than "god's will" to make it through child birth.
Or maybe you chicken little neocons want to go back to the darkages when mother/infant mortality was 50%.

People don't die every day in child birth because we don't let uneducated dumbasses make stupid ass decisions.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Two minutes and I am out of here for the weekend.

Why are you still posting? You have proven you do not care about womens rights.

Go be a bigot somewhere else.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Two minutes and I am out of here for the weekend.

Why are you still posting? You have proven you do not care about womens rights.

Go be a bigot somewhere else.

Only in your twisted bubble is this about women's rights. You'll notice only you and the joke trolls are on your side and even they are hesitant to really say anything.