Preference for paper in laser printer

[Muse]

I'm running out. I have an HP4M printer with 250 sheet tray. Wish they were a little more generous with the room in the tray because it's almost impossible to break a 500 sheet ream into 250/250 (without counting :whiste🙂, and I always have a little left over after filling the tray the 2nd time.

Anyway, I always buy a case of ten reams of 20lb. Should I just get the cheapest I can find? 92 brightness? 94 brightness? What are the issues? I have a $10 off coupon at Office Max for anything over $20, but looking online it looks like their prices are pretty high. Costco had paper for $28 and $30 when I was in the store a couple weeks ago.

 

[corkyg]

Much of the answer depends on what the purpose of all that prining is. I usually get my paper at Office Depot, and get designated laser paper or multi-purpose, 20 lb., 94 brightness. Maybe 4 reams a year for two printers.

BTW, there are office grade lasers that take more than a ream, and more than one size or color at a time. Selection is made on the control panel.

 

[dbcooper1]

When you open a new ream, just make two equal stacks; you should be able to get very close. Recycled paper will generally leave more debris in your printer over time. You probably won't notice the difference between 92 and 94 unless you compare them side by side. Aside from this, I just shop for price.

 

[Paperdoc]

dbcooper's right that you will not really see the difference between 92 and 94 brightness. (Even if you can see it on close inspection, who cares?)

Paper designed for laser printers or Xerox copiers is the right stuff. Do NOT use paper for inkjets. But all laser and Xerographic technology printers do terrible things to paper! This from someone who worked for decades in the paper business. So the paper has to be made to "stand up" to that and still perform. Dust generation inside the printer is a factor, but usually a small one. Image sharpness can suffer on poor papers - either ragged edges or missing white spots in black areas. Curl of the paper sheet is the more likely source of trouble. So, I suggest two things:

1. Note which way the paper is placed in the feed tray. That is, look at the wrapped ream - with the wrapping seam up or down when you open the wrap and place the paper in the tray - and print several copies. Now remove the paper from the feed tray and turn it over, then print several more copies. Whichever way makes the finished copies come out flatter, do it that way all the time. NOTE that, if you switch to another paper supply, you'll have to re-do this experiment. Also note in a HP4 that the upper feed slot for custom sheets feeds in the OPPOSITE way - feeding from the bottom tray turns the paper over right at the beginning, but not when fed from the upper slot.

2. If necessary, experiment by buying one ream each of several brands of paper and trying the "feed side up" test above. Decide which paper gives you the best (least curled) final product. Then stick with that brand - most paper mills don't change much about how they make their papers. So what works will continue to do so, and what malfunctions probably will not get any better.

The ultimate test is when you make two-sided copies. An HP4M won't do that by itself, but you may have occasion to do it by manually re-loading printed-one-side paper back in to print the second side. This is when the paper curl factor becomes even more important, and a little less predictable.

 

[Muse]

When you open a new ream, just make two equal stacks; you should be able to get very close. Recycled paper will generally leave more debris in your printer over time. You probably won't notice the difference between 92 and 94 unless you compare them side by side. Aside from this, I just shop for price.

Yesterday I bought two boxes of paper on sale at Office Depot, 5 reams each. The brand is "Double A" and it's made in Thailand "from farmed trees" and they have stuff on the box extolling their growing methods as being ecologically sound and conscientious, for what it's worth (maybe not much, I don't know).

It's 94 brightness, but what caught my eye right at checkout was that it's 22 lb. I didn't expect that. The ad in the paper didn't mention that, I just assumed it would be 20 lb. like they always are, at least I thought they always are. I have some 24 lb. paper from way back, paid more for it IIRC, and I thought that the heavier papers were generally thicker and more expensive. Why would they have a 22 lb. paper on sale like that ($11.99 for 5 reams, limit 2 boxes/customer)?

I'm wondering if 22 lb. is really a good idea. Won't this mean that I won't really get 250 sheets in my HP4 tray? IOW, wouldn't it be thicker than the 20 lb. paper I've been using? BTW, I've been having very good luck with the 10 ream box I have almost finished off, not many skipped sheets, very very few. It's Georgia Pacific and only 88 brightness, I just noticed, a multipurpose paper.

Paper designed for laser printers or Xerox copiers is the right stuff. Do NOT use paper for inkjets.

The boxes don't say a word about what the paper is for! There's a very small set of graphics that evidently suggest that it's multipurpose, i.e. symbols that I presume are for laser, inkjet, copy, fax, and some other machine.

But all laser and Xerographic technology printers do terrible things to paper! This from someone who worked for decades in the paper business. So the paper has to be made to "stand up" to that and still perform. Dust generation inside the printer is a factor, but usually a small one. Image sharpness can suffer on poor papers - either ragged edges or missing white spots in black areas. Curl of the paper sheet is the more likely source of trouble. So, I suggest two things:

1. Note which way the paper is placed in the feed tray. That is, look at the wrapped ream - with the wrapping seam up or down when you open the wrap and place the paper in the tray - and print several copies. Now remove the paper from the feed tray and turn it over, then print several more copies. Whichever way makes the finished copies come out flatter, do it that way all the time.

Great idea!

NOTE that, if you switch to another paper supply, you'll have to re-do this experiment. Also note in a HP4 that the upper feed slot for custom sheets feeds in the OPPOSITE way - feeding from the bottom tray turns the paper over right at the beginning, but not when fed from the upper slot.

2. If necessary, experiment by buying one ream each of several brands of paper and trying the "feed side up" test above. Decide which paper gives you the best (least curled) final product. Then stick with that brand - most paper mills don't change much about how they make their papers. So what works will continue to do so, and what malfunctions probably will not get any better.

The ultimate test is when you make two-sided copies. An HP4M won't do that by itself, but you may have occasion to do it by manually re-loading printed-one-side paper back in to print the second side. This is when the paper curl factor becomes even more important, and a little less predictable.

It's because of occasional skipped sheets when refeeding paper to achieve both-sides printing that I've long abandoned using the bottom tray for this and I now always manually feed for the 2nd side. I don't recall having repetitive problems when manually feeding paper but one time a tiny piece tore off from the corner of one sheet and I had to first find the piece and then manage to remove it, a pretty tricky affair.

I haven't opened either box of the Double A brand, 5-ream, multipurpose, 94 brightness, 22 lb. ( ! ), "farmed tree," made in Thailand paper I just bought at Office Depot. Is this stuff likely to be OK?

 

[Muse]

Bump... Anybody?

I haven't opened either box of the Double A brand, 5-ream, multipurpose, 94 brightness, 22 lb. ( ! ), "farmed tree," made in Thailand paper I just bought at Office Depot. Is this stuff likely to be OK? Is 22 lb paper better than 20 lb (in an HP4M) or does it matter? Please see last post for details!

 

[PsiStar]

I won't even try to search for this now, but once upon a time far far away, I was told or read that off color paper is easier to read text on. Most of what I print is for reading .... text, so I choose the not so bright & not so white.

 

[Muse]

I won't even try to search for this now, but once upon a time far far away, I was told or read that off color paper is easier to read text on. Most of what I print is for reading .... text, so I choose the not so bright & not so white.

Interesting, thanks!

 

[Muse]

Interesting, thanks!

I suppose it might depend on the lighting. And, of course, your eyesight. Anyone? I've never heard this before. My last paper was 88 brightness, I never even encounter such dark stuff in the stores!

I did some googling and people generally say the thicker 22 lb. paper is better in that it's less apt to curl, so less apt to jam and also less apt to have blank sheets sneak through. Guess it might be OK. The 94 brightness? Dunno. Whether or not toner will stick nicely, will have to see.

 

[Paperdoc]

The things that make a certain paper perform well in a laser printer are not nearly as simple as the weight and Brightness, unfortunately. Incidentally, that "weight" is really something called "Basis Weight" in the paper business. It is the weight per specified area of the paper. In English measurement units it is very confusing because the "specified area" is highly variable, depending on the use. In this case - office papers and printer sheets at 8½" x 11" - the basis is 2,000 sheets of this size of paper. So technically it is 20 lb per 2,000 sheets of paper 8½" x 11". In metric units it is much simpler because their system uses only ONE area - one square meter - for all Basis Weight specifications. This paper works out to 75.2 grams per square meter, so you'll see on the box the spec's 20 pound, or 75 gsm.

As you might expect, if all other components and manufacturing practices are unchanged, a heavier Basis Weight paper will be thicker and stiffer than a lighter one. However, thickness, stiffness, surface smoothness, and many other properties are also affected substantially by the type of wood fibers used to make it, by a surface smoothing technique called calendering, and by many more subtle aspects of the paper making machine. So the fact that your Thai paper is 22# does NOT indicate that it will be thicker or stiffer or less prone to curl development or give better print quality or anything else. In fact, I might suspect that its fiber is weaker than common North American tree fibers (also affected a lot by the pulping and bleaching technologies used), so they are supplying a slightly heavier paper to match the final characteristics of common papers in the North American market.

Aside from feeding performance, the tendency to shed lint, and things like stiffness that affect the way the paper moves through the printer, a property called surface smoothness can have an impact on laser print quality. Small differences in surface smoothness won't matter much because the toner is laid down as a dry powder on the surface and later heated to melt its polymeric adhesive to bond it to the surface. But the paper surface must have reasonable smoothness for the initial dry lay-down to work well without voids. I once tried to use a highly textured paper in a LaserJet 4 and it did not work. What is MUCH more important in this part of the printing process is electrical conductivity of the paper surface. The printing process involves creating on a special coated drum an electrical charge image of the text, then attracting to that a fine dust of dry toner particles. Immediately after that the drum surface contacts the paper surface and the charged toner particles must be attracted to the paper and stick there by electrostatic charge forces, leaving the drum surface clean. Then the sheet goes through a blast of heat that melts the polymer coating on the toner particles, permanently bonding them to the paper surface so they don't shake free. For this to happen the paper surface must have enough electrical conductivity to accept the charged dry toner particles, but not be so conductive that the charge is completely carried away and the particles become free to move around or be blown off. Just the right conductivity is needed, and papermakers aiming their product to the Xerographic printing and laser printer market monitor this and control it carefully. Papers that were never designed and manufactured for this use may not have the right balance. Papers made specifically for inkjet use, which has VERY different requirements, may not work on a laser printer. On the other hand, it is possible to make a "multi-use" paper that can work reasonably well (just not absolutely the best) in both types of printers. It's all in the design and manufacturing processes.

Over the years paper makers have sought to make their product whiter and brighter because they are more appealing when compared to each other side-by-side as blank sheets. They also adjust the shade of white subtly because people prefer a slightly blue shade over a slightly yellow shade. They have pushed their success in a sort of "brighter is better" marketing trend, and I blame both the paper marketers for pushing this and the consumers for buying into it. In terms of basic functionality it is not so important, but it does have an aesthetic impact. As for wanting paper not to be too bright because it is harder to read, I have not seen that argument before. However, I DO know that one can demonstrate that a high-brightness GLOSSY paper can be harder to read text on than a matte (non-glossy) paper. That is why textbooks are put on those papers - their primary purpose is for reading and studying intensely, unlike magazines that want to impress you with colorful highly-detailed glitzy pictures (to sell you stuff).

So, will the Thai paper work? Probably. Not because of the specs, but just on faith that Office Depot would not try to sell really poor paper and annoy their customers. But the proof is in the performance, so try it and monitor it.

By the way, I've seen paper Tech Specialists do trials of office Xerox copier papers in large companies and printing firms to prove they should buy lots of it and use it regularly. To do that they often will print 50 or more CASES (10 reams each) of paper and count the numbers of different types or problems - there are supposed to be so few that you must print that much to get good statistics!

 

[mfenn]

Wow, I guess now we know the story behind Paperdoc's handle. Great info though!

 

[Muse]

Great information, thanks Paperdoc! I had next to no understanding of laser printer technology. I will hopefully be more careful and thoughtful next time I buy paper for my laser printers. I actually have an HP4+. Not being used right now but I will make it my go-to printer one of these days and attach the HP4M to my downstairs laptop. I will likely transfer the PS card at the same time, assuming the 4+ will accommodate it. It might be a long time before I buy more paper, assuming the Thai paper is usable. Next time I will hopefully buy paper formulated for laser printers. I actually wasn't in a hurry this time. I might have had paper to last more than a year, depending.

 

[lxskllr]

I like 100% post consumer content recycled paper. It's a little greyer than newspaper, and much easier on the eyes. If I were getting paper for my use, that's what I'd use. Bright white paper gives me eye strain.

 

[Muse]

I like 100% post consumer content recycled paper. It's a little greyer than newspaper, and much easier on the eyes. If I were getting paper for my use, that's what I'd use. Bright white paper gives me eye strain.

Hmm, well I just bought 94 after being used to 88. Guess I'll have to use lower watt bulbs. 😕 Well, I suppose it would help. I guess I can still return it, maybe I will. I don't imagine they'll sandbag me. And like I said, I'm in no hurry, I could probably last a year on what I still have! I haven't opened either box yet, still have the receipt.

 

[Zap]

I like 100% post consumer content recycled paper. It's a little greyer than newspaper, and much easier on the eyes. If I were getting paper for my use, that's what I'd use. Bright white paper gives me eye strain.

I think it has to do with contrast. You want contrast because it helps you see better, but too much contrast strains your eyes. Look up "bias lighting." Seems like there are similar reasons.

 

[Muse]

I think it has to do with contrast. You want contrast because it helps you see better, but too much contrast strains your eyes. Look up "bias lighting." Seems like there are similar reasons.

The hits I'm getting on "bias lighting" seem specific to home theater or monitors, not seeing anything about the printed word.

 

[Muse]

I'm seeing occasional deals on "all purpose" paper, nothing specific to laser printers.

People are saying that the brighter papers are harder on the eyes. The ads usually say brightness 94 or 92, and they evidently figure the customers are impressed by high numbers.

So, my question is where do I find the not so bright paper, and at a decent price? I figure to buy a 10 ream box as usual. I'm in no giant hurry, I still have at least 1000 sheets and my usage is pretty slight.

 

[Paperdoc]

You may not find that. I see by a quick look around that almost all copy papers these days are 92 Brightness (USA system), many at 94, with "Premium" products at 96 and some over that. In other words, all the paper companies believe that customers will always buy the brighter paper, and usually that is right. So they simply don't make lower-brightness white copier papers because the market for them is very small. For a bit of perspective, a machine considered modern and competitive for quality and cost in that product line might make 1,000 tons per day. At 20# per 2,000 sheets 8½" x 11" (or 5# per 500-sheet ream package), that is 400,000 reams per day ( a little over 275 reams per minute) from ONE such machine! This is one of those "Go big or go home!" businesses.

The older trick of buying recycled paper if you want lower Brightness no longer works. At one time (well over a decade ago) recycled papers did have lower Brightness because the ink removal technology in the recycling process was imperfect, leaving the paper just slightly grey. But these days nobody is willing to accept "lower quality" just because it is recycled, and many people won't pay higher prices for such paper, either. So the processes used have been improved, and many copier papers sold are NOT 100% recycled; the combination means such papers also are at 92 Brightness.

Here's one idea that might work. I have used in the past copier papers or multi-pupose papers from a colored product line, selecting a very light beige color. It is quite noticeably NOT white, of lower Brightness, and towards creamy yellow instead of blue in shade. It is easy on the eyes and can be used to make your printed product distinctive in some cases, as long as you're sure the recipient will not see it a simply cheap. However, because they are colored and made in small volumes, these papers usually are not low-priced the way common copier white papers are.

 

[Muse]

Thank you, Paperdoc. I suspected as much, it all makes sense. I will likely be satisfied with 92 brightness in what they call all purpose paper, not copier paper. I don't seem to ever see paper designated for laser printers. I used to have some problems with blank sheets hitchhiking through my HP4M, but not so frequently these days. Not many accordion sheets, paper jams these days either. Maybe the manufacturing processes are better, I don't know.

I am wondering about something you might know about, being what to get in terms of a toner cartridge for my HP4M and HP4+. The last cartridge i bought was a Xerox off Amazon, supplied by a third party. It wasn't represented as remanufactured, but looking at the shell, it obviously was. It didn't last two years of very light use and the printer started throwing errors and I couldn't print. The sheets are not sharp in places, much of the text unreadable. I swapped cartridges between the machines and the problem was evidently with the cartridge. Is it really necessary to pay $80-$120 for a brand new HP cartridge, or are there companies that provide reliable and reasonably equivalent remanufactured cartridges? This might be outside your expertise, I realize.

Edit: Hmm, a quick search found this page at HP's website that takes a pot shot at remanufactured cartridges in general, however they do have a recycling program. It isn't clear to me if they reuse any of the components of returned used cartridges.

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/supplies/toner-cartridge-refill.html

Edit2: A Pricegrabber search came up with lots over $100 for evidently genuine new HP 92298A cartridges, but Adorama appears to offer just that for $80 shipped:

http://www.adorama.com/IHP92298A.html?utm_term=Other&utm_medium=Shopping%20Site&utm_campaign=Other&utm_source=pgrabl

Yeah, I know, I just hijacked my own thread, but I spent over a week not being able to print (until a couple of days ago) and it was pretty frustrating not having a working printer.

Edit3: I just called Adorama to confirm that it's a brand new HP toner cartridge and the answer is an emphatic yes. Best price I see anywhere by at least $20, so I bought. It seems to me I got burned on the one and only retread I have bought, so I'm going new, baby!

 

[Paperdoc]

I'm not thrilled with the pricing of new HP cartridges vs. refilled ones. But I can understand HP's argument that their price may be worth it if it NEVER fails, because some refilled ones do.

I used to have my carts for my LaserJet4 refilled by a local supplier who did a good job and I never had trouble with them. Right now I have one I bought from a mail-order firm that prints OK but has developed flaws in the drum so that it also prints random little "spider" patterns along an edge, so I have to get it replaced well before it is empty. It only cost me about $45 delivered, but it only lasted half it's expected life.

I would not buy a cart that is simply refilled. The good shops actually do rebuild by replacing key components as well as toner. But I'm inclined to agree that $80 for a genuine HP cart is a good deal.

Regarding paper, I do find it common now to see "All-Purpose" paper all over the market. It is an outgrowth of paper makers' efforts to find a cheaper way to make decent ink jet paper. You see, those papers originally were made with a very special type of pigment in their surface coatings that is hard to apply and dry and hence very expensive. It also generally could be made only on older slower paper machines. With a lot of work by pigment suppliers, coating adhesive makers and paper makers, new coatings have been developed that use more conventional higher-speed processes and still give decent ink jet printer performance. Not perfect, but pretty damn good. As a side result, these coatings are compatible with Xerographic printing. So as long as the underlying paper is made for Xerox / Laser printing, putting such a coating on them does create a good "All-Purpose" sheet that does most jobs well.

I'm looking up info for you other post.

 

[Muse]

Regarding new vs retread toner cartridges, I saved the following post from March of 2007 from I believe this same forum. I pasted in the Anandtech Forums URL at the bottom of this post, it worked back in 2007 but apparently it doesn't work now, however I'm sure the thread is findable if one is persistent. Note, however, that I did edit this post back in March 2007 before storing it in my data for future reference, making quite a few corrections. The poster was accurate enough to make those corrections obvious:
- - - -
wseyller
Senior Member

Posts: 756
Joined: 05/16/2004

Toner is much more complex than just powder.

Toner is not just toner. There are many different toner technologies. Some toner is chemically processed, and some is not. Toner has to be compatible with the components it works with. It must have the proper flow agents, so the toner properly transports. Some toner is horrible quality. Some toner will have multiple sized microns of toner particles. Some are too coarse and some are too fine. This will impact the electrostatic charging. Some particles will charge and some will not. Sometimes toner is not compatible with the magnetic roller and flow agents will separate causing a film on the mag sleeve. This will create a resistant barrier causing the toner not to charge properly. This will normally happen within 1 to 2 thousand pages. Toner has to have a proper melting point. If an incorrect toner is used it causes the toner not to fuse properly to the paper. This toner will build up on the fuser unit and damage the fuser. Some fusers only work well with chemically processed toner. I am only listing a very small percentage of potential problems.

Toner is not the only component in a laser cartridge that should be replaced.

There are many other components in laser cartridges that wear due to friction. OPC drum typically only lasts one cycle. The charge generation layer will wear differently depending on usage. If printing is done continuously and toner is laid down on the page evenly throughout the page then your drum will survive much longer. Turning the printer on, off, then on alot or printing in the same page area will destroy a drum much faster. Drums are cleaned by a wiper blade which does most of the damage. Wiper blades typically have a power type lubricant on them to reduce friction. Eventually the wiper blade may also wear but it will last longer than the drum. A primary charge roller charges and conditions the drum. Primary charge rollers normally survive more than one cycle but they may have a mid-cycle failure later on. Most cartridge remanufacturers will replace them with new ones or have them recoated with a protective layer. Magnetic rollers have a fine abrasive layer to produce friction and also have a conductive coating. This charges toner particles also with the help of a doctor blade that rests against the mag roller to also help produce friction. Eventually the coating will wear. Without the conductive coating the roller will oxidize causing very light print. Also the doctor blade wears quite a bit.

Shelf life of a toner cartridge varies but it is safe to say 1 to 2 years depending on the cartridge and the environment the cartridge is stored in.

If toner comes in contact with any abnormal humidity or temperature it will degrade over a short time. Toner particles will stick together and produce bad prints. The primary charge rollers (PCRs) rest against the drum the whole time in storage. The PCR has chemicals called plasticizers within it that keeps it plyable. Eventually the plasticizers will evaporate causing the PCR to harden and crack. Also the plasticizers will contaiminate the drum with one line across the drum. Also if the PCR rests against the drum too long it will leave a flat spot in the PCR causing improper charging to the drum.

This is all I can stand to write, but this is only a fraction of a percent of potential issues and requirements to reusing laser cartridges.

So should you use refill kits (known as drill and filling) which only replaces toner with who knows what toner and what toner manufacturer it came from.... If you really just don't care about quality or if you are not worried about damage to your fuser unit, then go for it.



http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=30&threadid=2022571&f
pic Title: laser toner
Topic Summary:
Created On: 03/19/2007 03:33 PM

 

[mfenn]

Regarding new vs retread toner cartridges, I saved the following post from March of 2007 from I believe this same forum. I pasted in the Anandtech Forums URL at the bottom of this post, it worked back in 2007 but apparently it doesn't work now, however I'm sure the thread is findable if one is persistent.

The link you have is a FuseTalk link that is now broken because they switched to vBulletin a while ago. You are correct that the thread should still be in the archive somewhere.

EDIT: Found it