Kerouactivist
Diamond Member
QFT
HAHAHA
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Pope questions God. Millions of Catholic heads explode.
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QFT
HAHAHA
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
Bzzzzzt....wrong. The Psalm isn't doubting God and neither is the Pope. They're imploring Him to show them what wisdoms or truths or strengths there are to be gathered from tragedy.
We as a world and individuals learn far more from our failures than our successes. If you have kids you know you can't always prevent them from hurting themselves. If you're like me, after comforting them, you ask them if they know how and why they got hurt and they usually understand what it was when just a few moment before they had no idea.
Aside from that, if God were constantly intervening ar a worldwide scale, everybody would see it.......and believe because they'd know God existed........and free will to believe in Him or not would be lost.
Again, this is stuff pretty much covered in Sunday school when you're 7 so it's baffling such basic logic confounds so many people.
Psalms 58
1 Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods? Do you judge people fairly?
2 No, in your hearts you devise wrongs; your hands deal out violence on earth.
3 The wicked go astray from the womb; they err from their birth, speaking lies.
4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
5 so that it does not hear the voice of charmers or of the cunning enchanter.
6 O God, break the teeth in their mouths; tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
7 Let them vanish like water that runs away; like grass let them be trodden down and wither.
8 Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun.
9 Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns, whether green or ablaze, may he sweep them away!
10 The righteous will rejoice when they see vengeance done; they will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 People will say, "Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth."
1 Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods? Do you judge people fairly?
2 No, in your hearts you devise wrongs; your hands deal out violence on earth.
3 The wicked go astray from the womb; they err from their birth, speaking lies.
4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
5 so that it does not hear the voice of charmers or of the cunning enchanter.
6 O God, break the teeth in their mouths; tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
7 Let them vanish like water that runs away; like grass let them be trodden down and wither.
8 Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun.
9 Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns, whether green or ablaze, may he sweep them away!
10 The righteous will rejoice when they see vengeance done; they will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 People will say, "Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth."
GeneValgene
Diamond Member
i understand that they are not doubting the existence of god, but after reading psalm 22, i think it is pretty obvious david is struggling with the 'why's' behind the actions of god, in a sense questioning him, and his purposes
that is purely your opinion
yes, and all of us have had the luxury of attending sunday school since we were kids :disgust:
reverend boltron
Senior member
What book was this? I've read a few other 'gospels', but it's a good idea to know what's floating around out there.
Not sure what book or why it was ro was not included.
However, this teaching is one of the church.
google icon of the resurection and you will see a picture of Christ pulling adam and eve out of a grave
I am not exactly sure where or if, Abraham is specifically mentioned, but that is a normal sort of teaching of the early church, not just of some off shoot sect
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
If you're doubting God or His motives then, no, that's not okay. Why are you worshipping/believing in somebody you aren't sure has your best interests in mind?
If you're asking God, literally, for an answer then you haven't read the Bible enough because His Will is spelled out perfectly well there.
The only way this is cool is if it's merely the first part of you seeking to understand.....essentially thinking outloud which is what I believe the Pope and David were doing....to be followed up with further pondering and/or Bible reading and/or prayer.
reverend boltron
Senior member
That's a really interesting page man. I'll have to read up on it more. But yeah, there is definitely a lot of false stuff running around. Thankfully we have the Armor of God. 😉
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
There is a big difference between questioning in the form of trying to understand, and questioning in the form of "are you sure that was the right thing." I would have to imagine the Pope was asking the question in the former form rather than the latter. That being the case, I see no reason for his comments to be condoning of him or his religion.
DanTMWTMP
Lifer
sorry, in another sense, we do not have free will.
you're saying our brains can defy the physical laws of this universe? Every reaction stems from another action. Our brain, at the atomic level, still obeys these laws, therefore, whatever we do, whatever decisiosn made, and all the things that our brain does, still follow these laws.
pessimistically speaking, our own actions are nothing but electrochemical reactions from input from our surroundings. our decisions are no different. we're just a highly advanced "thinking" organism that stilll plays with these laws.
therefore, there is no free will. there's no such thing as"what if this happened..." because it wouldn';t have happened that way, and never will happen. Everything follows the laws as linearly as possible.
It's as linear as how asteroids move and smash each other, as linear as pool balls hitting each other.
sorry, no free will. everything happens just as it is. no such thing as "what if's" when it already did happen. because, for one, it'll never happen again, and two, it would have never happened any other way.
😛 😛 😛
fbrdphreak
Lifer
mordantmonkey
Diamond Member
hilarious
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
You don't want to hear about it, don't click on it genius.
As someone who has actually studied various arguments against free will in that respect, I can tell you that every argument (and I'm talking hardcore logician-type arguments) for the incompatibility of free will and determinism has failed. They all basically fail because no one can seem to come up with a principle of determinism that precludes one's having the ability to do otherwise.
You can read more here
I also recommend
David Lewis. "Are We Free to Break the Laws?" (Theoria 47 (1981), pp 113-21)
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