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Power Supply Unit questions

Zenoth

Diamond Member
I'm planning to buy a new system (for a small network at home).

I've chosen my parts, almost all of them ... I still have a PSU to select.

I'll build it in November, since it's going to use the new ATi's X1800 XT GPU.

So here is the main specifications ...

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
Motherboard: ASUS A8N-E nForce 4 Ultra
Memory: Corsair 400 Mhz 1024 Twinx XL x 2 (2 GB)
GPU: ATi X1800 XT 512 MB
Sound Card: SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS (OEM)

Now my question is ... which PSU should I buy to make sure such a system gets enough juice to run more than stable (by that, I mean that if I consider to over-clock, then it'd have enough juice as well).

Thanks for your time, and help.
 
Bump. I'd like to know soon. I'm planning to order one before this week ends.

At least a few suggestions would help. Which brand / model / wattage, etc.

Thanks.
 
Just read the reviews from trusted sites!

To summarize: good brands are Forton, Enermax, PCP&C, Seasonic, Antec (maybe), Zippy, OCZ, and I probably forgot a bunch too.

Get an ATX2.0 one with a native 24-pin mobo connector, dual 12v rails, and at least 400W for a margin of error - more if you plan on overclocking heavily or going to Crossfire. I have a 535W Enermax and it's great - nice and quiet, voltage right where it should be and doesn't even blink when the system goes to full load (and it's quite a heavy load - check my rig).
 
You are building a high-end rig, so don't skimp on the most important piece of it.

I'd recommend a PC P&C 510W-SLI.

Seasonic is a decent choice as well.
 
if you're building this system with an x1800xt, i'd say you have quite a while to do your homework on PSU's 😉
 
I think the Seasonic S12 got some very good reviews on Tom's Hardware Guide a few weeks ago compared to a lot of other high performance psu's. Good efficiency, (over 80 % on some cases) stable, and very quiet. I have an old (actually, more like six months) Antec TruePower 1.0 and really like it. It's quiet and reliable. If it's any indication, the 2.0 would be very good for the price. Take your time.
 
Just read the reviews from trusted sites!

To summarize: good brands are Forton, Enermax, PCP&C, Seasonic, Antec (maybe), Zippy, OCZ, and I probably forgot a bunch too.

Get an ATX2.0 one with a native 24-pin mobo connector, dual 12v rails, and at least 400W for a margin of error - more if you plan on overclocking heavily or going to Crossfire. I have a 535W Enermax and it's great - nice and quiet, voltage right where it should be and doesn't even blink when the system goes to full load (and it's quite a heavy load - check my rig).

First of all intel has done away with the ATX2.0 standard!!
It has absolutely NO bearing on your PSU!!

2nd of all.....yes those are all good brands.

3rd of all.....This dual rail fiasco....Dual rails come from the same source as single rails...no different....read this...

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=23916-- heres the article....also read the ensuing discussion..very interesting!!
This is to clear up the enormous confusion I've noticed in the last few months about dual 12V line current specs on PSUs.

SPECS

Version 2.0 of Intel's ATX12V Power Supply Design Guide began recommending dual 12V lines for PSUs that can deliver more than 18A at 12V. Why? To abide by safety requirements of UL and EM 60950, which stipulates not more than 240VA on any wires or exposed traces. Intel's PSU Guide calls for a current limiter that keeps current to under 20A on each of the 12V rails: 12V x 20A = 240VA.

What is the safety reason for this 240VA maximum? It's the maximum recommended for an electronic device that a consumer will have reasonable likelihood of access. In plain terms, it might be to keep people from zapping themselves inside a PC, or more likely, accidentally creating a fire risk. This safety "rule" does not apply to any electronic or electrical devices where the chance of consumer exposure is low, such as a TV or CRT monitor, for example.

It's important to remember that even though there are two "independent" 12V lines, they still draw from the same main source. It's highly unlikely that there are two separate 120VAC:12VDC power conversion devices in a PSU; this would be much too costly and inefficient. There is only one 12VDC source, and the two lines draw from the same transformer. Each line is coming from the same 12VDC source, but through its own "controlled gateway".

PSU makers' specs are misleading in that thay rate the current capacity of each 12V rail independently. What really matters is the total 12V current: Generally, up to 20A is available on any one 12V line assuming the total 12V current capacity of the PSU is not exceed.

What the above means is that you don't need to worry about imbalances in power draw on the 12V lines ?as long as no single rail is asked to deliver more than 20A. PSU makers seem to mark each line for max current on a purely arbitrary basis, probably more for marketing reasons than any other. A PSU rated for 32A max on the 12V lines can be labelled many different ways:

12V1: 18A, 12V2: 14A
12V1: 17A, 12V2: 15A
12V1: 16A, 12V2: 16A
12V1: 15A, 12V2: 17A
12V1: 14A, 12V2: 18A

It could be marked 20A + 12A, but being a cautious bunch, the engineers will probably not specify more than 18A on any one line. This gives 2A headroom to allow some room for error for the current limiting circuit.

REALITIES

Note that 12V2 is supposed to supply only the AUX12V (2x12V) 4-pin plug, which feeds only the CPU. With PSUs that adhere strictly to the ATX 12V v2.xx Guide, 12V1 supplies 12V to all the other components that require it. This might lead to a problem with very high power gaming systems that utilize two high power video cards. Current high end VGA cards by themselves can draw >90VA each. Much of this comes from the 12V line via the 6-pin PCIe connector for the VGA card. If you add several hard drives and optical drives, the 240VA limit may be too low.

The current ATX12V v2.2 spec was created before dual VGA card gaming configurations for Intel boards were announced. SLI, being an AMD feature that came many months earlier, may have been ignored by Intel's PSU design guide team.

Not all PSUs with 6-pin PCIe connectors follow ATX12V v2.xx to the letter, as the guide does not cover the 6-pin 12V PCIe outputs. This connector and its current delivery capacity was specified by nVidia, the originator of the SLI concept. nVidia maintains a list of power supplies that they have certified as being suitable for SLI systems. The question is, Where should this 12V come from?

I interviewed a number of engineers from several power supply manufacturers to pose this very question. The answers were surprising. All of the engineers I spoke with wished to remain anonymous. This is a summary of what they told me:

**Some PSU makers are using 12V2 to supply more than just the 2x12V or 4x12V connectors. It is often used to power the 6-pin 12V PCIe outputs.

**Many PSUs marked as having dual 12V lines actually have only a single 12V line ? they do not feature two <240VA power limiters specified by ATX12V v2.xx; they have only one Over Current Protection (current limiter) for the single 12V line.

**The 240VA current limit is considered a high cost, useless annoyance by most PSU makers. If multiple 12V lines are used, because the vast majority of components now use mostly 12V, the 18~20A limit for any line means that the precise power distribution to the various 12V output connectors can become critically important in some cases.

**The engineers point to the many high power pre-V2.xx ATX12V PSUs that had as much as 30A on a single 12V line. As a product class, those have not proven to be any more dangerous in any way than other ATX12V PSUs.

What's really interesting is that Intel has tacitly waived the 240VA limit requirement in its PSU validation program for the better part of a year.

Intel maintains a web page listing all the ATX12V they have tested that "meet MINIMUM electrical, mechanical fit and functional compatibility" with Intel desktop boards and processors: http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/35815.htm

For the 32 ATX12V v2.2 PSUs tested in 2005 that are on this list, 17 models are identified as having at least one output line that exceeds 240VA. And yet, these 17 models are on Intel's approved list. According to the engineers I spoke with, the majority of these 17 models have just one 12V line. They also point out that there are another 20 or so ATX12V v2.0 PSU models on the Intel list, and none of them were tested for the 240VA current limit conformance. My sources say that if these models had been tested, more than half would not conform to the 240VA current limit because they have only one 12V line.

Now, my sources say, in the last couple of months, Intel has notified the PSU makers verbally that the 240VA current limit has officially been removed. This means a single 12V line is the accepted norm, never mind ATX12V v2.xx.

What does all this mean? Essentially, the only potential benefit of dual 12V lines is improved safety, and this is disputed by the engineers I spoke with. There are many downsides to dual 12V lines, including higher cost and the extra worry of ensuring adequate 12V current for all the components in complex, high power systems. For the consumer who is trying to make a choice among the myriad of PSUs available on the retail market today, the most practical approach regarding dual 12V lines and power capacity is to consider only the combined 12V current capacity.

EDITED Sept 17/05 with much more detailed info.

_________________
Mike Chin
Editor/Publisher, SPCR


 
Mike - You obviously are clued up on this. If I have a 20 pin PCI Express mobo 939 socket to run anAthlon 4400 dual core processor and intend to use a nVidia 7800GTX graphics card , do i need a 24 pin PSU or will a good ATX 1 20 pin be OK?
TIA
 
I suggest after picking the PS you want then immediately upgrading your decision. As an example buiyng a 450watt Fortron - buy a 500 watt Fortron. Spend the extra $20. If you are making a computer you will be upgrading down the line. I remember when everyone was reccomending 300 watts and some panning those that bought 350 watts. The 300 watt PS is in the closet or in grandma's computer. The same went for 400 watt PS. I bought the 600 watt Enermax recently. I figure two years everyone will be needing these when CPUs are all dual core and 6GZ and your GPU is SLI, dual core and needing water cooling.
 
Originally posted by: doinmybestatlast
I figure two years everyone will be needing these when CPUs are all dual core and 6GZ and your GPU is SLI, dual core and needing water cooling.

Wasn't there a famous quote "300 watts is enough for anyone"? Oh wait, that was something else... 😀

I'd also like to point out (reiterate?) that you can't compare watt ratings alone. Not all [insert total watt rating here] supplies are created equal. I can find you a cheap 450W that is really closer to 375W. You need to look at efficiency, output, peak output, et al.
 
Mike - You obviously are clued up on this.

He's not Mike, he's quoting Mike. SPCR generally recommends much smaller PSU's than other enthusiast sites because they're usually working at stock speeds, or undervolting/underclocking, and usually without high-performance video cards, all of which need relatively noisy cooling solutions.

However, for rigs with beefy GPU's and overclocking the same rules don't apply. Anandtech recently found that increasing PSU wattage from 500W to 600W (or thereabouts) did actually increase the maximum overclock, even though 500W should have been more than enough for the system. And this was on name-brand, very reputable PSU's.

First of all intel has done away with the ATX2.0 standard!!

No, wrong, please don't go telling people that! ATX2.0 has a 24-pin mobo connector instead of a 20-pin. On a given wire of a given gauge you can only send X number of amps down it before it gets dangerously hot, producing a risk for fire, electric shock (and we are people who put our hands inside our PC cases), etc. The extra 4-pins are there to handle extra current for modern PCIe boards that can pull down more amps than it's safe to provide over a 20-pin connection. You might get away with it, but who wants to play that game for the sake of $20?

Using a 20-pin plug in a modern, 24-pin board can lead to instability and other problems. Read the recommendations from DFI's engineers. Please do not mislead people into making decisions that can potentially damage their system - unless you can provide some evidence that you know more about motherboard power supplies than the people who designed DFI's enthusiast motherboards!

3rd of all.....This dual rail fiasco....Dual rails come from the same source as single rails...no different....read this...

Firstly, the reason why two rails is because fluctuations on one won't affect the other as much. For instance, if you put your GPU on full load all of a sudden, that's at least a sudden extra 100W of load. That's going to quite possibly cause a voltage sag, which if it's on the same rail as the CPU might cause a crash. So, we put the CPU and mobo on a different rail to the GPU.

You might say the name-brand PSU's don't do this and have good voltage stability. That's probably because they have dual-rails. 🙂
 
I'll go with the Antec True Power 2.0 550W, thanks for your help guys, and thanks for your time as well.
 
Originally posted by: Fresh Daemon
Mike - You obviously are clued up on this.

He's not Mike, he's quoting Mike. SPCR generally recommends much smaller PSU's than other enthusiast sites because they're usually working at stock speeds, or undervolting/underclocking, and usually without high-performance video cards, all of which need relatively noisy cooling solutions.

However, for rigs with beefy GPU's and overclocking the same rules don't apply. Anandtech recently found that increasing PSU wattage from 500W to 600W (or thereabouts) did actually increase the maximum overclock, even though 500W should have been more than enough for the system. And this was on name-brand, very reputable PSU's.

First of all intel has done away with the ATX2.0 standard!!

No, wrong, please don't go telling people that! ATX2.0 has a 24-pin mobo connector instead of a 20-pin. On a given wire of a given gauge you can only send X number of amps down it before it gets dangerously hot, producing a risk for fire, electric shock (and we are people who put our hands inside our PC cases), etc. The extra 4-pins are there to handle extra current for modern PCIe boards that can pull down more amps than it's safe to provide over a 20-pin connection. You might get away with it, but who wants to play that game for the sake of $20?

Using a 20-pin plug in a modern, 24-pin board can lead to instability and other problems. Read the recommendations from DFI's engineers. Please do not mislead people into making decisions that can potentially damage their system - unless you can provide some evidence that you know more about motherboard power supplies than the people who designed DFI's enthusiast motherboards!

3rd of all.....This dual rail fiasco....Dual rails come from the same source as single rails...no different....read this...

Firstly, the reason why two rails is because fluctuations on one won't affect the other as much. For instance, if you put your GPU on full load all of a sudden, that's at least a sudden extra 100W of load. That's going to quite possibly cause a voltage sag, which if it's on the same rail as the CPU might cause a crash. So, we put the CPU and mobo on a different rail to the GPU.

You might say the name-brand PSU's don't do this and have good voltage stability. That's probably because they have dual-rails. 🙂

Sorry Fresh Daemon nice try to explain away the 24 pin vs the 20 pin power connectors....
But when all is said and done I would say that Mr Chin of SPCR probably has tons more contacts and knowledge than you do on this subject......

Thus as you try to explain away and say that Intel still advocates the ATX standard2.0 is just totally bogus.....

I have even talked to the techies at PCPC where i bought my current PSU...they all say the same thing that Me Chin says about ATX standard2.0......its dead in the water so to speak!!

Next time get your facts straight and read the article from the stand point that the author has a whole lot more experience and probably even a degree or 2 to support what he is saying!!

You can`t explain things away by stating that SPCR undervolts there stuff and that SPCR doesn`t use high power video cards....

That has nothing to do with what Mr Chin`s article adresses.....

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.......lol
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Fresh Daemon
Mike - You obviously are clued up on this.

He's not Mike, he's quoting Mike. SPCR generally recommends much smaller PSU's than other enthusiast sites because they're usually working at stock speeds, or undervolting/underclocking, and usually without high-performance video cards, all of which need relatively noisy cooling solutions.

However, for rigs with beefy GPU's and overclocking the same rules don't apply. Anandtech recently found that increasing PSU wattage from 500W to 600W (or thereabouts) did actually increase the maximum overclock, even though 500W should have been more than enough for the system. And this was on name-brand, very reputable PSU's.

First of all intel has done away with the ATX2.0 standard!!

No, wrong, please don't go telling people that! ATX2.0 has a 24-pin mobo connector instead of a 20-pin. On a given wire of a given gauge you can only send X number of amps down it before it gets dangerously hot, producing a risk for fire, electric shock (and we are people who put our hands inside our PC cases), etc. The extra 4-pins are there to handle extra current for modern PCIe boards that can pull down more amps than it's safe to provide over a 20-pin connection. You might get away with it, but who wants to play that game for the sake of $20?

Using a 20-pin plug in a modern, 24-pin board can lead to instability and other problems. Read the recommendations from DFI's engineers. Please do not mislead people into making decisions that can potentially damage their system - unless you can provide some evidence that you know more about motherboard power supplies than the people who designed DFI's enthusiast motherboards!

3rd of all.....This dual rail fiasco....Dual rails come from the same source as single rails...no different....read this...

Firstly, the reason why two rails is because fluctuations on one won't affect the other as much. For instance, if you put your GPU on full load all of a sudden, that's at least a sudden extra 100W of load. That's going to quite possibly cause a voltage sag, which if it's on the same rail as the CPU might cause a crash. So, we put the CPU and mobo on a different rail to the GPU.

You might say the name-brand PSU's don't do this and have good voltage stability. That's probably because they have dual-rails. 🙂

Sorry Fresh Daemon nice try to explain away the 24 pin vs the 20 pin power connectors....
But when all is said and done I would say that Mr Chin of SPCR probably has tons more contacts and knowledge than you do on this subject......

Thus as you try to explain away and say that Intel still advocates the ATX standard2.0 is just totally bogus.....

I have even talked to the techies at PCPC where i bought my curect PSU...they all say the same thing that Me Chin says about ATX standard2.0......its dead in the water so to speak!!

Next time get your facts straight and read the article from the stand point that the author has a whole lot more experience and probably even a degree or 2 to support what he is saying!!

You can`t explain things away by stating that SPCR undervolts there stuff and that SPCR doesn`t use high power video cards....

That has nothing to do with what Mr Chin`s article adresses.....

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.......lol

what the hell are you babbling on about?



or, let me rephrase it


why the hell are you babbling on?




sarcasm*

O and ive talked to the lead research manager at AMD and he says ATX 3.333333333 (repeating) is still alive and kicking........
OMG I GET THE :cookie: NOW!!!!!11!!!!!!!111111


end sarcasm*
 
Sorry Fresh Daemon nice try to explain away the 24 pin vs the 20 pin power connectors....

At the risk of repeating myself:

SPCR generally recommends much smaller PSU's than other enthusiast sites because they're usually working at stock speeds, or undervolting/underclocking, and usually without high-performance video cards, all of which need relatively noisy cooling solutions.

However, for rigs with beefy GPU's and overclocking the same rules don't apply. Anandtech recently found that increasing PSU wattage from 500W to 600W (or thereabouts) did actually increase the maximum overclock, even though 500W should have been more than enough for the system. And this was on name-brand, very reputable PSU's.



But when all is said and done I would say that Mr Chin of SPCR probably has tons more contacts and knowledge than you do on this subject.....

Oh, almost certainly. It's also safe to say that Anand Lal Shimpi and Oskar Wu have tons more contacts and knowledge than Mike Chin, and what they say confirms what I said above. Mike's findings are correct in a silence-oriented computer, which isn't the same thing at all. Don't compare apples to oranges in future.

In any case, it's very irresponsible and pointless of you to suggest that anyone today looking for an NF4 mobo should consider buying a new 20-pin PSU. That's just completely wrong, and I hope you can see that!
 
I am so sure you are out of your league in this discussion you are having with JEDI...

The fact remains SPCR for sheer review potential is eaual and on par with this fine forum.

In any case, it's very irresponsible and pointless of you to suggest that anyone today looking for an NF4 mobo should consider buying a new 20-pin PSU. That's just completely wrong, and I hope you can see that!

You really don`t have a clue do you?

There are mobo makers as we speak as well as power supply makers who will not and have not went to ATX2.0.

There is no sense at all in going to 2.0 even Intel has backed awasy from thast form factor.

Theres nothing at all irresponsible in suggesting that somebody look for a 20 pin NF4 board!

Several companies still make the 20 pin as well as providing adapters....

As far as Anad and Mr Chin ..... let me point out I do NOT see anad posting such a post as Mr Chin posted!

We have not even heard Anad`s opinion on what Mr Chin has stated....
Why?

becuase Mr Chin is correct in what he is saying!

This isn`t about Mr Anad becuase he has not posted his opinion or anything concerning Intel shying away from the ATX2.0....

so who is irresponsible...most likely you are for not posting links or anything to back up what you are saying....

Have a nic e nite!!
 
You're just ignoring what I'm saying and completely missing my point. Don't waste my time, the OP has wisely decided to ignore your recommendations and nobody else backed you up either.

There is no sense at all in going to 2.0 even Intel has backed awasy from thast form factor.

This is a case in point. How can I take you seriously when it seems that you can't even tell the difference between ATX2.0 and BTX?

ATX2.0 is a PSU specification. It is, by now, pretty much universal at this hardware level.

BTX is a new case/mobo form factor. It's being pushed by Intel and very few besides.
 
If I have a 20 pin PCI Express mobo 939 socket to run anAthlon 4400 dual core processor and intend to use a nVidia 7800GTX graphics card , do i need a 24 pin PSU or will a good ATX 1 20 pin be OK?

It depends on the motherboard. You may get away with it, but the opinion of enthusiasts and professionals is that at the very least, your overclock will be limited. If you were to buy a DFI board, you would get absolutely no support from them until you upgraded to a 24-pin PSU.

From DFI's Angry_Games (head tech of DFI USA): http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101722&postcount=34

you are on your own when using a 20-pin power supply.

DFI no longer will support customers who do not adhere to the minimum power supply requirements.

if the board has a 24-pin power connector, then you must have a true 24-pin power supply.

not a 20-to-24 pin adapter

not a 5,000,323watt 20-pin with 80000 amps on the 12v rail

a true 24-pin native power supply.

period.

there is no argument anymore on this subject.

if the board has a 24-pin power connector, and we state (as we have) that you need a true 24-pin power supply and that a 20-to-24 pin adapter does not work and is not supported, then you need a true native 24-pin power supply.

no arguments

no trying to tell us we dont know what we are talking about.

period

you only have a 20-pin psu? a modded 20-pin psu? a 20-pin psu with a 24-pin adapter?

you are not adhering to the minimim specs required by these boards to run. this means that any problems you have while not adhering to the minimum requirements will result in you being told 'you need a 24-pin native power supply of at least 480w' and that is the only answer you will receive on your problem until you meet the minimum requirements.

sounds harsh?

we don't tell you to put a 24-pin power supply in just to make you angry and see you complain about how you have to upgrade your power supply.

we tell you that you are required to have a 24-pin 480w power supply because that is what is necessary.

if you want to argue about it, by all means continue arguing about it.

but you are not meeting minimum requirements and will not get any answer other than 'you MUST have a 24-pin native 480w power supply to run these motherboards and that is your problem so please upgrade to a minimum 480w 24-pin power supply'


not much else to say on this subject.

i'm tired of some of you who think you know more than our engineers continuing to argue that we have no clue what we are talking about and you can skirt the minimum requirements.

follow the recommended guidelines.

period.

From AndyOCZ (OCZ rep on DFI-street): http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7619&highlight=24-pin+PSU

YOU NEED A 24 PIN PSU TO MAKE THE NF4 BOARD WORK PROPERLY! Epspecially with the 5v memory option. No discussion on this.

If you have an overloaded 12v rail with less than the 25A that DFI recommends, don't even attempt to overclock. You will have CPU errors that cannot be fixed by upping the voltage. The memory controller is on the CPU for A64 and "starving" it for power results in not only CPU errors, but also memory controller errors. Forget the NF2 and Intel chipset logic in terms of your PSU and power requirements. It does not apply here. A64 is a completey different animal.

What kind of PSU and how many watts/amps are really required?

You must have a 24 pin for the NF4 board.

...

Now as for the subject of split 12v rails. IF you loaded all of your gear onto one rail (impossible and I will explain why), then you would have an overload situation. On the OCZ 600w powerstream, the 18A rail is "assigned" to the CPU lead only. The rest of the gear, including the video cards runs off the 20A line. You have 38A available spread over the 2 rails. If you had a less capable PSU with split rails, then loading might be an issue. You would not want 25A split over 2 rails for example.

I realize that many do not agree that split rails can work with SLI. I have a DFI SLI rig running 270 x10, for 2700mhz with 2 x 6800 Ultras in the lab. No issues at all, and she is steady as a rock. We have many, many customers running the same, or even higher overclocks with SLI. The fact is that it pretty isolates the CPU from all else as much as possible, which is a good thing. This results in more stable overclocks. Anyone that doubts whether split rails can work has not tried a strong, good quality PSU.

Read the originating thread of the first quote. The OCZ rep reports that several RAM modules were killed because they were run off a 20-pin PSU. Do you want to risk dead RAM for the sake of a few dollars on a PSU?

Didn't think so.
 
I know what BTX is..you just have no clue what is being said in that article by Mr Chin...

also your so smug....Anad din`t post anything becuase Mr Chin said it all so eloquently and accurately.......and truthfully!!

Since all you can do is spout hot air with no links or any substantial proof to back up your diatribe.....I will declare myself the winner and that wya you can stop wasting my time@@

Have a good evening!!
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
I know what BTX is..you just have no clue what is being said in that article by Mr Chin...

also your so smug....Anad din`t post anything becuase Mr Chin said it all so eloquently and accurately.......and truthfully!!

Since all you can do is spout hot air with no links or any substantial proof to back up your diatribe.....I will declare myself the winner and that wya you can stop wasting my time@@

Have a good evening!!

i declare that u shut the hell up
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
you declare????? rofl......big talk for somebody still in diapers...rofl

so..... this thread should be closed then right?

unless the moderators love to watch a pre-pubescent little boy (JEDI) post immature remarks and show us how much hes in love with himself.



 
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