Pope Francis: Atheists who do good are redeemed

[szechuanpork]

i'm a bit old school and believe atheists no matter how good should go to hell. but what about the fornicating atheist pagan soldier who jumps on a live grenade to protect his troop? you can't send a guy like that to hell. damn gray areas.

 

[IronWing]

If you're going to have a religion that has a hell and a path to redemption then salvation through good works makes a hell of a lot more sense than salvation through faith but then religions don't have to make any sense.

Salvation through faith alone is a preacher babble cop out for rationalizing why bad things happen to good people.

 

[waggy]

I'm an atheist, however I was raised a strict christian.

The answer to that conundrum is that God would presumably know the intentions of that individual and all the circumstances of his good and bad actions and know whether he was acting out of a self serving heart or a truly repentant one inspired by his faith... And he would be judged accordingly.

that is what i think but that is not what religious leaders have said. at least not until now.

it was always "accept Christ and go to heaven" IF you don't accept him you go to hell!

never made sense to me and not something i would think Jesus or God would do.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Good works will not get you to heaven, but faith will. If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins (taking our place, the ultimate sacrifice)and rose again, and accept him as your personal savior, that gets you to heaven. Everything else you do good is simply being obedient and showing an example. But no matter how hard we try we still sin, that's why the only way to be cleansed is by accepting Jesus as our savior. The pope should really reinforce this fact, as I find often catholic priests don't put enough essence on that. John 3:16 is key. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[IronWing]

Good works will not get you to heaven, but faith will. If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins (taking our place, the ultimate sacrifice)and rose again, and accept him as your personal savior, that gets you to heaven. Everything else you do good is simply being obedient and showing an example. But no matter how hard we try we still sin, that's why the only way to be cleansed is by accepting Jesus as our savior. The pope should really reinforce this fact, as I find often catholic priests don't put enough essence on that. John 3:16 is key. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You parrot preacher babble quite well. You've earned a gold star and a pat on the head.

 

[PowerEngineer]

i'm a bit old school and believe atheists no matter how good should go to hell.

Old school or old testament? 😛

I think it makes more sense to reserve hell for those believers who supposedly know better than to disobey the commandments of their Christian god and still choose to disobey anyway.

 

[PowerEngineer]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Note that the nature of that "eternal life" is nor described. Perhaps eternal damnation is a possibility. 😉

The catholic church has never ascribed to the idea that faith in god is sufficient for salvation. Their focus has always been on good deeds and on repentance for sins. What the pope said is not really ground breaking.

 

[Jeff7]

I'm an atheist, however I was raised a strict christian.

The answer to that conundrum is that God would presumably know the intentions of that individual and all the circumstances of his good and bad actions and know whether he was acting out of a self serving heart or a truly repentant one inspired by his faith... And he would be judged accordingly.

This is the sort of thing that's a good argument against Pascal's Wager.

"I believed in you, God, because I thought it sounded like an easier, safer route."

""

If you're going to have a religion that has a hell and a path to redemption then salvation through good works makes a hell of a lot more sense than salvation through faith but then religions don't have to make any sense.

Salvation through faith alone is a preacher babble cop out for rationalizing why bad things happen to good people.

Or the "We can't understand God's reasons for doing things" bit.
There's a hell of a lot of horrible things in the world. Upper management is doing a piss-poor job in the Love & Benevolence department.

The other cop-out then: "It's our own fault. Two people did something naughty several thousand years ago, so billions of other people, through absolutely no fault of their own, also suffer terribly as a result, because of God's sadistically tough love."

Good works will not get you to heaven, but faith will. If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins (taking our place, the ultimate sacrifice)and rose again, and accept him as your personal savior, that gets you to heaven. Everything else you do good is simply being obedient and showing an example. But no matter how hard we try we still sin, that's why the only way to be cleansed is by accepting Jesus as our savior. The pope should really reinforce this fact, as I find often catholic priests don't put enough essence on that. John 3:16 is key. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So the Human v1.0 unit will sin by design, and the Semi-Dead Jesus Hotfix is a cobbled-together patch meant to take care of that problem, though it doesn't kick in until you die, which will come at a time that will not be revealed to you. The manner of death will also be a surprise. (Humans like surprises, right?) Oh, and suicide is not permitted either, so no fast track to final salvation for you!


...Hm, but suicide is a sin, and we're all sinners by design, and all sins are viewed as being equally bad, and Jesus died for our sins...

Old school or old testament? 😛

I think it makes more sense to reserve hell for those believers who supposedly know better than to disobey the commandments of their Christian god and still choose to disobey anyway.

I wonder if the murderers have to share bunks with people who worked on Sundays?

 

[PieIsAwesome]

Good to see him promoting tolerance, but atheists are still not "saved". The goal of this mind virus is to spread to everyone. Not believing isn't acceptable. Everyone must submit themselves completely to this system that doesn't have their best interests at heart.

 

[Balt]

i'm a bit old school and believe atheists no matter how good should go to hell. but what about the fornicating atheist pagan soldier who jumps on a live grenade to protect his troop? you can't send a guy like that to hell. damn gray areas.

You state two completely different philosophies in the same sentence. So which do you believe?

 

[FelixDeCat]

Good works will not get you to heaven, but faith will. If you believe in God and that his son Jesus died for our sins (taking our place, the ultimate sacrifice)and rose again, and accept him as your personal savior, that gets you to heaven. Everything else you do good is simply being obedient and showing an example. But no matter how hard we try we still sin, that's why the only way to be cleansed is by accepting Jesus as our savior. The pope should really reinforce this fact, as I find often catholic priests don't put enough essence on that. John 3:16 is key. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I understand what Pope Francis is saying. That is why I said that a man who has studied and preached the Bible and taken vows of poverty, chastity, humility and obedience to God most of his life might have a good idea of what he is talking about.

He quoted a teaching from Jesus for his proclamation, but the Bible also quotes Jesus as saying that "no man will go to the Father except through Me."

Perhaps Jesus (the Son of God) is able to judge the goodness of men through faith in being good to others, as God is good and forgiving. The Bible mentions that forgiveness of others is an important practice for us as well, so God will forgive us for our own sins.

 

[destrekor]

i'm a bit old school and believe atheists no matter how good should go to hell. but what about the fornicating atheist pagan soldier who jumps on a live grenade to protect his troop? you can't send a guy like that to hell. damn gray areas.

:hmm:

So, an Atheist who: lives a life of donating to charity; giving the shirt off his back to those in need; busting his ass in physical labor to render aid to others; educating others and in general improving the knowledge base of those who need it; and simply helps his fellow man in any way that makes sense at the time... that all is moot because he didn't die for his troubles?

Yet, a guy who does fuck all for civilization through most of his life, yet becomes a martyr of sorts, dying while saving others, has the golden ticket?


Sounds wonderful.

So the message is: if you choose not to be a believer, apparently the only way to save yourself is to become a martyr for those who probably have accepted the local flavor of God.


Well, we're getting quite back to flawed interpretations of the Old Testament and the Qur'an, aren't we?

 

[lxskllr]

Well, we're getting quite back to flawed interpretations of the Old Testament and the Qur'an, aren't we?

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[Gunslinger08]

I think some are misinterpreting what the Pope said. He isn't saying atheists go to Heaven. He's saying that morality can exist outside of religion (specifically Catholicism), that all people have been relieved of the burden of sin (regret, shame, unforgiveness, etc), and that believers and non-believers can and should come together to do good instead of being at odds over theology. This is a direct statement of what I think his central message has been so far - do good and encourage others to do good (ex. helping the poor) regardless of your differences.

He is not saying that atheists will be saved for works. Even the works vs faith people still think faith is a basic requirement. There is a group that agrees that atheists can be saved by living right.

 

[szechuanpork]

You state two completely different philosophies in the same sentence. So which do you believe?

i believe this is a fucking hard question.

:hmm:

So, an Atheist who: lives a life of donating to charity; giving the shirt off his back to those in need; busting his ass in physical labor to render aid to others; educating others and in general improving the knowledge base of those who need it; and simply helps his fellow man in any way that makes sense at the time... that all is moot because he didn't die for his troubles?

Yet, a guy who does fuck all for civilization through most of his life, yet becomes a martyr of sorts, dying while saving others, has the golden ticket?


Sounds wonderful.

So the message is: if you choose not to be a believer, apparently the only way to save yourself is to become a martyr for those who probably have accepted the local flavor of God.


Well, we're getting quite back to flawed interpretations of the Old Testament and the Qur'an, aren't we?

it was really a thought experiment not a prescriptive rule on what atheists can do to go to heaven. the point, which you missed, was that we, humans, are ill equipped to judge perfectly. your examples might very well be what God wants in us humans. being a martyr is not a necessary condition but a sufficient one, perhaps?

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Well, we're getting quite back to flawed interpretations of the Old Testament and the Qur'an, aren't we?

Is there any non-flawed way to interpret the two most vile books of fairy tales ever foisted upon mankind?

 

[szechuanpork]

Is there any non-flawed way to interpret the two most vile books of fairy tales ever foisted upon mankind?

funny how the worlds most evil genocides were perpetrated by people who did not believe in God. they espoused either a fascist or communist ideology devoid of these so called fairy tales. I rather have fairy tales if senseless killings are lessened.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

funny how the worlds most evil genocides were perpetrated by people who did not believe in God. they espoused either a fascist or communist ideology devoid of these so called fairy tales. I rather have fairy tales if senseless killings are lessened.

Wow, no single atrocity committed by a religion rises to the level of Stalin or Mao, what a ringing endorsement.

Add up ALL the killings commited by mankind in the name of their invisible men in the sky and it makes what the fascists/commies did look like the Care Bears Jamboree.

 

[szechuanpork]

Wow, no single atrocity committed by a religion rises to the level of Stalin or Mao, what a ringing endorsement.

Add up ALL the killings commited by mankind in the name of their invisible men in the sky and it makes what the fascists/commies did look like the Care Bears Jamboree.

wow that is acutally not true.

 

[Smoblikat]

Wow, this pope is a damn cool dude.

I wonder if he smokes pot............😀

 

[Triumph]

I think some are misinterpreting what the Pope said. He isn't saying atheists go to Heaven. He's saying that morality can exist outside of religion (specifically Catholicism), that all people have been relieved of the burden of sin (regret, shame, unforgiveness, etc), and that believers and non-believers can and should come together to do good instead of being at odds over theology. This is a direct statement of what I think his central message has been so far - do good and encourage others to do good (ex. helping the poor) regardless of your differences.

He is not saying that atheists will be saved for works. Even the works vs faith people still think faith is a basic requirement. There is a group that agrees that atheists can be saved by living right.

This is what I understand from his homily as well. Christianity is pretty clear in its assertion that you cannot get to Heaven without accepting Christ as your saviour. I believe this goes back pretty much to the 4th century at the Council of Nicaea. In any case, the Bible is pretty clear on that point. I don't know what the Catholic church teaches nowadays in regards to the concept of purgatory, but I remember being taught that if you were "good but not quite good enough", that's where you went rather than straight to hell.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

funny how the worlds most evil genocides were perpetrated by people who did not believe in God. they espoused either a fascist or communist ideology devoid of these so called fairy tales. I rather have fairy tales if senseless killings are lessened.

And did they commit those acts because they did not believe in god or because they espoused a fascist/communist ideology?

Take a look at Hitler, you'll find few people in the world who managed to rally more people using religious phrases (mainly invoking various biblical quotes and references to god in his speeches). Would you say the Nazis were insane genocidals because of a belief in god or because they were fucking Nazists?

Then there are a lot of examples of religious people murdering people in the name of god, torturing, burning, blowing up and so on and so forth, for these people religion was the driving force behind all their wrong doings.

I have NO problem with anyone believing whatever the fuck they want as long as they understand the concept of PERSONAL faith.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

This is what I understand from his homily as well. Christianity is pretty clear in its assertion that you cannot get to Heaven without accepting Christ as your saviour. I believe this goes back pretty much to the 4th century at the Council of Nicaea. In any case, the Bible is pretty clear on that point. I don't know what the Catholic church teaches nowadays in regards to the concept of purgatory, but I remember being taught that if you were "good but not quite good enough", that's where you went rather than straight to hell.

'The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!'

Seems pretty clear to me.

Unfortunately the church has since redacted the infallible one's statement.

 

[Gunslinger08]

'The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!'

Seems pretty clear to me.

Unfortunately the church has since redacted the infallible one's statement.

Redemption and salvation are different things to Catholics. Redemption is basically "free." Salvation is your choice to accept redemption. Salvation is still necessary for Heaven.