Possibility that Nvidia intentionally held back performance.

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: akugami
If I was one of those who bought a 7800GTX early and found out it had been neutered just so they could claim increased performance when the X1800 came out, I'd be royally PO'ed. And don't use the car speed analogy for this one. If you want to use a car analogy. I'd say it'd be the same as buying car1 and getting a decent 35mpg. Then 6 months later you find out car1 is getting a onboard system change free at your local dealer that will boost your car fuel efficiency to 40mpg to compete with newly released car2.

I don't think nVidia held anything back. They could have gotten all the fence sitters if the 7800's could have been made to perform better. Most likely nVidia has performed some driver optimizations for the 7800's that increase performance in certain situations only and for the most part it will not increase performance by any major amount.

Your analogy isn't good. Let me explain the problem with it... It isn't costing you a DIME to not have that extra 5% of performance... Therefore, your gas mileage statement is about as far off as the moon.

 

[TomKazansky]

history repeats itself.

apperently ati is too dumb to realize it.

 

[imported_dwalton]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: dwalton
Mad? Upset? I am lost. I don?t understand why anyone would be mad at nvidia for providing additional performance to a card for free especially when it comes to the 7800GTX.

Lets put it in a different perspective.

I didnt read anything past this, as you must not have read the whole thread. Its not a question of if "nvidia providing additional performance". Nobody who had the card would be mad if they just some how happened to squeeze more performance, as drivers matured.

Well you should of read the whole as I did address that scenario

Its IF (and I stress if) NV held performance back on purpose. Yes it would make me mad, because I could have had the performance the last several months. How would getting it now, be better than having it the whole time? I just dont understand this logic.

But as Ive said, I dont think that they would do this, so Im not going to get worked up. I also dont think there is a 10fps gain across the board.

I fail to see your logic. When you bought your 7800GTX was there some sort of implied agreement between you and Nvidia that the 7800GTX you purchased was gauranteed to perform to its maximum potential? If Nvidia designs a chip with set of performance goals in mind and is able to exceed to those performance goals, then where is it stated or understood that Nvidia is obligated to provide that additional performance.

I guess if you bought a six-pack of beer and two months later Bud sent you two more (as it planned unbeknowst to the customer). You would respond, "I should have got all 8 at the time of purchased." Regardless of the fact that you purposely paid for a just a six pack.

 

[Squeetard]

Guru3D has the leaked 81.26 for download. Here are my results:

Athlon 4000+ single core @2.4ghz
1 gig ram @ 208mhz
Asus 6800GT@380/760
Audigy 2

First score is from 77.71 /second from 81.26

CS source stress test
130.71/130.43

Doom3 demo1
65.6/65.5

3dMark05
4149/4180


No difference at all really.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Squeetard
Guru3D has the leaked 81.26 for download. Here are my results:

Athlon 4000+ single core @2.4ghz
1 gig ram @ 208mhz
Asus 6800GT@380/760
Audigy 2

First score is from 77.71 /second from 81.26

CS source stress test
130.71/130.43

Doom3 demo1
65.6/65.5

3dMark05
4149/4180


No difference at all really.

At least not for a 6600 GT.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: Squeetard
Guru3D has the leaked 81.26 for download. Here are my results:

Athlon 4000+ single core @2.4ghz
1 gig ram @ 208mhz
Asus 6800GT@380/760
Audigy 2

First score is from 77.71 /second from 81.26

CS source stress test
130.71/130.43

Doom3 demo1
65.6/65.5

3dMark05
4149/4180


No difference at all really.

Single core....

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: johnnqq
cars are electronically limited (they CAN be elminated) to 155 for SAFETY reasons...not that half the cars out there can even reach that.

i don't understand how everything turns into an arguement nowadays. eveyrbody has something up their ass.

LOL, nice try, but the cars are not limited for safety reasons in America. If that were the case, then no car would go above 75 MPH, which is the speed limit. The cars are limited by the MFG's plain and simple. If it was for safety reasons (going to give your logic a thought here) then why would the Z06 Corvette be allowed to hit 191+ Mph while the BMW M3 is limited at 155 Mph? We all know the BMW M5 can easily pass the 155 Mph mark, so it must be limited by the MFG.

the 155mph limit is something all the german manufacturers agreed to do. their cars can do much faster. (hi end anyway) i cant remember why they did it (think it was to curve the speeds on Autobahns)

from wiki "Many car manufacturers (including Mercedes, BMW and Audi) limit the speed of their cars electronically to 250 km/h (155 mph); this is only a gentlemen's agreement, not a legal requirement."

"It started out years ago as a ?gentlemen?s agreement?. Now, the 155-mph speed limit found on Audi, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes cars may be lifted after years of being a fact of life. Started as a means to prevent government regulation, this self-regulation is not followed by all manufacturers out side of these four. With more and more manufacturers producing cars that are significantly faster, these four are talking about lifting the limit on their regular production vehicles. The limit removal is being looked into by Audi, BMW, and Lexus. Lexus was not one of the original manufacturers when the limits first were imposed". here

M3 cant do much beyond 160 anyway so the limit doesnt have a huge effect.

The M3 can hit about 167 uncapped. If you noticed, I also mentioned the M5, and the M5 is one monster of a car which can easily hit 190+. Anyway not sure on what the point of your post was. If it was trying to counter my point, it did nothing of the sort. Again, the speed limiter isn't for safety, which is what I was argueing against. The fact that all german car makers agreed to a 155 MPH cap, still shows it was a decision on the car maker themselves, not some government cap.

I subscribe to Car & Driver, Road and Track, MotorTrend etc... So I have also been exposed to the information you presented.

Ok, I am done with the car tangent.

Edit ** Sorry, I just reread your post, it seems you were just being supplimentary! :thumbsup:

i was, you were on about that limit, and i jus provided the background as to why that limit was enforced

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: akugami
If I was one of those who bought a 7800GTX early and found out it had been neutered just so they could claim increased performance when the X1800 came out, I'd be royally PO'ed. And don't use the car speed analogy for this one. If you want to use a car analogy. I'd say it'd be the same as buying car1 and getting a decent 35mpg. Then 6 months later you find out car1 is getting a onboard system change free at your local dealer that will boost your car fuel efficiency to 40mpg to compete with newly released car2.

I don't think nVidia held anything back. They could have gotten all the fence sitters if the 7800's could have been made to perform better. Most likely nVidia has performed some driver optimizations for the 7800's that increase performance in certain situations only and for the most part it will not increase performance by any major amount.

... It isn't costing you a DIME to not have that extra 5% of performance...

Unless you're someone so obsessed with framerate that not satisfied with the performance of your 7800 GTX so you go out and buy a VGA silencer to cool it better to overclock it or you upgraded the PC to a faster processer, or buy a 2nd 7800GTX for SLI ... all of this to get that extra 10fps in FarCry you desired.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Der Treiber ist sehr schnell, optimal für neue Benchmark Rekorde. Aufgefallen sind uns Fehler bei den Benchmarks, aber nur bei den CPU Tests komischerweise. Bei den 3D Messungen konnten bislang keine Grafikfehler gefunden werden. Natürlich werden wir es euch wissen lassen, falls sich das ändert.

This says that there are rendering errors in the CPU test portion of 3DM05(but not in the 3D testing portion)- can anyone with a 7800 verify this?

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Der Treiber ist sehr schnell, optimal für neue Benchmark Rekorde. Aufgefallen sind uns Fehler bei den Benchmarks, aber nur bei den CPU Tests komischerweise. Bei den 3D Messungen konnten bislang keine Grafikfehler gefunden werden. Natürlich werden wir es euch wissen lassen, falls sich das ändert.

This says that there are rendering errors in the CPU test portion of 3DM05(but not in the 3D testing portion)- can anyone with a 7800 verify this?

I read somewhere else that shadows were missing in 3Dmark05... not sure if it was CPU tests or the other tests though.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Der Treiber ist sehr schnell, optimal für neue Benchmark Rekorde. Aufgefallen sind uns Fehler bei den Benchmarks, aber nur bei den CPU Tests komischerweise. Bei den 3D Messungen konnten bislang keine Grafikfehler gefunden werden. Natürlich werden wir es euch wissen lassen, falls sich das ändert.

This says that there are rendering errors in the CPU test portion of 3DM05(but not in the 3D testing portion)- can anyone with a 7800 verify this?

That is true, and you don't require a 7800 to see the error either, it shows up on my 6800GT.

Edit: the CPU test corruption looks similar to a corrupt character set on old computers. Most things still cast shadows, it appears to be a problem with ambient light (GT1 too light) and "global" shadows missing.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: dwalton

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: dwalton
Mad? Upset? I am lost. I don?t understand why anyone would be mad at nvidia for providing additional performance to a card for free especially when it comes to the 7800GTX.

Lets put it in a different perspective.

I didnt read anything past this, as you must not have read the whole thread. Its not a question of if "nvidia providing additional performance". Nobody who had the card would be mad if they just some how happened to squeeze more performance, as drivers matured.

Well you should of read the whole as I did address that scenario

Its IF (and I stress if) NV held performance back on purpose. Yes it would make me mad, because I could have had the performance the last several months. How would getting it now, be better than having it the whole time? I just dont understand this logic.

But as Ive said, I dont think that they would do this, so Im not going to get worked up. I also dont think there is a 10fps gain across the board.

I fail to see your logic. When you bought your 7800GTX was there some sort of implied agreement between you and Nvidia that the 7800GTX you purchased was gauranteed to perform to its maximum potential? If Nvidia designs a chip with set of performance goals in mind and is able to exceed to those performance goals, then where is it stated or understood that Nvidia is obligated to provide that additional performance.

I guess if you bought a six-pack of beer and two months later Bud sent you two more (as it planned unbeknowst to the customer). You would respond, "I should have got all 8 at the time of purchased." Regardless of the fact that you purposely paid for a just a six pack.

Your compison is poor.

One question for you. Would you rather have the alleged extra frames the whole time, or get them now? The answer is simple for me, I would rather have had them the entire time.

This is my last post in this, because a) Ive already gave my opinion, b) its not likely going to be 10fps gain across the board anyways.

 

[ronnn]

Oh, does Nvidia have another wonder driver? Sort of to be expected with an Ati launch on the way. Looks like the Iq wars are ready to begin! Should be lots of good fun.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Your analogy isn't good. Let me explain the problem with it... It isn't costing you a DIME to not have that extra 5% of performance... Therefore, your gas mileage statement is about as far off as the moon.

I thought of that and I knew someone would bring it up. I probably should have added a disclaimer to ignore gas prices. However, as far as car analogies go, I'd say it's closer than to compare the performance of a video card to that of the max mph of a car, which you'll never hit because laws prohibit you from going that fast legally except on the race track.

After all, nVidia crippling the performance of the 7800 by deliberately not implementing in certain optimizations to get better performance is the same as if a car company deliberately didn't implement optimizations to get better gas mileage.


Either way, I don't think nVidia deliberately crippled the 7800. If they did do so deliberately, I'd lose a ton of respect for them and would have to stay away from their products in the future.