Power consumption

[VirtualLarry]

I used to use a Q9300 @ 3.0, and a GTX460 1GB.

Then I upgraded to a Phenom II X6 1045T @ 3.51, and dual GTX460 1GB cards in SLI.

But power consumption was too high.

So I swapped to my low-power E-350 (Zacate, 1.6Ghz dual-core) mini-ITX rig for a while.

Even under full DC load, on both cores and the IGP's SPs, power consumption was 47W according to a KAW. Not bad.

But listening to internet radio, and web browsing, was painful. The internet radio would skip every once in a while, and web page scrolling was just laggy and bad, with the DC running in the background. Clearly, that rig was underpowered for what I wanted to use it for.

So I'm back to my Q9300 @ 3.0 and a single GTX460.

Idle power consumption is 94-140W, browsing web pages.

Load power consumption (full CPU DC load) is 145W.

Load power consumption (full CPU and GPU DC load) is 230-250W.

While this amount of power isn't horrible, is it possible I could do better?

I guess if I were truely interested in just web browsing, and was willing to cut out the DC, I could let Win7 put the system into S3 sleep mode, which draws 5W, when I'm not using it.

I realize that idle power consumption isn't great, for C2D/C2Q-era chips, due to lack of power-gating.

But I recall seeing some charts showing that C2D is actually MORE power-efficient at load than newer chips.

So I'm hesitant to upgrade, if there's nothing really better at load.

AMD CPUs seem to actually be worse as far as power-consumption at load. (At least, Phenom II X6 and BD FX CPUs are. I don't know about LLano.)

What say you, forum?

Edit: If I were to upgrade, this is what I'm looking at:

ASRock B75M-ITX LGA 1155 Intel B75 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157310

Intel Core i5-3450S Ivy Bridge 2.8GHz (3.5GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 65W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 2500 BX80637I53450S
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116507

The only downside is, it seems like most of the mini-ITX S1155 boards, only have two RAM slots. But this one has a single SATA6G port for my primary SSD (already own a 240GB SATA6G SSD), and it has front-panel USB3.0, which is nice.

Edit: I looked at the mobo manual, B75 chipset apparently doesn't support RAID. I was hoping for a little RAID-1 (mirroring) action, so I could have an SSD in the SATA6G port, and then a Blu-Ray burner, and two 1TB HDs in RAID-1 for my data. Does anyone know if you can set up a software RAID-1 under Win7, or is that limited to server OSes?



I would need a decent, small, mini-ITX case, with front-panel USB3.0 too. Perhaps one of the Lian-Li aluminum cubes.

Would I gain any performance, going from a 3.0Ghz C2Q, to a 2.8Ghz IB? To me, it seems like a wash. If I keep my GTX460 in there, then load power consumption is only going to be, maybe 35W better than my current rig. (From a 95W CPU to a 65W CPU.) Which seems like it wouldn't be worth it at all.

Plus, I would want to upgrade to Haswell when it comes out, due to AVX2 support, for my distributed-computing tasks. (Which might allow me to get rid of the discrete video card.)

Edit: This case looks good.

LIAN LI PC-Q08A Silver Aluminum Mini-ITX Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811112266

Need to get an adapter cable to connect the USB3.0 cables on the Lian-Li.
http://www.amazon.com/Silverstone-Te.../dp/B005NGGKPU

Edit: Why not go for Blu-Ray and M-disc.
LG Black 12X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 12X DVD-RAM 10X BD-ROM 4MB Cache SATA 12X Super Multi Blue with 3D Playback & M-DISC Support WH12LS39 LightScribe Support - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136241

SeaSonic M12II 520 Bronze 520W ATX12V v2.3 / EPS 12V v2.91 SLI Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151093

 

[Zap]

You never seem to be able to make up your mind, can you? Didn't we go over this before, with previous generation CPUs?

While this amount of power isn't horrible, is it possible I could do better?

You can. Most of your gain would be under idle conditions, and of course having a higher powered GPU in there doesn't help.

But I recall seeing some charts showing that C2D is actually MORE power-efficient at load than newer chips.

Huh? How about looking at performance per watt? If both chips are drawing the same power, the newer chips do a lot more work. Then, they can go back to their super efficient idle state faster.

Would I gain any performance, going from a 3.0Ghz C2Q, to a 2.8Ghz IB? To me, it seems like a wash. If I keep my GTX460 in there, then load power consumption is only going to be, maybe 35W better than my current rig. (From a 95W CPU to a 65W CPU.) Which seems like it wouldn't be worth it at all.

You would gain performance. Heck, I'd almost say to not bother with low power versions. SPCR did a test back with Sandy Bridge on low power dual and quad core CPUs, and found that due to the extra performance, the CPUs returned to idle faster (they all idle the same) and thus overall power consumption was only a little bit more on the normal wattage CPUs.

SeaSonic M12II 520 Bronze 520W ATX12V v2.3 / EPS 12V v2.91 SLI Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817151093

An Ivy Bridge quad with a GTX 460 won't need that much power. Go for something lower wattage (to help with idle power efficiency) and higher efficiency.

450W Antec Earthwatts Platinum $106 shipped

450W Rosewill Capstone $63 shipped after coupon (listed on product page)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Except that I would be doing DC, so the CPU wouldn't ever be idle, for the most part.

So I would be looking at load power consumption, and things like Performance/watt, using "hurry up and return to idle" metrics, wouldn't apply.

And that 450W Platinum (Huh, I didn't know that there are EW Platinum PSUs), is basically almost twice the price of the modular SeaSonic I picked up.

If my load power consumption is 200W, would the plat really save all that much over the bronze, over the lifetime of the PSU?

Plat is like, what, 85% efficient? Even if it's 90% efficient, than that's 10% better efficiency for 200W, or 20W.

24 * 30 * 20W = 14.4KWh savings per month. At $0.15 per KWh, that's $2.25 savings per month.

The price difference for the PSUs, $60 versus $106, so $46.

It would take 20.4 months to break even. That's nearly two years. I might not even be using that rig two years from now, if Haswell comes out.

Plus, is that EW 450W Plat modular? I was thinking that the modular PSU would help with cable-management with the mini-ITX case.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

I would wait for the new bitfenjx prodigy to come out. You can fit a megahalm with pushpull fans

 

[Ken g6]

I would start by optimizing the system you have. I have a Core 2 Q9400. Alas, I bought the wrong mobo (H41) so I can't overclock, but in the summer I underclock to 2.0GHz and undervolt to 0.98V. Power consumption under load with onboard GPU drops to about 65W. And it's still way, way better than a Zacate. Otherwise I run at 2.66 GHz/1.14V.

Undervolting is a lot like overclocking. You set the speed, then lower the voltage to roughly the minimum where it's stable. (I then bump it up a notch or two.)

 

[sm625]

If your GPU is always loaded then you want a 28nm gpu. You'd save almost 100 watts at the same performance level. If you sell the 460 right away you're talking less than a year for the upgrade to pay for itself.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If your GPU is always loaded then you want a 28nm gpu. You'd save almost 100 watts at the same performance level. If you sell the 460 right away you're talking less than a year for the upgrade to pay for itself.

Well, that is a possibility. I would likely save even more power with a GPU swap, than a CPU/platform swap, wouldn't I?

The problem is, I don't want to spend $500 on a GTX680, my GTX460 1GB only cost me $180 when it first came out, for a WindForce model. Plus, GK104 is crippled heavily, compute-wise. So I was thinking of waiting for GK110, whenever that comes out. Hopefully NV won't gouge too much for it, and power/temps will be good.

The other possibility is an AMD card, but more DC projects seem to support NV than AMD.

 

[Ken g6]

GK104 is crippled heavily, compute-wise.

GK104 is crippled heavily, double-precision floating-point compute-wise. That means it's great at some tasks and terrible at others. Projects it should be good at include Folding@Home, PrimeGrid sieves, and Collatz. Projects it's not so good at include GPUGrid, MilkyWay, and PrimeGrid primality testing. Also, consider that the GTX660 should be out in a month or two at the $300 level.

Meanwhile, you could also try underclocking/undervolting your GPU cores and/or RAM. For some projects, like PrimeGrid sieves, the GPU RAM speed doesn't matter.

 

[ZeroRift]

Does anyone know if you can set up a software RAID-1 under Win7, or is that limited to server OSes?

Windows clients do support software RAID, though I have heard bad things about performance in the past (no recent experience).

Some starter info: link

Edit:
I don't know how you feel about gpu vendors, but AMD definitely has the advantage in compute and (I think) power consumption this generation.

 

[ElFenix]

undervolt your CPU if you haven't already done so. my Q8400 ran at about 1.05 volt load, iirc.

 

[Zap]

Except that I would be doing DC, so the CPU wouldn't ever be idle, for the most part.

Still, Ivy Bridge does more work per watt than Core 2 Quad, regardless of idle or load conditions.

Plat is like, what, 85% efficient? Even if it's 90% efficient, than that's 10% better efficiency for 200W, or 20W.

24 * 30 * 20W = 14.4KWh savings per month. At $0.15 per KWh, that's $2.25 savings per month.

The price difference for the PSUs, $60 versus $106, so $46.

It would take 20.4 months to break even.

At 20-50-100%
Bronze 82% 85% 82%
Gold 87% 90% 87%
Platinum 90% 92% 89%

You can get a Rosewill Capstone modular Gold 450W PSU for $80 shipped, or bite the bullet and get it non-modular for $63 shipped, and learn how to use cable ties.

If you already have a PSU, best way to save money is to use the PSU you already have. If you NEED to buy a new PSU anyways, then may as well pony up for higher efficiency.

BTW those Capstone PSUs have 5 year warranties.

I was thinking that the modular PSU would help with cable-management with the mini-ITX case.

"Right sizing" the PSU helps with cable management. You shouldn't have more than a few connectors to hide.

Srsly man, everything you want is opposite of each other. You want to save electricity but want to run DC. You want to save money but want more expensive modular PSUs.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Larry, keep what you have and upgrade when Haswell comes out. Since when, have you become a power maniac?

 

[krnmastersgt]

I don't recall any DC projects that generated many points in terms of CPU usage vs GPU usage. My F@H points skyrocketed with my GTX 460, took forever to get any points with my Q6600, so not really sure what relevance the CPU would have as just getting a super low power CPU + 2 GPUs to crunch generates a lot more points than a higher end CPU + GPU.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Still, Ivy Bridge does more work per watt than Core 2 Quad, regardless of idle or load conditions.

Srsly man, everything you want is opposite of each other. You want to save electricity but want to run DC. You want to save money but want more expensive modular PSUs.

I know, I'm torn in my choices. I thought I wanted to save power, when I went from the X6 1045T overclocked, to my E-350. But then I realized that I wanted to do DC, and then that made the E-350 rig way too sluggish (well, it was already kind of sluggish already), and then I hooked up my Q9300 again. So I could do DC, while also browsing the internet and listening to internet radio, and the DC wouldn't slow me down. And the power consumption (I'm guessing here, I didn't have the KAW available when I was still running the X6) of the Q9300 was better than the X6.

I guess, part of the problem is the electric bill has been pretty much $130-150 (Edit: Per month) for the last year. I could understand it, since I was heating my apt with computers during the winter. (I had to open the windows at times.) But I've cut down by two computers, and the power bill was still high. Which could be due to my A/C now, I suppose.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Ok, I just tried underclocking. Q9300 @ 1.5Ghz, 1.00v (BIOS). OCCT 64-bit linpack/GPU stress-test stable for ~10 minutes.

Unfortunately, that gives me a user experience much the same as the 1.6Ghz dual-core Zacate system. Web browsing is slower, and the internet radio skips. (Well, with OCCT running, will test longer with BOINC running and not OCCT.)

Edit: 190W with full CPU load and GPU load under BOINC.

I'm really not certain that the lesser user experience is worth slowing down the CPU that much just to save 60W. (I leave a few lights going all the time. I could just shut off some lights, and leave the CPU overclocked.)

Plus, I think I read somewhere (XBit?), that overclocking a CPU, without changing the voltage, can actually make the CPU more power-efficient.


Edit: Underclocking the GPU to 500Mhz, instead of 715Mhz core, lowered power consumption again slightly, down from 190W to 177W.

Screw this underclocking, I think I get better performance/watt at normal/overclocked clock speeds.

Edit: Went to restart Windows, and it hung. Except the mouse would still move around. But nothing else worked, the audio was stopped. I hit the hardware RESET button, and I got a repeated audio noise, and it didn't reset. Had to hold down the power-off button, and then it reset. Then I powered it off, and back on again, and it is now back to it's original overclock settings of 3.0Ghz at stock voltage.

 

[Zap]

I guess, part of the problem is the electric bill has been pretty much $130-150 for the last year.

My power bill is the same way. We are using less power (they chart it on the bill), but the rates went up.

(I leave a few lights going all the time. I could just shut off some lights, and leave the CPU overclocked.)

Plus, I think I read somewhere (XBit?), that overclocking a CPU, without changing the voltage, can actually make the CPU more power-efficient.

Overclocking at the same voltage will give you better performance per watt, but it will still use more power.

What kind of lights are you using? How much equipment is around your place? Most electronics these days continue to draw (even if very little) power even when turned "off."

 

[Ken g6]

I think you went overboard on the underclocking. You should be able to run at stock clocks at a reduced voltage on your CPU.

Meanwhile, I noticed you didn't seem interested in getting an AMD card. Then I noticed [thread=2249533]one of your threads in the DC forum[/thread]. Then I searched and found [thread=2064356]this other thread in the DC forum[/thread]. Are you sure you don't want an AMD card? Of course, it wouldn't be as good for Folding or PrimeGrid - though it should still work in some cases. But you could always stick your 460(s) back in for races.

 

[mfenn]

But listening to internet radio, and web browsing, was painful. The internet radio would skip every once in a while, and web page scrolling was just laggy and bad, with the DC running in the background. Clearly, that rig was underpowered for what I wanted to use it for.

If you're doing distributed computing on a Zacate, you're doing it wrong. Of course your experience would be horrible, those chips are not meant to be FLOPS monsters.

Edit: I looked at the mobo manual, B75 chipset apparently doesn't support RAID. I was hoping for a little RAID-1 (mirroring) action, so I could have an SSD in the SATA6G port, and then a Blu-Ray burner, and two 1TB HDs in RAID-1 for my data. Does anyone know if you can set up a software RAID-1 under Win7, or is that limited to server OSes?

Yes, you can do mirrored volumes with Windows 7 (Pro and up I think). However, you really don't want to because the drives will go out of sync and have to rebuild all the time.

 

[ElFenix]

uh, yeah, you went way overboard with the undervolting. i was running stock speeds while undervolting. actually took the processor up to 3.2 (stock was 2.6) and managed to get the voltage low enough (stable!) to undo the power consumption increase due to the clocks.


anyway, saving electricity and DC are pretty much mutually exclusive. you can't do both satisfactorily. you're going to have to pick one.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If you're doing distributed computing on a Zacate, you're doing it wrong. Of course your experience would be horrible, those chips are not meant to be FLOPS monsters.

It wasn't that the DC was slow, I don't really care all that much about how fast it runs, since it simply runs in the background and takes up excess CPU time.

The problem was the user experience in Windows 7 64-bit, with DC running in the background. Apparently, as CPU speeds decrease, there are less cycles to fit in-between the DC stuff for normal web browsing, etc. (Even though the DC stuff runs at a lesser priority, which in theory shouldn't slow anything else down that is running at higher priority.)

I was running DC on the IGP on the E-350 too, which might have been what pushed it over the edge to not really working well. The GTX460 has enough available resources that running DC at 99% GPU utilization still leaves enough grunt to run Win7's Aero UI and web browse, although Firefox scrolling does slow down if you enable hardware accelleration.

 

[mfenn]

It wasn't that the DC was slow, I don't really care all that much about how fast it runs, since it simply runs in the background and takes up excess CPU time.

This doesn't really make any sense to me. If you don't care that your distributed computing tasks are slow, why are you doing it in the first place? Something like an E-350 isn't getting any useful work done for you (in terms of points) or for the researchers.

 

[silvscorp]

is there any software that tells the power consumption in real time?

 

[Zap]

is there any software that tells the power consumption in real time?

Yes, the software built into a Kill-A-Watt style device.

 

[sm625]

With your Q9300 at 1.5GHz, maybe you could set your DC core affinity to not use one core. This way windows would have one core available all the time and it might provide acceptable user experience, and you'd still be able to dedicate 3 cores to DC

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I'd say invest in a more efficient power supply. I seen idle watts lower when i switched from a 950w enermax silver evo, to a Seasonic x SS 400w FL Gold