power supplies; RAID?

[limitedX]

hi all, my first post here 🙂 i'm kind of inexperienced when it comes to building computers, so i'd like appreciate some help from this great community.

my first question is about power supplies: i've narrowed my choices down to three- PC Power and Cooling Turbo-Cool 510, Seasonic S12-600, or OCZ Powerstream 600W. i've read through most of the PSU posts and reviews/articles i could find, but hardly anyone ever mentions the noise. the thing is, i want to build my computer to be quiet so i can leave it on at night in my room while being able to sleep 😉 seasonic is definitely at the top of the list in terms of noise, but the cables are rather short and they aren't sleeved so it may be a problem. i guess i'm basically asking if the PCP&C is as loud as people claim? what are your thoughts on this?

second question about RAID: specifically about RAID 0 and WD Raptors. i'm pretty much a multitasker, i like to download alot and play alot of games, watch movies, etc. so i've recently heard of RAID 0 and i thought "hey, maybe i could give that a try" considering its ability to speed up response times. and now the downside with the damage of 1 HD ruining everything, i was kind of skeptical as well. i read on the forums here that the raptor's MTBF is a couple million hours- does this make it particularly "safe" (although nothing is 100% failure free) to run them in RAID 0 without taking the chance of losing all my data? or should i not consider RAID at all?

thanks all for taking the time to read this, appreciate it! 😀

 

[Matthias99]

my first question is about power supplies: i've narrowed my choices down to three- PC Power and Cooling Turbo-Cool 510, Seasonic S12-600, or OCZ Powerstream 600W.

All WAY WAY overkill unless you're building some kind of monstrous server or you want to run a super-high-end SLI/Crossfire graphics setup and overclock like crazy.

Seasonic's PSUs are very quiet and efficient and have high build quality. PCP&C PSUs are built like tanks, but are not quiet or efficient.

RAID0 will probably not do much for the kind of tasks you are talking about. It doubles STR, which helps mostly working with really big files.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

^^ dont say its overkill unless u have a high end system.
if you want high power and quiet i'd suggest looking for a psu with a 120mm fan, 80mm fans just dont cut it for noise and cooling at all. the ocz and pcpc both have 80mm fans running at high speed. i dont recommend those for quietness, but i DO own a FSP fortron epsilon 600 and can tell you that it is low in noise. i would have gotten the seasonic custom sleeved by performance-pcs.com but my DFImb isn't compatible with seasonic psus so i went with the next best thing, view the signature.

 

[Luckyboy1]

For noise, amoust the ones chosen, it's an easy choice; go for the OCZ.

However, this kid on this site I'm chattin' with today had a...

http://www.case-mod.com/store/silversto...w-modular-sli-power-supply-p-1785.html

deliverd today and says believe it or not, 24 bd iunder laod!

 

[Howard]

What's your system config? No point getting a high-power PSU if your rig doesn't need it.

 

[alimoalem]

i'm sorry to say limitedX but i don't think u did enough research. if you're getting 2 74gig raptors, a single 150gb performs better than 2 74gig raptors in RAID. plus, the performance increase is nowhere near worth it and i really doubt you would see any performance differences. and as Matthias99 said, you really won't see a performance increase for the things u do

about the power supplies, i'll just quote Matthias99:

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Seasonic's PSUs are very quiet and efficient and have high build quality. PCP&C PSUs are built like tanks, but are not quiet or efficient.

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Good for you for looking at quality PSUs. I honestly don't believe that being a bit excessive on the PSU ever hurt anyone. I've had way too many power issues before, so I make sure I've got plenty of power. And about RAID 0, if these are your only hds in the system, I wouldn't advise it. The performance boosts aren't that incredible, and there are some risks involved. If you don't need it, don't worry about it. The situation might be a bit different if you had another drive for storage, etc...

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Fullmetal Chocobo
I honestly don't believe that being a bit excessive on the PSU ever hurt anyone. I've had way too many power issues before, so I make sure I've got plenty of power.

Doesn't hurt, but it costs a bit more both in the short and long run. A PSU sized more appropriately for the load will be more efficient [than one that isn't, all else equal].

 

[Luckyboy1]

those efficiencies are at full load and are less clear model by model as you idle down. Having a robust power supply will allow it to run at alower percentage of total capacity and therefore, at least in theory, and in my real life results, will not degrade as fast over time and as a result, be chaeper. Aslo, all those funny fan burnouts and parts failures that seem to plague the just enough crowd seem not to visit the stout power supply crowd nearly as much or if at all. Is this luck? Maybe, but I think not.

I've had a 0 RAID array of 2, 36 BG Raptors for almost 3 years now without a single drive related failure. Of course, I pay attention to case coolong and power issues, but I guess that's just another thing that's got nothin' to do with anything!😉

 

[limitedX]

thanks everyone for the responses; actually yes i'm making i guess a high end system since i need it to last me about 4 years and still be able to crank out great performance with more hardcore technology. some generalized specs: AMD athlon FX60, hoping to get my hands on some geforce 7900GTs/GTXs, creative x-fi platinum, 2gb corsair xms. actually i calculated it out using the extreme psu calculator and i got a 100% peak utilization of 536 watts. so i figured that i'd go to 600W for future security.

Originally posted by: alimoalem
i'm sorry to say limitedX but i don't think u did enough research. if you're getting 2 74gig raptors, a single 150gb performs better than 2 74gig raptors in RAID. plus, the performance increase is nowhere near worth it and i really doubt you would see any performance differences.

actually i was kind of figuring to go with 36GB raptors in raid with an extra storage drive, the new 150GB raptor is just so expensive and there are so many mixed opinions on whether it's worth it or not. once again, i'm new to raid so i appreciate the comment.

also, my hard drive configuration would be one primary or raid (raptors) and a large storage drive to house all my junk since theyre so cheap now 😉

basically, i just want a psu thats quiet but i know will keep my components stable and secure with minimum fear of destroyed components; i've heard very good things about these particular brands, so i just wanted to see what you all thought.
cheers~🙂

 

[Luckyboy1]

I often wonder why people NEED a C: drive that is bigger than 60 gigs or so! I have two, 36 GB 10,000 RPM Raptors in a 0 RAID array and that gives me a yield the way I have it striped and chunked just under 70 GB's of usable capacity.

Now, there are slight performance increases by going the 74 GB Raptor route, but for the money vs. slight benefit, I'd say not worth the cost by a long shot for most folks.

I advise a couple of the 36 GB types as the C: drive in a 0 RAID array and store all your videos and large files on a large and cheap 7,200 rpm drive.

Remember, 1 RAID will yeild slightly less than 1 drive's capacity and in my opinion, is of little benefit for most of us. A regular backing up of important stuff is always advised even if you have the 1 Array.

Remember, you need two drives to do RAID and you will only be as capable as the slowest and smallest drive, so it is best to get both at once.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
those efficiencies are at full load and are less clear model by model as you idle down.

Quoted efficiency is usually best-case, not at 100% load. Unless the manufacturer specifically says that's what the numbers are.

Having a robust power supply will allow it to run at alower percentage of total capacity and therefore, at least in theory, and in my real life results, will not degrade as fast over time and as a result, be chaeper.

I have seen very, very little to support this idea. Most power supplies are built to run at least relatively close to their rated maximum output (80-90%) for maximum efficiency, and are built to run at that output level indefinitely.

Aslo, all those funny fan burnouts and parts failures that seem to plague the just enough crowd seem not to visit the stout power supply crowd nearly as much or if at all. Is this luck? Maybe, but I think not.

They tend to visit the 'cheap' power supply crowd a lot more. 'Just enough' for even most relatively high-end systems is in the 300-400W range. Unless you plan on lots and lots of hard drives, super-high-end SLI, or massive OCing, 500+W PSUs are just overkill.

actually i calculated it out using the extreme psu calculator and i got a 100% peak utilization of 536 watts. so i figured that i'd go to 600W for future security.

That thing is pretty high on some of its numbers. Although if you are planning on high-end SLI, I would recommend at least a 450-480W PSU with plenty of capacity on the +12V rail.

Personally, I would recommend the Seasonic S12-500, as it is very efficient, very quiet, and not as overpriced as the PCP&C. The S12-600 improves only marginally on to the +12V rail amperage. I have seen little on that OCZ, but I would be concerned about noise with an 80mm fan design. Silent PC Review does great PSU reviews, and they really like the Seasonics.

actually i was kind of figuring to go with 36GB raptors in raid with an extra storage drive, the new 150GB raptor is just so expensive and there are so many mixed opinions on whether it's worth it or not. once again, i'm new to raid so i appreciate the comment.

The 150GB Raptor is a lot faster than the 36GB ones. Performance on the 74GB Raptors was noticeably better than on the 36GB ones, and the 150GB model is another step up from the 74GB ones. From what you have described, I do not feel RAID0 would benefit you much. Just buy a single 74GB Raptor instead of two 36GB ones if you don't want to go for the 150GB model.

 

[Luckyboy1]

The 150GB Raptor is a lot faster than the 36GB ones. Performance on the 74GB Raptors was noticeably better than on the 36GB ones, and the 150GB model is another step up from the 74GB ones. From what you have described, I do not feel RAID0 would benefit you much. Just buy a single 74GB Raptor instead of two 36GB ones if you don't want to go for the 150GB model.

And all this extra speed has what total affect on the system as a whole? It's usually of diminishing return.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

mathias99, why dont you read up a little more on power supplies and then come back. maybe if u had some first hand expierience with some big power consumption parts you would understand. if you had a $2k system with 2 x1900xtx or 2x 7900gtx and some raptors and an fx-60. would u run that system on a 400-450 watt power supply? highly doubt it. with that system i'd like to ensure reliability and no bottlenecks on my whole system due to power supply. if you're going for a high end system, you def should go with a high end reliable psu. and btw there ARE good powerful AND quiet psu.
on a side note: mathias99, in the link to your 'rig' the seasonic 300 watt isn't the quietest NOR the most efficient. i might be wrong about this but i'm pretty sure the quietest psus are those with a reputable brand name and can run fanless. also i think the most efficient psu would be the PCpower & cooling 1k running at about 300-400 watts actual usage. your seasonic 300 might be efficient up to what, 80-100 watts? then the power rating drops from then on

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
those efficiencies are at full load

Many power supply reviews test efficiency at different loads.

Aslo, all those funny fan burnouts and parts failures that seem to plague the just enough crowd seem not to visit the stout power supply crowd nearly as much or if at all. Is this luck? Maybe, but I think not.

This ever happen to a Fortron AX450-PN?

I've had a 0 RAID array of 2, 36 BG Raptors for almost 3 years now without a single drive related failure. Of course, I pay attention to case coolong and power issues, but I guess that's just another thing that's got nothin' to do with anything!😉

Why do you have such a grating attitude?

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
The 150GB Raptor is a lot faster than the 36GB ones. Performance on the 74GB Raptors was noticeably better than on the 36GB ones, and the 150GB model is another step up from the 74GB ones. From what you have described, I do not feel RAID0 would benefit you much. Just buy a single 74GB Raptor instead of two 36GB ones if you don't want to go for the 150GB model.

And all this extra speed has what total affect on the system as a whole? It's usually of diminishing return.

Hey, 7200RPM is pretty close to 10000RPM, so those 7200RPM drives are good enough... Then again, 2MB cache isn't that much slower than 8MB or 16MB, so let's go to 2MB cache... And SATA offers no tangible performance benefits for a home PC over PATA, so why bother going SATA?

Please use the [.q.][./q.] (remove periods) tags when quoting somebody, or click Quote underneath their post box.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

i think the two of you guys are just talking abotu different things.. i agree that 2 x 36gb raptors might have more flexibility but i also agree that 1 x 74 or 1 x 150 in that case would be more reliable. 2 x the hard drives = 2 x the errors, data loss, hard drive failures, money spent on another hard drive.
in my opinion, if u can affterd 2 x 36 raptors i'd rather get 1 x 74 or 1 x 150. raid 0 just doesn't convince me enough to buy two hard drives for the space of one, but doesn't give u twice the performance, or any performance at all

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
i might be wrong about this but i'm pretty sure the quietest psus are those with a reputable brand name and can run fanless.

Yeah, the quietest PSUs are fanless, but noise level has nothing to do with brand name and has everything to do with design.

also i think the most efficient psu would be the PCpower & cooling 1k running at about 300-400 watts actual usage.

Got hard numbers?

your seasonic 300 might be efficient up to what, 80-100 watts? then the power rating drops from then on

Matthias99 is incorrect regarding his claim. The maximum efficiency SPCR measured is 77% between 90-150W. However, it still may be the quiestest of the non-hybrid fan-cooled PSUs.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: limitedX
thanks everyone for the responses; actually yes i'm making i guess a high end system since i need it to last me about 4 years and still be able to crank out great performance with more hardcore technology. some generalized specs: AMD athlon FX60, hoping to get my hands on some geforce 7900GTs/GTXs, creative x-fi platinum, 2gb corsair xms. actually i calculated it out using the extreme psu calculator and i got a 100% peak utilization of 536 watts. so i figured that i'd go to 600W for future security.

To be safe, I would go with a PSU that provided at least 40A on the 12V rails (my calcs give 44A as a safe number, but you'll rarely reach 40A, IMHO). None of the PSUs you mentioned can do that.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
mathias99, why dont you read up a little more on power supplies and then come back.

I know plenty about power supplies, thanks.

maybe if u had some first hand expierience with some big power consumption parts you would understand.

Because owning expensive, high-power-draw parts magically makes you know about power supplies? Um, no.

if you had a $2k system with 2 x1900xtx or 2x 7900gtx and some raptors and an fx-60. would u run that system on a 400-450 watt power supply? highly doubt it.

You probably could run such a system on a 450W PSU, if it was a name-brand one and it had enough capacity on the +12V rail. X1900XTXs use about 130W each; an FX-60 is about another 110W. If you assume another 100W for the drives, MB, etc., you'd be looking at about 450W of power -- but this is a pretty extreme case. The problem is that a setup like this puts at least 350-400W of load on the +12V rails (so a good 35-36A of capacity would be needed), and for that reason you would need a 500-600W PSU.

on a side note: mathias99, in the link to your 'rig' the seasonic 300 watt isn't the quietest NOR the most efficient.

Their PSUs are consistently the quietest ones with fans, and so far have only been beaten in efficiency by a few of the fanless models.

From SPCR's review on the S12-500/600:

While they do not plumb the quiet depths the way the original S12-430 did, the 500 and 600 are nearly as quiet at low to medium load and can take on any PSU of similar power capacity without any acoustic handicap. In fact, the reverse is true: There is not a single PSU we know of that can produce so much stable power as the S12-600 and stay as quiet. At the more likely loads of <250W, the noise level stays well in the mid-20s (in dBA@1m), which is competitive with the majority of quiet PSUs.

i might be wrong about this but i'm pretty sure the quietest psus are those with a reputable brand name and can run fanless.

Fanless PSUs are obviously quieter, but they require good case airflow (which requires more fans somewhere else). And Seasonic isn't a "reputable brand name"?

also i think the most efficient psu would be the PCpower & cooling 1k running at about 300-400 watts actual usage. your seasonic 300 might be efficient up to what, 80-100 watts? then the power rating drops from then on

How about some real numbers instead of random speculation?

Seasonic's new 300W "80 Plus" unit is 80+% efficient at all power outputs up to 300W.

The S12-430 had a minimum efficiency of 75%.

The S12-500/600 showed a minumum of 75% efficiency (at a very low load), and a maximum of 82% in the 200-300W range.

Oh, and that Super Tornado 300W I have? 75% minimum efficiency, even at 300W. I actually haven't updated my rig link recently; I have an S12-430 in there, because I'm planning on some upgrades in the near future.

I seriously doubt the PCP&C units are anywhere near that good. They're just not built with efficiency or quiet operation in mind. They're built like tanks, but they're not quiet or efficient.