Post holes revisted.

paperfist

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Nov 30, 2000
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I need to set 4 - 6" posts and my buddy who's in construction said the new way to do it is to dig 5' deep x 24" wide holes and first pour a 1' concrete base.

Then set the post on top of the base and back fill it with stone or soil. This is supposed to eliminate rot.

With the old way you set the post and back filled with concrete fully encasing the post in concrete. The post couldn't go anywhere side to side or up.

What I don't understand with the new method is what is really going to keep the post from leaning one way or the other if for some reason it gets a heavy snow load or high winds push it around?
 

Humpy

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Mar 3, 2011
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In my area the soil can be sandy so steel posts with concrete to act as ballast are often used for taller fences. In firmer soil and shorter fences I've not had a problem with just pea gravel as backfill, sometimes with a shallow concrete cap to help anchor and stop weeds from growing around the post.

I like digging by hand with a steel handled post hole digger if there are only ten holes or so. Its manly.
 
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paperfist

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Maybe I should clarify. It's for what is becoming a very expensive 14' x 14' gazeebo. 6x6 posts in each corner. LVL top plate. Crazyness.

I don't think I'd trust pre-cast piers.

Apparently the rot starts when concrete touches the pressure treated wood. Since concrete wicks moisture up to it and it's in constant contact with the wood it continues to decay it.

Really, I was curious as to how just setting a post on a concrete pier gives that post any stability.
 

Humpy

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The gazebo would be constructed/braced in a way that is stable on it's own with no need for the posts to be buried.

It just has to be attached to something heavy so it can't blow away. The foundation holds the structure down as much as it holds it up.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

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Jun 19, 2004
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Maybe I should clarify. It's for what is becoming a very expensive 14' x 14' gazeebo. 6x6 posts in each corner. LVL top plate. Crazyness.

I don't think I'd trust pre-cast piers.

Apparently the rot starts when concrete touches the pressure treated wood. Since concrete wicks moisture up to it and it's in constant contact with the wood it continues to decay it.

Really, I was curious as to how just setting a post on a concrete pier gives that post any stability.
First, the pier has a larger footprint than the post. We're not talking about 6 x 6 piers but 18" diameter ones buried.
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
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Maybe I should clarify. It's for what is becoming a very expensive 14' x 14' gazeebo. 6x6 posts in each corner. LVL top plate. Crazyness.

I don't think I'd trust pre-cast piers.

Apparently the rot starts when concrete touches the pressure treated wood. Since concrete wicks moisture up to it and it's in constant contact with the wood it continues to decay it.

Really, I was curious as to how just setting a post on a concrete pier gives that post any stability.
Setting the post on the pier does nothing for lateral movement. I've seen posts set in gravel and it appears to work, though I'm not sure if it should be simple 3/4" crushed or 3/4" by dust. I've heard arguments for both.
 
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paperfist

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First, the pier has a larger footprint than the post. We're not talking about 6 x 6 piers but 18" diameter ones buried.

Got ya. This will have a 24" pier when done. Didn't know they had pre-case in 18" diameters.

Setting the post on the pier does nothing for lateral movement. I've seen posts set in gravel and it appears to work, though I'm not sure if it should be simple 3/4" crushed or 3/4" by dust. I've heard arguments for both.

Dust, you mean crush of run stone? Yeah, I've been wondering if using that would cause moisture issues. The stone should drain so I'm thinking minimal moisture issues.

You guys see they have foam now for post holes?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sika-33-fl-oz-Fence-Post-Mix-483503/205671519
 
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ch33zw1z

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i dug out 8 rotted poles with a poured concrete base like that. eff that, will use a post hole digger if i put new ones in
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
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They rotted with just a concrete base or the post holes were filled with concrete that surrounded the post?
the poles were old, and overgrown, and a few carpenter bees had gone nuts.

whoever put them in dug a big hole for each, probably 2 feet deep, and poured the concrete in with the pole.

digging each one out, i had a hole even bigger than the original (i would imagine) to get the concrete "boot" out.

its like they just used a backhoe.

the length of the pole buried in the soil were mostly ok.
 
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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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I don't know nothin' bout nothin', but I wonder if you could sleeve the posts in plastic for the underground portion. Seems obvious to me, so maybe there's a reason that isn't done.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
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Greenman

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wow, that foam looks worth a shot.
It's new, that's bad. New products in critical areas (expensive to replace) are to be evaluated with an extremely skeptical eye. I've been down this road. Some manufacturer comes up with a wizbang new product that seems like a gift from heaven, until it fails catastrophically after 2 years. They always stand behind their warranty, and will replace the failed product free of charge, but you get to eat the "incidental" costs. That's generally about 99% of the replacement cost.
So when you decide to use foam to hold your fence up, figure out how much it's going to cost to pull and replace every post before you do it, then ask yourself "do I feel lucky?".
 

NutBucket

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Aug 30, 2000
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I would just not put wood in the ground. Pour a proper concrete footing for your area and call it good. For fences I would always default to metal posts, even for wood panels.
 
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Dranoche

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The point is to keep the the materials around the post from holding water against the post. Unless the soils around the hole are relatively free-draining, putting concrete at the bottom and filling around the post with a granular material will only create a bathtub of permeable material that can easily saturate and that water has easy access to. Pouring concrete below and around the post seals in any water which works its way in along the interface. It would be best to put gravel in the bottom and concrete around the post so that any water which does work in along the wood/concrete interface can eventually drain out into the surrounding soils. You wouldn't need to put concrete along the entire length but at the very least a collar in the upper portion to provide lateral support. If the soils at the bottom are of low permeability then I'm not sure what would be the ideal solution. This will be very dependent on the type of foundation soils and drainage around the posts. I suppose you could pour a footing and cast a mechanical connection into the footing that the post could be fastened to. This would keep the wood elevated above the footing and away from direct contact with concrete or soil.
 

PowerEngineer

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Oct 22, 2001
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I agree with Nutbucket and Dranocle. If I were setting wood posts, I would want gravel rather than concrete at the bottom of the posts so that water that gets inside the wood could drain out the bottom. But I would prefer to use metal posts for fences anyway. And for your gazebo, I would think about it as being a "small house" and bolt it down onto a "foundation" of poured concrete piers (one on each corner and deep enough to be below the frost line in your area) that lift it a few inches above ground level. My two cents...
 
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paperfist

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I don't know nothin' bout nothin', but I wonder if you could sleeve the posts in plastic for the underground portion. Seems obvious to me, so maybe there's a reason that isn't done.

I've been wondering that from the get go. I never came across anything on the Internet for or against it so like you I thought maybe there was a reason why. I was thinking of using tar paper though figuring it might be a little more durable than plastic.

It's new, that's bad. New products in critical areas (expensive to replace) are to be evaluated with an extremely skeptical eye. I've been down this road. Some manufacturer comes up with a wizbang new product that seems like a gift from heaven, until it fails catastrophically after 2 years. They always stand behind their warranty, and will replace the failed product free of charge, but you get to eat the "incidental" costs. That's generally about 99% of the replacement cost.
So when you decide to use foam to hold your fence up, figure out how much it's going to cost to pull and replace every post before you do it, then ask yourself "do I feel lucky?".

I was at the local lumber yard a couple of days ago and asked if they had any of that thar foam. The first bad clue was it wasn't kept in the lumber department, but hardware. Second bad clue is it was quite a search to find. Finally they steered me away from it saying it's not that great for structural applications beyond a mailbox post :D

I agree with Nutbucket and Dranocle. If I were setting wood posts, I would want gravel rather than concrete at the bottom of the posts so that water that gets inside the wood could drain out the bottom. But I would prefer to use metal posts for fences anyway. And for your gazebo, I would think about it as being a "small house" and bolt it down onto a "foundation" of poured concrete piers (one on each corner and deep enough to be below the frost line in your area) that lift it a few inches above ground level. My two cents...

Basically this is what I ended up doing. I only got one hole dug and pad set today, but damn it's a big hole with a monolith of concrete.

I dug a 24" diameter hole 4' deep. I put 2" of gravel at the base, set the rebar and poured in 10" of concrete. So that's still under the frost line. The 6x6 post will sit on top of the pad.

I talked to my buddy the house builder again and @Greenman is on the money. He said to back fill with Crush and Run (stone with dust) because it compacts better and will obviously set similar to concrete. I think I'm going to wrap the posts below ground first.
 
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Greenman

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I've been wondering that from the get go. I never came across anything on the Internet for or against it so like you I thought maybe there was a reason why. I was thinking of using tar paper though figuring it might be a little more durable than plastic.
I dipped my retaining wall posts in liquid roofing membrane before setting them in concrete, that was 12 years ago and one has already failed, another isn't feeling well. At the same time, all of my untreated fence posts lasted near 30 years. I'm baffled.
 

paperfist

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I dipped my retaining wall posts in liquid roofing membrane before setting them in concrete, that was 12 years ago and one has already failed, another isn't feeling well. At the same time, all of my untreated fence posts lasted near 30 years. I'm baffled.

lol

Wow that is not the outcome I was expecting. I'm guessing water got trapped in the dipped posts? Glad you chimed in with this info as tomorrow I was hoping to set the posts.
 

NutBucket

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Aug 30, 2000
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We were suggesting a poured footing....solid concrete to above ground level and the wood sitting on that. The ocd peeps here want no wood below grade.
 

Greenman

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We were suggesting a poured footing....solid concrete to above ground level and the wood sitting on that. The ocd peeps here want no wood below grade.
And use something like a galvanized CB44 to hold up the posts?
I think at that point I would have to look at using concrete posts.