Postal service posts $3.8 billion loss

[Vette73]

Sure $45 vs $17 looks better... until you realize that UPS pays cash for all of their new airplanes while the USPS goes to congress to ask for more money.

Were you born dumb or just learned it?

The USPS is self-funded. Its actually congress's fault they are having problems now as they are not allowed to raise their prices like Fed-EX/UPS has in the last several years. If congress would back off then they could raise rates to say $.50 and stop Sat mail.

 

[LunarRay]

That's because FedEx/UPS are legally prohibited from handling regular mail. $20 means it's there tomorrow morning. $0.43 means it's there several days later.

Express mail is next morning too.. it cost like 8$ for a few ozs... as I recall.

 

[PokerGuy]

You can paypal someone. You can pay by credit card online. You can wire or transfer money to another person's account. No, this doesn't cover every conceivable situation but I don't remember the last check I wrote...it must have been for a wedding gift.

Regarding legal documents, you absolutely can use your sent email printout as evidence of a sent correspondence. Further, if necessary, you can subpoena server records to prove you sent it and trace its journey; try that with a piece of first class mail! How is claiming you sent a physical letter (non-registered) any stronger a claim of proof? Receipt of email and snail mail is presumed especially if there is a prior course of dealing using it. You can also always follow up with a phone call. If someone is going to falsely contest receipt of an email they'd likely contest receipt of a physical letter too.

Yes it's nicer to get a physical card than an email card saying happy birthday, but as mailing becomes more rare an event it will simply cost more to use as it becomes niche.

You are sorely mistaken. There are a LOT of laws and regulations regarding service and delivery of court documents etc, and using email will not suffice for the vast majority of them. How are you going to prove that someone actually received mail and it wasn't read and deleted by someone else with access to the account? How are you going to prevent sensitive documents from being read since email is wide open? Yes, I know, encryption, but that infrastructure is not available yet.

I'm sure one day email will become the standard for just about everything, but right now that's just not realistic.

 

[rudder]

Were you born dumb or just learned it?

The USPS is self-funded. Its actually congress's fault they are having problems now as they are not allowed to raise their prices like Fed-EX/UPS has in the last several years. If congress would back off then they could raise rates to say $.50 and stop Sat mail.

you hurt my feelings... lol. You really should be careful throwing around that dumb word.

The USPS is a government entity.. inefficient and a money pit. Spin it any way you want... they are collapsing.

http://www.gop.gov/policy-news/09/09/11/what-every-member-needs-to

UPS/Fedex are private corporations. Ship with USPS all you want.... but when you lose a clients package...well. I would gather UPS and Fedex would be a lot more affordable as well if the USPS had to operate like a real business and was not protected by legislated monopolies of certain products. The post office also pays no taxes, borrows money on the cheap, and they can get free land if need be through eminent domain.

 

[Patranus]

Were you born dumb or just learned it?

The USPS is self-funded. Its actually congress's fault they are having problems now as they are not allowed to raise their prices like Fed-EX/UPS has in the last several years. If congress would back off then they could raise rates to say $.50 and stop Sat mail.

If the USPS was self funded, how could it lose 3.8 billion dollars and still be in business?

(Hint: The same way that government run health care will be 'funded')

 

[sciwizam]

Express mail is next morning too.. it cost like 8$ for a few ozs... as I recall.

Not sure if it's the distance, but I mailed a letter (0.2 oz) from TX to MA via Express Mail, got there the next day, but it was $17.50.

 

[Svnla]

I do not know how the USPS is NOT losing $$$ in this internet environment.

1. Mail - IMs/email is free and fast. I can't remember the last time I send out regular mail for personal reasons. I still have to mail paperworks/legal papers to be sign off by regular mail for work.

2. Billpayments - payments on line or by phone is fast and have better chance to arrive on time and most of the time, it is free. No more monthly bill payments via slow mail.

3. Catalogs/advertisements - recession is making a huge dent in the amount of bulk mails being sent out.

The only thing that I still use by USPS is the PO Box service for my business, and sometimes, 1st class shipment for packages.

USPS needs to get rid off their fix costs such as employees and locations but it won't be easy.

 

[Svnla]

Regarding legal documents, you absolutely can use your sent email printout as evidence of a sent correspondence. Further, if necessary, you can subpoena server records to prove you sent it and trace its journey; try that with a piece of first class mail! How is claiming you sent a physical letter (non-registered) any stronger a claim of proof? Receipt of email and snail mail is presumed especially if there is a prior course of dealing using it. You can also always follow up with a phone call. If someone is going to falsely contest receipt of an email they'd likely contest receipt of a physical letter too.

No, you can't do that with all legal documents, especially the ones that require initials or signatures or dated. Don't forget about different protocols/precedents/rules/regulations/etc. regarding those legal documents.

<<---is working in compliance field and amount of the paperworks are staggering.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

are USPS workers unionized?

 

[jonks]

You are sorely mistaken. There are a LOT of laws and regulations regarding service and delivery of court documents etc, and using email will not suffice for the vast majority of them. How are you going to prove that someone actually received mail and it wasn't read and deleted by someone else with access to the account? How are you going to prevent sensitive documents from being read since email is wide open? Yes, I know, encryption, but that infrastructure is not available yet.

I'm quite familiar with the uses of mail regarding legal documents, which is why I said "correspondence." While service of process may sometimes be performed by mail, if the receiver is hostile they can simply not accept the service, which is why process servers are often used. And frankly, if we're reducing the USPS to only transporting documents requiring signatures they won't be able to stay in business anyway, and you'd just use FedEx. Nearly all documents filed with the court must be done in person, or as is becoming more common, by electronic submission. Nearly all subsequent documents in the matter can be exchanged between the parties as emails, attachments to emails and/or faxes (I haven't sent a fax in a long while).

As to your questions about proof of receipt of email, the same questions exist with regard to snail mail. If someone throws out a document you mail them can't they just say they didn't get it? Can't anyone open an envelope containing sensitive documents? Can't someone intercept the mail and throw it out? An email would be much easier to track through a server which could reveal when it was received, opened and/or deleted. An infrastructure upgrade for encryption isn't necessary most of the time. A simple password on a pdf file attached to an email will deter 90something percent of snoopers.

I agree we can't get rid of mail completely yet, but it's on it's way out and is used quite rarely now compared to even 5 years ago.

No, you can't do that with all legal documents, especially the ones that require initials or signatures or dated. Don't forget about different protocols/precedents/rules/regulations/etc. regarding those legal documents.

<<---is working in compliance field and amount of the paperworks are staggering.

I didn't say 'all legal documents' did I? Electronic signatures are becoming commonplace on legal docs, though there are some circumstances that require original signatures. Hell, I don't even sign my e-filed tax returns anymore; I just enter my pin-code and type my full name. As touchscreens and scanning start becoming ubiquitous, you'll start to see the law adapt. It's generally slow to do so as most older lawyers and judges are generally conservative and traditional about how to do things. As the younger lawyers start taking over electronic documents, signatures, transmissions and filing will become the standard.

 

[Rangoric]

Wait a sec, people are actually saying that the POST OFFICE is an example of government waste?

The same post office that until very recently has been self funded?
The same post office that gets to compete with the internet?

FedEx/UPS don't compete with the internet, they are fueled by it's expansion.

The Post Office is an example of an entity that needs to be trimmed and reworked a bit due to the fact that it isn't needed to be the whole answer for mail anymore.

 

[LunarRay]

Not sure if it's the distance, but I mailed a letter (0.2 oz) from TX to MA via Express Mail, got there the next day, but it was $17.50.

http://www.usps.com/prices/express-mail-prices.htm

You're right... see the table in the link above

 

[LunarRay]

are USPS workers unionized?

Yes they are!

 

[LumbergTech]

In a city like San Diego, I think the following is in order:
Deliver mail Mon, Wed, Fri on some business routes and Tue, Thur and Sat on the balance.
Eliminate overtime.
Eliminate vehicles to deliver mail.. go back to paying the carriers to use their cars.
Fix the route to an agreed examination of 8 hours time. IF the carrier can do it in 7 he/she gets paid for 8 and if it takes 9 they still get paid 8.
Deliver Parcels over what a carrier can carry with the mail via a truck like UPS.
Eliminate redundant infrastructure.
Reinstall the corner mail box system and the local carrier picks this mail up en route.

I think the above would save the USPS quite a bit of money...

Raise the price of first class to .75$ and move all rural route delivery to central box locations. Increase the number of PO Boxes and provide 6 days delivery of mail to boxes...

Some of the things you proposed are already being done in other places (which you may well be aware of)..

The one that worries me is the fixed route. I know that in theory this makes sense, however, this system is heavily abused in the area I live in. They purposely choose times to "evaluate" the routes so that the load is not representative of the average. They purposely hold back mail trucks to make the routes appear to be smaller. A few years ago the employees even proved that they were holding back mail trucks and the post office elected to do absolutely nothing about it. I know people personally who are working 12 hours every day on 8-9 hour routes. Ultimately what results is that people who have been doing their job every day for many years end up making less money per hour each year.

 

[Patranus]

I know people personally who are working 12 hours every day on 8-9 hour routes. Ultimately what results is that people who have been doing their job every day for many years end up making less money per hour each year.

Oh the horror....they have to work like people in the private sector....you know where you have a contract to do job X and you work 24-7 until the job is done.

 

[LunarRay]

Some of the things you proposed are already being done in other places (which you may well be aware of).. The one that worries me is the fixed route. I know that in theory this makes sense, however, this system is heavily abused in the area I live in. They purposely choose times to "evaluate" the routes so that the load is not representative of the average. They purposely hold back mail trucks to make the routes appear to be smaller. A few years ago the employees even proved that they were holding back mail trucks and the post office elected to do absolutely nothing about it. I know people personally who are working 12 hours every day on 8-9 hour routes. Ultimately what results is that people who have been doing their job every day for many years end up making less money per hour each year.

I'm not actually aware of much at all regarding other places nor even San Diego. It is mind boggling for me to realize I was in Grad School 39 yrs ago and Carrying the Mail to support the family.
I do recall having a route that had 5:15 street time and I could run it in 1:30 and office time of 2:45 and could throw the mail and flats and play ping pong for an hour...
Things have changed big time since then... but the reality is the volume changes daily. I talked to Ms Sellers, the Postmaster of the San Diego area about being able to work to the route... She said the Union wouldn't go for it... hehehehehe I was shop steward of 92103 at the time. I know how the routes were examined and how the mail is sorted today and feel that timing the route to the average and going home after 6 hours or working 9 saves money. But, I feel the 3 day delivery is a key element... iow, A carrier and a T6 for two routes... [the T6 carries on the carrier's day off] I'm not sure about the clerks but suspect the counter needs are going to be there regardless... where I live there is always a long wait and at most two clerks on a 6 station desk.

 

[LegendKiller]

If the USPS was self funded, how could it lose 3.8 billion dollars and still be in business?

(Hint: The same way that government run health care will be 'funded')

There are plenty of companies who have lost that much in a year and have survived.

The USPS is self-funded and does quite well normally. They need to streamline costs, raise rates, both of which have been hindered by Congress.

 

[rchiu]

given that email is essentially free and you can attach that same letter for free, paying 50x the cost is comparatively astronomically expensive. Which is probably why they're hemorrhaging money out the butt.

Technological advances have rendered most uses of snail mail letter sending passe if not obsolete. This will be spun as "gov't can't do anything right" but that's dumb. Once humans evolve into beings of pure energy we won't need health insurance companies either, public or private, and it won't be their fault their consumer base evaporated (or teleported, or whatever it is we'll be doing then)

Those who don't have an Internet service still have the rights to send and receive mail you know.

The problem with USPS is that it is a public service and it needs to service remote towns and villages where they are losing money just to provide that service. And keep in mind USPS don't just mail letters, they mail items and goods as well. The day your technology can email my cpus I just bought is the day I'd say let technology take over.

 

[LegendKiller]

Those who don't have an Internet service still have the rights to send and receive mail you know.

The problem with USPS is that it is a public service and it needs to service remote towns and villages where they are losing money just to provide that service. And keep in mind USPS don't just mail letters, they mail items and goods as well. The day your technology can email my cpus I just bought is the day I'd say let technology take over.

This is a point that many people forget, the USPS does a job that almost no other carrier in the world has to do. They do it cheaper and faster than anybody else with far more logistical problems.

As far as the airplane thing, the USPS pays carriers for the space/weight taken.

 

[charrison]

The post office needs to get over 6 day delivery. Most people only get junk mail in their mailboxes today, so there is nothing that great about junk mail 6 days a week. Let the junk mail be delivered 2 or 3 times a week and then express/first class mail could be delivered on a 6 day basis with routes more like fedex/ups.

They also need to drop front door delivery. Common mailboxes are far more efficient. If people want to keep curbside/front door delivery, let them pay a fee to do so.

These two changes alone would radically shrink the manpower and resources it takes to deliver mail. But this could only be implemented via attrition because of the postal union.


Also open the post offices 7 days a week and staff them so you dont have to wait a 1/2 hour to send a package.

 

[sciwizam]

There are plenty of companies who have lost that much in a year and have survived.

The USPS is self-funded and does quite well normally. They need to streamline costs, raise rates, both of which have been hindered by Congress.

Link

I'm not sure

 

[charrison]

This is a point that many people forget, the USPS does a job that almost no other carrier in the world has to do. They do it cheaper and faster than anybody else with far more logistical problems.

As far as the airplane thing, the USPS pays carriers for the space/weight taken.

Most of their logistical problems are self inflected.

 

[Athena]

I'll take the $0.43 and the USPS. Thanks very much.

FYI my organization has recently made a policy to use UPS/Fedex less and use post office more - even overnight stuff now goes express mail. Compare $45 to $17 for overnight delivery and the USPS looks much better.

That is one of the reasons that the service is experiencing such big losses: USPS can't respond to increases in fuel costs. When you ship something via UPS or FedEx, you'll see a "fuel adjustment" charge that reflects the current cost of fuel. The USPS has to wait around for annual (or less often) rate approvals from Congress. The result is that the volume goes up because they are shipping at below cost...so they lose even more money.

They also had a big problem with the mandatory flex fuel requirements that Congress imposed the last time they wanted bids for new delivery vehicles. Congress required them to get flex fuel vehicles but the only ones that did what the USPS needed had a much bigger engine than they actually wanted...so they spent more for the vehicles that use more gas than if they had just bought more of what they already had.

Things are never as simple as they seem.

 

[LegendKiller]

Link

I'm not sure

So, the profits/losses flow/ebb with the economy, wow, imagine that! Since 1996 the USPS has lost a total of $2bn. For a company that has to manage to ZERO profit, that isn't horrible, especially given the tasks it is assigned.

 

[LegendKiller]

Most of their logistical problems are self inflected.

Not really, there are many good reasons for them.