Power supply makers big SLI scam

[GuitarDaddy]

I know this is going to turn into a Flamefest. But someone needs to say it.

Many of the big makers of power supplies have jumped on the incredible popularity of the new SLI platform and have introduced their SLI solutions. Many of these new power supplies are based on multiple rail architecture, and some even state designed for SLI. WHAT A SCAM!!

1. Multiple rail power supplies where designed many years ago to support multi-processor servers and large hard drive arrays. As was the ATX 2.0 standard

2. The only SLI motherboard available in any quantity, the A8N-SLI clearly states in the specs that it requires >17a on the 12v rail to support a single mid range graphics card and >25a on the 12v to support two high end graphics card. None of these multi rail(SLI) PS's have the required amps on a single rail to support 2 high end cards, and most of them don't have enough amps to support a single mid range card on this board.

3. The power supply makers had to know immediately upon seeing the specs for this new board, that these so called SLI multi-rail PS's were not only "not optimal" for SLI, but in fact should be avoided for SLI systems. But with marketing in place and an extra stock of multi-rails in the wharehouse, they are quietly continuing to promote and sell them as SLI preferred.

4. It has been widely reported that dual rail PS's are cheaper to produce than high amp single rail models.
Providing the makers a higher profit margin.

Dealing with cutting edge technology is tough enough. Shame on these companies for throwing unscrupulous business practices into the mix.

Don't buy a multiple rail power supply for your SLI rig! And if you have one RMA it while you still can!

Flame sheild activated

 

[Algere]

I believe the +12V amp requirements listed for the A8N-SLI is a general rule of thumb based on single rail PSU's. So when they (ASUS) say 25A required e.g., they probably include into the equation, the power requirements of the CPU, drives, & what not, not just the video cards alone. Dual rail PSU's roughly handle half of the +12V load (CPU & MB e.g.) on 1 rail & the other half (drives, video cards, etc.) on the other rail.

So I suppose on the flipside to dual rail PSU's, you could imagine a 500W single rail 25A PSU giving up @ least 7A if not more to the CPU & MB alone on the +12V rail, leaving 18A or probably less to the video cards, hard drives, etc.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
I know this is going to turn into a Flamefest. But someone needs to say it.

Many of the big makers of power supplies have jumped on the incredible popularity of the new SLI platform and have introduced their SLI solutions. Many of these new power supplies are based on multiple rail architecture, and some even state designed for SLI. WHAT A SCAM!!

1. Multiple rail power supplies where designed many years ago to support multi-processor servers and large hard drive arrays. As was the ATX 2.0 standard

2. The only SLI motherboard available in any quantity, the A8N-SLI clearly states in the specs that it requires >17a on the 12v rail to support a single mid range graphics card and >25a on the 12v to support two high end graphics card. None of these multi rail(SLI) PS's have the required amps on a single rail to support 2 high end cards, and most of them don't have enough amps to support a single mid range card on this board.

3. The power supply makers had to know immediately upon seeing the specs for this new board, that these so called SLI multi-rail PS's were not only "not optimal" for SLI, but in fact should be avoided for SLI systems. But with marketing in place and an extra stock of multi-rails in the wharehouse, they are quietly continuing to promote and sell them as SLI preferred.

4. It has been widely reported that dual rail PS's are cheaper to produce than high amp single rail models.
Providing the makers a higher profit margin.

Dealing with cutting edge technology is tough enough. Shame on these companies for throwing unscrupulous business practices into the mix.

Don't buy a multiple rail power supply for your SLI rig! And if you have one RMA it while you still can!

Flame sheild activated

What basis do you have for saying a dual rail PSU won't work. between the two rails there is plenty of power.

EDIT: i suppose if the rails are independant and you hook it up wrong (all on one rail) you could have some problems.

 

[LifeStealer]

I thought they tested new standards before they released them? Silly me...

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
EDIT: i suppose if the rails are independant and you hook it up wrong (all on one rail) you could have some problems.

The rails are obviously independant, it's the amps that are either independant or shared between the rails. Even if the amps are independant to their respective rails, I doubt it's possible (the way dual rail is setup) under unmodified PSU conditions to have it all on one rail.

 

[TheNiceGuy]

What basis do you have for saying a dual rail PSU won't work.

Me.

And a whole heap of other people around the forum. Do a search if you don't believe him.

New OCZ on the way!

 

[deepinya]

Can someone explain this "multi-rail" term to me.

I have an Antec 550 true power and it has a connector that goes to the mobo and then two lines that power the HD and optical drives. My 9800pro has a connectior to draw power from the HD line while the optical drive line powers the floppy and cd-rw.

Is my psu considered mutli?
Can it be used in an SLI rig?

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: deepinya
Can someone explain this "multi-rail" term to me.

I have an Antec 550 true power and it has a connector that goes to the mobo and then two lines that power the HD and optical drives. My 9800pro has a connectior to draw power from the HD line while the optical drive line powers the floppy and cd-rw.

Is my psu considered mutli?
Can it be used in an SLI rig?

Dual rails is a stability feature. e.g. if one +12V rail gets fluctuations or is overloaded by the CPU, the devices connected to the other rail doesn't get affected by such.

To my knowledge your PSU isn't dual/multi railed & it can work (PCIe adapters required) with SLI.

 

[Mudbone]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy

2. The only SLI motherboard available in any quantity, the A8N-SLI clearly states in the specs that it requires >17a on the 12v rail to support a single mid range graphics card and >25a on the 12v to support two high end graphics card. None of these multi rail(SLI) PS's have the required amps on a single rail to support 2 high end cards, and most of them don't have enough amps to support a single mid range card on this board.

So where does PCP&C's 510 SLI fit in with all of this? Its rated at 34A, 38A peak and there is no mention of dual rails. But that doesn't mean its not buit that way.

 

[bradley]

I don't remember seeing anyone specifically advertising dual rail powersupplies as SLI-ready. Although, someone looking for ultimate stability might like the idea of isolating power fluctuations from sensitive components, especially RAM and hard drives; it definitely has some benefit.

And I certainly cannot fault powersupply companies for not anticipating the demands of SLI, or a technology -- literally overnight -- being marketed to small percentage of hobbyists. Anyway, who ever said living on the bleeding edge of speed and power was meant to be easy?

 

[bluslice]

i don't know very much about japanese PSU's but you can't base your use of that POS and say that all dual 12v rail PSU's are crap. If you buy from OCZ, Enermax, Antec...etc., then you'll be getting quality and stable power. By an american PSU. USA!!

 

[bluslice]

what the hell is super storm??

 

[HardWarrior]

Yup, and things like this are why I didn't jump on SLI right away!

 

[GuitarDaddy]

The basis I have is lots of people unable to run dual or sometimes even single high end cards on this board with dual rail PS's. I know of at least 6 people who have RMA'd their dual rail PS's. And many others who RMA'd the motherboard before they figured out the problem. One particular guy finally saw the light and RMA'd the PS while on his third A8N.

And to your second point. Amps are not additive 15a+15a=15a NOT 30a! If you have two rails each running 15a and connect them to the same device, you still only have 15a! If you don't beleive me read an electronics book. Dual rail PS's are esentially two smaller PS's in one box, thats why it is cheaper to build dual rail PS's than high amp single rail units.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Originally posted by: LifeStealer
I thought they tested new standards before they released them? Silly me...

Yeah, they tested the ATX 2.0 standard, IN THE EARLY 1990's when it was developed for multi-processor server applications

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Originally posted by: bradley
I don't remember seeing anyone specifically advertising dual rail powersupplies as SLI-ready. Although, someone looking for ultimate stability might like the idea of isolating power fluctuations from sensitive components, especially RAM and hard drives; it definitely has some benefit.

And I certainly cannot fault powersupply companies for not anticipating the demands of SLI, or a technology -- literally overnight -- being marketed to small percentage of hobbyists. Anyway, who ever said living on the bleeding edge of speed and power was meant to be easy?

Yery good point! I was premature in pointing blame at the PS companies. Upon further review I see most of the reputable makers advertize these as ATX 2.0 or PCI-E ready, although there are a couple labeled as SLI ready. And I can also see peoples confusion in assuming these are certified or approved for SLI. I think ASUS and future SLI mobo makers should clarify that "Just because a PS is ATX 2.0 compliant, doesn't mean it will work on this board"

This whole situation reminds me of the old adage "Buyer Beware", because sellers sure aren't looking after your best interests.

 

[LifeStealer]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy

Originally posted by: LifeStealer
I thought they tested new standards before they released them? Silly me...

Yeah, they tested the ATX 2.0 standard, IN THE EARLY 1990's when it was developed for multi-processor server applications

Test em again!

 

[dgevert]

This is flawed logic. When high-end equipment say they need a certain number of amps to have enough power, it's assumed that other equipment will be using up those amps, stuff like hard drives and other peripherals that consume power.

Dual 12V rails simply split that current, and dedicate half of it to the motherboard and half to peripherals.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: dgevert
This is flawed logic. When high-end equipment say they need a certain number of amps to have enough power, it's assumed that other equipment will be using up those amps, stuff like hard drives and other peripherals that consume power.

Dual 12V rails simply split that current, and dedicate half of it to the motherboard and half to peripherals.

I concur

P.S. I give thy proof.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy

Originally posted by: LifeStealer
I thought they tested new standards before they released them? Silly me...

Yeah, they tested the ATX 2.0 standard, IN THE EARLY 1990's when it was developed for multi-processor server applications

Sounded new when THG tackled it less than a month ago.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
And to your second point. Amps are not additive 15a+15a=15a NOT 30a! If you have two rails each running 15a and connect them to the same device, you still only have 15a! If you don't beleive me read an electronics book. Dual rail PS's are esentially two smaller PS's in one box, thats why it is cheaper to build dual rail PS's than high amp single rail units.

First of all, in a PSU's dual rail configuration, it's not setup to connect 2 +12V rails into 1 device & yes it's additive if you think of it as total amps powering up an entire system or 15A max. allowed going into a single device.

P.S. Unless the amps are shared (like the PSU in my rig (see sig) ) but even though, it's very likely that it has way more than 15A total.

 

[cleanerPA]

So explain something to me, because EE is not my forte- on a typical dual-rail PS, how do you determine what's going where?

I have an Antec Neopower 480, which is a dual rail PS- is the ATX connector using one rail and the peripherals connected via
4-pin Molex connectors going to the other rail? What about the 4-pin aux. connector?

I have zero issues with my rig so far, but I'm not running dual cards- single 6600GT right now. I actually don't have any plans to
do SLI anyway- only reason I got the Asus A8N-SLI is because it is one of the few A64 PCIe boards that are currently available and
it had a decent feature set for what I was looking to buy in a MB.

If the PS becomes an issue- I'll use the Neopower 480 in my Athlon XP system and get another PS. I don't know with all of the talk
in these forums which PS is actually decent, although I will concede that PC Power and Cooling have an excellent rep- I just don't feel
the need to spend $275 for a PS unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[F4810]

If you look in your manual the 4 pin aux connector that goes into the mobo near the CPU is on one rail rated as 12v x 15amps. Everything else runs off the 12v x 18amp rail which includes the ATX connector and all the molexs etc.

What people are saying is that the 18amp rail is not enough for 2 video cards, hard drives, part power of the motherboard etc. What I am trying to find out is what exactly the 4 pin aux connector powers on the mobo, as if it powers the CPU, RAM and most of the mobo devices then this would take most the strain off the 18 amp rail.

 

[Algere]

Originally posted by: cleanerPA
I have an Antec Neopower 480, which is a dual rail PS- is the ATX connector using one rail and the peripherals connected via
4-pin Molex connectors going to the other rail? What about the 4-pin aux. connector?

According to the Noisetaker 2.0 manual which may or may not be related to the Neopower, The 20/24 pin & the 4-pin aux. connectors (assuming it's the plug w/ the 2x2 pin config.) share the same +12V rail & the peripherals utilize the other +12V rail.

 

[F4810]

Originally posted by: Algere

Originally posted by: cleanerPA
I have an Antec Neopower 480, which is a dual rail PS- is the ATX connector using one rail and the peripherals connected via
4-pin Molex connectors going to the other rail? What about the 4-pin aux. connector?

According to the Noisetaker 2.0 manual which may or may not be related to the Neopower, The 20/24 pin & the 4-pin aux. connectors (assuming it's the plug w/ the 2x2 pin config.) share the same +12V rail & the peripherals utilize the other +12V rail.

The neopower is different then. Can we attach photos as I can show you a picture of the relevant page in the manual.