Power steering pump for my 95 Trooper: risk and longevity

[BonzaiDuck]

I had already started a thread on my Trooper, gratified for the response. I'm still a bit OCD obsessive about it after renewing the entire suspension last year.

To recap, the odometer has 185,000, and the engine had never been overhauled. Word from smog-test guy and mechanics: "Don't do anything to this engine! It's perfect!" The transmission has 60,000 miles. Components like the alternator, water pump and radiator have 27,000 miles.

Over the last few months, after replacing the high-pressure power-steering hose which was determined to be leaking, I had put drop pans under the Trooper and noticed what looked like transmission fluid (Dexron III) -- perhaps a thimbleful after letting the car sit for two hours. I couldn't locate the leak. I thought it was the transmission cooling lines to the radiator, and the wisdom suggests that the radiator could be leaking. Eventually, I took it to the new mechanic.

The leak was coming from a threaded fitting for a power-steering hose. Mechanic told me it was not threaded properly. The repair shop that installed the new hose last October had installed the new hose to stop a leak, and the created a new one. The leak may have begun just after the hose installation.

So -- to show my cluelessness -- I thought PS fluid was a light lemonade or piss color. I had been fretting over the transmission hoses and pan all this time, and maybe I'd topped up the PS reservoir once with the lemonade PS fluid. Now I fully understand that the Power Steering pump and reservoir on the Trooper takes Dexron II (and III may be a substitute).

The steering had never malfunctioned, but it would groan sometimes when pulling the car out of the garage while turning the wheel. After fixing the leak yesterday, steering is normal -- perfect I could say -- and everything seems great. But I have begun to worry that the PS pump could go bad, and read online advice that suggests that if the pump seizes, the fan-belt would be damaged, and I could even have damage to the waterpump -- leading even to radiator or alternator damage.

The PS Pump has 185,000 miles of wear on it. I'm wondering if I just shouldn't take it into the shop over the next few months and have it replaced. Any thoughts?

Also, what signs do I look for that the pump is going south, so I could stave off disaster before worse things happen?

I was planning to buy a new car or recent model-year used "pre-owned" Suburu Forester as early as next spring. After I had the PS leak fixed this week, I began to think I could put off buying another car indefinitely. This 24-year-old "Pooper" could last another ten years. If not ten, then five.

 

[deadlyapp]

I think you're overreacting regarding the "What-ifs". If the PS pump fully seizes (which it's not likely to if you monitor the liquid levels occasionally), then yes you'll probably lose a belt, but that's like a $10 part and you'll immediately notice the loss of power steering and be able to shut the car off before you have any possibility of damaging anything else. More than likely, if the PS pump seizes, then the belt will just start to slip around the pulley and you'll smell a terrible burning rubber and will shut down before you ever get to the point of fully blowing the belt.

If the belt blows, there's no way it can damage the water pump and certainly no way you'd damage the radiator or alternator for the same reason. If you stop powering these things via the belt, you won't magically destroy them. And more likely than not, your water pump is crankshaft driven, so you'd just lose your accessory systems by shredding the PS belt.

 

[jlee]

If it's not leaking and the pump isn't whining anymore, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

This 24-year-old "Pooper" could last another ten years. If not ten, then five.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Keep it on the road forever.

 

[Sgt. York]

If you are OCD and it keeps you awake at night, you should change it.

 

[Rifter]

If its leaking from the threads on a fitting id just take the hose off put some teflon tape on the threads and put the hose back on. Should stop the leak, then run it till pump dies.

 

[mindless1]

... And more likely than not, your water pump is crankshaft driven, so you'd just lose your accessory systems by shredding the PS belt.

Is this an Isuzu thing? I'd hardly call it more likely than not that it's crackshaft driven, that had to be pretty rare on trucks and SUVs of that era... and looking it up, both engines available in '95 look to have belt driven water pumps.

 

[jlee]

Is this an Isuzu thing? I'd hardly call it more likely than not that it's crackshaft driven, that had to be pretty rare on trucks and SUVs of that era... and looking it up, both engines available in '95 look to have belt driven water pumps.

What drives that belt?

A timing belt driven water pump / oil pump and an accessory belt driven power steering pump, alternator, and AC compressor is hardly uncommon.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

All good comments.

Timing belt has another 27,000 miles left before the recommended 60,000 miles between replacement. The timing belt had actually broken once after the waterpump seized up; I think that's when I replaced the waterpump and alternator. I THINK all of the belts are driven by the crankshaft, with a pulley behind the cooling fan. But then again, if the damaged waterpump caused the timing belt to break, I'm wrong about this. Or would I not be wrong?

There is a bit more to this story, though, which is why I'm OCD about it. My mechanic of 15 years, now retired, was in partnership with a Japanese-American who was less-than-honest with customers. He was difficult to talk to -- hard to understand. Some four years ago, I'd asked them to look over the entire car and find anything that would eventually require work. Mitsuo came back saying I had an oil leak at the rear mainseal. That was hardly anything, and a bottle of Blue Devil cured it. He had also said that my steering gearbox was leaking badly. I hadn't noticed a problem with steering, but I asked his partner, who suggested "fix it when it bothers you."

There was nothing freaking wrong with the steering gear! It was the high-pressure PS hose that was leaking! If I'd known that, I would've had it replaced immediately! So I'd go 2,500 miles to the next annual maintenance visit. Occasionally I'd top up the PS reservoir (with the wrong fluid -- should've used Dexron II or III). Never paid much attention. Steering still seemed to work fine, but it would groan at very low speeds while turning -- backing out of the garage, for instance.

All these last four months, I'd been thinking I had a tranny leak. I'm wondering how long that PS pump went without sufficient fluid. That's what bothers me, because that's the only other bolt-on part attached to the engine that has 185,000 miles of use on it.

Anyway, I checked online. Replacement remanufactured PS pumps are made by an outfit named Cardone; another brand is Mavel Reman. The online prices range between $140 Cardone to $190 for the Mavel. I drove by the repair shop of my original mechanic now with new owners and mechanic staff -- today. Asked for an estimate on replacing the PS Pump. It's less than $300. Told them I'd revisit the issue when I'm in for an oil change in Aug or Sept.

Again, thanks for the advice and input. I'll read back through them again. $23,000 over 17 years for an SUV that would've cost me $30,000 new in 2002. I could die of old age before I really need to buy a new car. So I'm thinking -- why not replace an old part? I have to think about it.

 

[mindless1]

What drives that belt?

A timing belt driven water pump / oil pump and an accessory belt driven power steering pump, alternator, and AC compressor is hardly uncommon.

It's far less common than using the same belt that power steering/etc used at the time.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

OK . . . . The larges concentric set of pulley-wheels is lowest on the engine, and I assume therefore crankshaft-driven. This includes the PS pump, AC and waterpump -- and the radiator fan.

My OCD anxiety derives from some online blogs and advisories about PS pumps, or how a pump that seizes can cause collateral damage. But the input I've had from posters here suggests I should "just drive it." I would think a PS pump is a relatively simple mechanical device.

The other issue also involves a sense that repair shops find justifications to sell service. We changed and upgraded to platinum spark plugs yesterday. Fixing the PS leak was secondary, an extra $100 and a little more time.

The plugs are set deep through wells from the valve covers -- three on each side. Mechanic suggested I had a valve-cover-gasket leak, causing oil to seep into the exterior wells with the upper ends of the plugs which mate with the spark-plug wires. There are six O-rings that come with a valve-cover gasket kit, which are supposed to seal these spark-plug wells.

The plug anode and cathode on the old plugs are bone-dry and rust-colored, so I cannot see how there has been any problem with any valve-cover gasket leaks. I've never had any indication of spark-plug misfire. the only reason I wanted to change out the plugs is the mileage on the old ones -- or 47,000 miles -- and the possibility that the old plugs could become frozen in their threads. Chump-change, change-over from Iridium to Platinum, and chance to test the wires etc. -- which are fine.

I know that I can take my torque-wrench and test the ten or eleven valve-cover bolts. As long as my attentions don't squish the valve-cover main-gasket so that it protrudes from the cover, I should probably do no harm. I found the torque settings in the factory shop manual.

They would ordinarily want $500 to replace the valve-cover gaskets on either side of the V6, and a V6 replacement is considered difficult for your DIY mechanic or someone trying to be one. But the existing valve-cover-gaskets were installed within the last 39,000 miles, although that also means 12 years ago. I'd think the mileage would be a better measure of age. No long trips during all that time.

 

[jlee]

It's far less common than using the same belt that power steering/etc used at the time.

Every Toyota engine I've owned has had a timing belt driven water pump - from 1986 to 2007: 4AGE, 1ZZFE, 5VZFE, 3SGTE, 2UZFE, as did my Subaru with its EJ255. My small block Chevy motors (CTS-V and Z06, both with the LS6) have accessory belt driven water pumps, but those engines are also devoid of timing belts.

If the engine has a timing belt, it's significantly likely that the timing belt also drives the water pump. The timing belt is obviously driven by the crank pulley, thereby the crankshaft. Come to think of it, I don't believe I have ever worked on a car that had a timing belt that did not also drive the water pump. They certainly may exist, but I've yet to see one.

Anyway, all accessory belts are ultimately driven by the crankshaft so I may have misunderstood deadlyapp's post.

OK . . . . The larges concentric set of pulley-wheels is lowest on the engine, and I assume therefore crankshaft-driven. This includes the PS pump, AC and waterpump -- and the radiator fan.

My OCD anxiety derives from some online blogs and advisories about PS pumps, or how a pump that seizes can cause collateral damage. But the input I've had from posters here suggests I should "just drive it." I would think a PS pump is a relatively simple mechanical device.

The other issue also involves a sense that repair shops find justifications to sell service. We changed and upgraded to platinum spark plugs yesterday. Fixing the PS leak was secondary, an extra $100 and a little more time.

The plugs are set deep through wells from the valve covers -- three on each side. Mechanic suggested I had a valve-cover-gasket leak, causing oil to seep into the exterior wells with the upper ends of the plugs which mate with the spark-plug wires. There are six O-rings that come with a valve-cover gasket kit, which are supposed to seal these spark-plug wells.

The plug anode and cathode on the old plugs are bone-dry and rust-colored, so I cannot see how there has been any problem with any valve-cover gasket leaks. I've never had any indication of spark-plug misfire. the only reason I wanted to change out the plugs is the mileage on the old ones -- or 47,000 miles -- and the possibility that the old plugs could become frozen in their threads. Chump-change, change-over from Iridium to Platinum, and chance to test the wires etc. -- which are fine.

I know that I can take my torque-wrench and test the ten or eleven valve-cover bolts. As long as my attentions don't squish the valve-cover main-gasket so that it protrudes from the cover, I should probably do no harm. I found the torque settings in the factory shop manual.

They would ordinarily want $500 to replace the valve-cover gaskets on either side of the V6, and a V6 replacement is considered difficult for your DIY mechanic or someone trying to be one. But the existing valve-cover-gaskets were installed within the last 39,000 miles, although that also means 12 years ago. I'd think the mileage would be a better measure of age. No long trips during all that time.

If the belt that drives the water pump is exposed, it's likely an accessory belt. Timing belts are generally covered. How many visible belts does your engine have?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Every Toyota engine I've owned has had a timing belt driven water pump - from 1986 to 2007: 4AGE, 1ZZFE, 5VZFE, 3SGTE, 2UZFE, as did my Subaru with its EJ255. My small block Chevy motors (CTS-V and Z06, both with the LS6) have accessory belt driven water pumps, but those engines are also devoid of timing belts.

If the engine has a timing belt, it's significantly likely that the timing belt also drives the water pump. The timing belt is obviously driven by the crank pulley, thereby the crankshaft. Come to think of it, I don't believe I have ever worked on a car that had a timing belt that did not also drive the water pump. They certainly may exist, but I've yet to see one.

Anyway, all accessory belts are ultimately driven by the crankshaft so I may have misunderstood deadlyapp's post.



If the belt that drives the water pump is exposed, it's likely an accessory belt. Timing belts are generally covered. How many visible belts does your engine have?

That's right -- I've never seen an exposed timing belt. There are three serpentine belts. One drives the PS pump. One other belt drives the radiator fan and another bolt-on component -- either the AC or the alternator. I'll identify which is which from the shop manual later. And so now I've determined that the water pump is under the timing belt cover and therefore driven by that belt. If something happened to the PS pump and its belt, it couldn't do anything of collateral damage to the waterpump or timing belt.

I'm just not my old self anymore at 71 years. I should've checked the shop manual and sorted all this out -- years ago. I just lost interest in taking care of my own car after I retired, and gave it over to a repair shop or mechanic.

Just the labor costs alone in the estimate for replacing the PS pump suggest that none of these other items need be removed; they should be able to leave the PS pump belt on the car, and simply loosen the PS pump bolts to remove it. At least, that's my impression at this point.

And -- as I said -- the power-steering seems to work noiselessly now that we've stopped the leak of Dexron II and replaced the high-pressure hose.

I've never had a car this old, and I've only had one other car for 17 years. One more year with the Trooper and I will break that record.

Of all the vehicles I've owned, this is the one of which I've learned the least in terms of how things fit together and operate. And despite that fact, it's rock-solid and likely to last another five or ten years.

Heh! The San Gabriels and San Bernardino Mountains are covered white today -- probably down to 2,000 feet. I almost want to go up to Idyllwild and give the 4WD a workout, but I'd need to take chains. I'd have to convince the rest of the fam-damn-ily. So -- I guess not. I have to be home for two disabled older people, so it's either all, or none.

 

[mindless1]

Every Toyota engine I've owned has had a timing belt driven water pump - from 1986 to 2007: 4AGE, 1ZZFE, 5VZFE, 3SGTE, 2UZFE, as did my Subaru with its EJ255. My small block Chevy motors (CTS-V and Z06, both with the LS6) have accessory belt driven water pumps, but those engines are also devoid of timing belts.

If the engine has a timing belt, it's significantly likely that the timing belt also drives the water pump.

Okay but old (circa '95) trucks and SUVs that use a timing belt at all are in the minority.

 

[jlee]

That's right -- I've never seen an exposed timing belt. There are three serpentine belts. One drives the PS pump. One other belt drives the radiator fan and another bolt-on component -- either the AC or the alternator. I'll identify which is which from the shop manual later. And so now I've determined that the water pump is under the timing belt cover and therefore driven by that belt. If something happened to the PS pump and its belt, it couldn't do anything of collateral damage to the waterpump or timing belt.

I'm just not my old self anymore at 71 years. I should've checked the shop manual and sorted all this out -- years ago. I just lost interest in taking care of my own car after I retired, and gave it over to a repair shop or mechanic.

Just the labor costs alone in the estimate for replacing the PS pump suggest that none of these other items need be removed; they should be able to leave the PS pump belt on the car, and simply loosen the PS pump bolts to remove it. At least, that's my impression at this point.

And -- as I said -- the power-steering seems to work noiselessly now that we've stopped the leak of Dexron II and replaced the high-pressure hose.

I've never had a car this old, and I've only had one other car for 17 years. One more year with the Trooper and I will break that record.

Of all the vehicles I've owned, this is the one of which I've learned the least in terms of how things fit together and operate. And despite that fact, it's rock-solid and likely to last another five or ten years.

Heh! The San Gabriels and San Bernardino Mountains are covered white today -- probably down to 2,000 feet. I almost want to go up to Idyllwild and give the 4WD a workout, but I'd need to take chains. I'd have to convince the rest of the fam-damn-ily. So -- I guess not. I have to be home for two disabled older people, so it's either all, or none.

Power steering pumps whine if they're low on fluid. As it's sorted now, I wouldn't worry about it anymore - should be good to go.

 

[squirrel dog]

Power steering fluid can be changed by you with a turkey baster . Buy a new one($2) find correct reservoir for power steering , using the baster , get out as much fluid as you can , fill to full mark , drive around neighborhood , come home and repeat process . After the second drain and fill you should have most of the old fluid out .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

JLEE, Squirrel Dog, and all --
So -- yes-- you are correct. I got some additional opinions. The last car I had with PS was a 64 Chevy. No -- it was a 72 Volvo (and Yuk! I learned to hate that car in a hurry). The prevailing wisdom says that a leak in the high-pressure hose would deplete the reservoir, but there would still be fluid in the pump. I'm going to file away the estimate (~$280) to replace the pump, tidy up the car's appearance, and drive the sucker. A few loose ends, but it's still nearly perfect.

 

[squirrel dog]

you have chosen …. Wisely .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

you have chosen …. Wisely .

Even if I thought it myself, it is appearing to be a good choice beyond expectations, although my maintenance routine and willingness to replace aging parts contributed to my joyous state of affairs. Now a fourth mechanic or shop owner has offered an unreserved belief that the engine will go another 115,000 miles without need to overhaul, and some people say they can make it to 500,000. GM built the V-6 for these cars. I've been using chemicals in the gas and crankcase. Just fuel injector cleaner or Seafoam Top-Engine. There is a procedure for using Seafoam or Bardahl aerosols to clean the EGR valve without taking it off the car. But before even attempting to do that, the several tanks of gas each with a little bottle of Lucas additive seem to have cured the symptom that would suggest the EGR valve needs cleaning or replacement.

I really won't need another vehicle, possibly a new one, for as long as I want to drive this sucker. I also discovered that people have held on to old Troopers, and they can still be had for a couple thousand but in good condition. I think there is some sort of cult surrounding them.

I'm going to spend a few extra ducats on it. I said before: it's a keeper.