Poll: Will the Mac OS ever overtake Windows OS?

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

This is used way more than it should. Mac OSX is waaaaaaaaaaay more secure than Windows XP was. Not because it isn't popular.

You did see the MOAB didn't you?

Nothinman is right.

I'll extend on what he said.

There is an assumption that OS X is secure. That assumption has, in fact, not been validated. OS X is based on BSD but it is not BSD and the API's are closed source. OS X is not common criteria evaluated like RH enterprise linux, Solaris, and other Unix variants are (albeit at different levels).

All I'm saying is that OS X is, by and large, untested and unexposed due to a small and shielded business installation base.

 

[Nothinman]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

Originally posted by: Nothinman

But it (hardware & software compatibility) is the part that most end users care about.

And from a hardware standpoint we're already past Windows IMO. There are a few notable exceptions but overall Linux supports more hardware and it's easier to get going since there's usually no driver installation. Software's trickier because most Windows software is closed source so we can't just take it and port it. But I think we're slightly ahead in that arena too, again with the exception of some notable things like Dreamweaver, Photoshop and Win32 Games there are native Linux versions of just about everything and most of them are on par or better than their Windows counterparts.

Linux software support is horrid on some other fronts.

Photoshop >> GIMP (IMO).

Little or no CAD or engineering design apps on Linux... most closed source math/scientific apps suck balls on Linux (matlab and maple as exhibits A and B) or are not available at all.

Open Office just isn't there yet, for me... I'll stick with MS Office for at least another year or two.

I love LaTeX, but windows open source LaTeX apps are better, IMO, than those available on Linux. Right now... I have to use Word anyhow.

For the foreseeable future, I'll be mixing both linux and windows.

As you said, all of those are your opinion. And since I don't have much of a need for any of those apps in my day to day home computer usage it doesn't really matter to me. =)

That assumption has, in fact, not been validated

Actually the MOAB has invalided it pretty handily.

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: drag

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Linux will not be replacing Windows on the desktop for a long time if ever, because paid full time developers > hobbyist develops who wright software on their free time. Most Linux developers do not have the resources to throroughly beta test their software and test it on many different hardware/software configurations. In consequence, a lot of software/hardware can be very difficult to install and get working properly.

I take it you never done large amounts of Windows installs on random hardware before haven't you?

The vast majority of people dont' install their operating systems. They don't know often what a operating system _is_, much less how to download a ISO image, burn it to a DVD and install it.

Linux is not going to be suitable for the average home user until you find Linux pre-installed on machines in the sort and by large makers PLUS have the resources locally to support Linux.

The other week I was driving to the store and one of my neighbors had a 'Geek Patrol' VW in their driveway. The small computer store by my old house would charge people 75 dollars to reinstall windows or 200 dollars to clean off the malware (of which some people actually paid)

You go to a community college and there are going to be rooms full of people struggling to get to grips with how Windows and Microsoft Office works. Your taught how to use Windows in grade school, you'll use it in high school and it's required in college.

None of that exists for Linux.

_Thats_ why Linux isn't going to go mainstream desktop any time soon.

A Windows install on random hardware is far more likely to be trouble free than a linux install on random hardware.

When your average Joe Sixpack decides to try Linux, it's likely to result in extreme frustration. Partially because he's not educated in Linux like you said, but also because he's practically guaranteed to run into things that do not install/run like they're supposed to.

On my last Linux install, my sound did not work because the sound card was set to digital out by default (even though maybe 1% of people use digital out). Simple solution, but difficult to track down the problem. Also, when I installed the Nvidia drivers, they set the refresh rate too high for my monitor resulting in a blank screen. This was extremely frustrating because I could only boot into Linux in command prompt meaning no web browser, so I had to go back and forth between linux and Windows, researching my problem and editing xorg.conf. When I installed mythtv, it didn't work because the version in the Ubuntu repositories was incompatible with the newest mysql.

Problems like this just don't come up nearly as often in windows. Generally, if you want some software on your computer, you go to the manufacturers website, find it, and download it, and install it, and it installs flawlessly 99% of the time. It's very logical, and the install wizard tells you everything you need to know as you're doing it. It's extremely rare to need to hunt down a howto guide to install something in Windows, but all too common in Linux.

It's true that the average user does nothing but websurf, IM, use office programs, etc., and this is just as easy in Linux as Windows once it's set up. These users are not going to be doing much in the way of administrating their systems, but SOMEBODY has to administer them, be it a techy friend or a local computer shop, and administrating a Linux system is much more difficult, even if you disregard the fact the people are generally more educated in Windows.

 

[Sunner]

Vserver has been around for a very long time now. Both Vserver and OpenVZ have been around before Zones, although OpenVZ has been part of a propriatory produce for most of it (Virtuozzo).

I've run Vserver on Debian. It's pretty easy to setup and you'd just end up using a Debian scripts that uses debootstrap to install a new system and does all the intial configurations. (also I didn't bother with the configuration, I just used command line switches to override the defaults) The only problem with any program that I ran into was just that Bind is trying to hard to be smart and ending up very stupid.

Well, I'm definitely gonna be checking VServer out since Debian has a VS kernel in their repo.
Anyways, seeing as I've not used VServer it would be pointless to sit around and do a "Feature duel", but trust me, dissing Solaris 10 unless you've used it in a major environment would be a mistake, Sun seems to have learned a lot from their past mistakes, or they just got lucky this time around, but it's a very nice OS to work with.
They even managed to get a secure-by-default thing going :Q

 

[ForumMaster]

not unless apple releases it from the hold of it's hardware. if apple licenses the OS, it could rapidly take market share away from windows. will it ever be the top dog? hard to say. but there is not question that it is a superior OS.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: ForumMaster
not unless apple releases it from the hold of it's hardware. if apple licenses the OS, it could rapidly take market share away from windows. will it ever be the top dog? hard to say. but there is not question that it is a superior OS.

Actually that's a HUGE question, Mt Everest huge in fact.

And Apple, just like Sun, is a hardware company, Mac OS X is a perk you get when you buy their hardware, they make their money on the latter.

 

[drag]

A Windows install on random hardware is far more likely to be trouble free than a linux install on random hardware.

ha. That's what you think.

I've never met a peice of hardware I can't get working in Linux. I've had computers that had driver conflicts that wouldn't work unless I swapped out hardware.

Also what OS your talking about?

XP? That's pretty good.

Windows 2000.. oh, not so much anymore.
XP-64, never. Even if you have 64bit hardware.
Windows 2003? mhahaha.
Vista? Better hope that Dell considured your new PC 'Vista-ready'.

In fact that's why I just learned to LOVE Vista.

You see on my Linux box I can run full 3D desktop.. transparancies, exploding windows, spinning cubes. Whatever you want. (hint: it's fully configurable) with Intel onboard video.

A gig of RAM is a huge amount of memory for me. 512 is perfect for a full featured desktop, not even a struggle or anything. #d desktop, integrated search, blah blah blah.
So that means that a crapload of cheap computers are going to be aviable to me to run Linux or BSD or whatever I want that all you Windows folks are going to get rid of because they aren't going to be able to run your base operating system (or just barely run it), much less your video games.

Seriously. Vista kicks-ass. It's unbelievable.

Here is another trick for you. Install Linux on one computer. Pull the harddrive and plug it into a completely different computer. Worst case is that you'd have to edit: /boot/grub/menu.lst, /etc/fstab, and /etc/X11/xorg.conf files. It'll work, 9 times out of ten without even that. (Plus it helps to know what your doing.)

Try doing that with Windows.

If that's not impressive, then you've never looked at Knoppix before.

(btw everything I mentioned before is aviable in Debian main if your running etch.. and most of it is in stable)

Well, I'm definitely gonna be checking VServer out since Debian has a VS kernel in their repo.
Anyways, seeing as I've not used VServer it would be pointless to sit around and do a "Feature duel", but trust me, dissing Solaris 10 unless you've used it in a major environment would be a mistake, Sun seems to have learned a lot from their past mistakes, or they just got lucky this time around, but it's a very nice OS to work with.

Didn't say it wasn't. Like I said before ZFS and Zones are nice because they seem very easy to use, but not becuase they realy do anything new or remarkable. There are a few things that ZFS can do that you can't accomplish on Linux, but not realy that much.

But Dtrace on the other hand... That's something special.

They even managed to get a secure-by-default thing going

Only if your running the very latest version were Telnet is disabled by default.

Otherwise if telnet isn't turned off, try logging in with the username
-fbin

 

[Sunner]

I was actually referring to their new SMF profile in U3

 

[Solema]

It seems to be pretty simple to me:

Linux will never be mainstream until EVERYTHING a normal user would do can be done without the use of the command line. The fact that even distros like Ubuntu require convoluted commands sometimes just to install something as simple as display drivers is proof enough that "Joe Computer Retailer" won't be selling a Linux machine to the next 40-year-old n00b who walks in the door.

As for Apple, it's obvious their closed hardware and limited selection are what really hinders them. Now I wouldn't expect Apple to open their OS to other hardware manufacturers, but it still doesn't excuse their complete lack of options when it comes to their hardware.

Take for example a friend of mine. He had recently built a PC and got a nice Dell 2407WFP and he played games. Then he got a MacBook, fell in love with OSX, and decided to get an iMac, since the Mac Mini's are pathetically underpowered and the Mac Pro's are ridiculously overpowered and expensive. Now he's forced to buy ANOTHER LCD since it's forced on him with the iMac, and he has to find someone to buy his 2407WFP so he can pay his dad back the money he borrowed.

Why does Apple have to force EVERYTHING on the consumer? I'd be willing to bet that if Apple introduced a "Mac Standard" using some elements of the Mac Pro (like the case) but with a single-socket, standard DDR2 design, that a TON of people would jump at it. I know this because I would, and many of my friends would. But there are MANY people that just don't want to invest in new everything just to get into the "Mac Experience."

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

But there are games for all platforms, the fact that you only want to play Windows games is beside the point.

Only Windows games? Now your talking semantics. Windows games dominate the computer market. If I go down the current list of the 25 best sellers how many many do you think have a native Linux version?

And I believe USB webcams were the target of one of those new standards, but I'm not 100% sure since I don't care about webcams and it was mentioned in a thread on another topic.

You might not have a desire to use a webcam but they are fairly popular and getting more popular every day.

 

[Solema]

The Mac ad with the webcam strapped to the guy's head was amusing. I guess Apple missed the whole advantage of being able to choose ANY webcam you want for the PC (which are as simple as plugging into USB and putting the installation CD in), rather than being stuck with (and paying for) whatever quality webcam Apple thinks you should have in their iMacs.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Solema
The Mac ad with the webcam strapped to the guy's head was amusing. I guess Apple missed the whole advantage of being able to choose ANY webcam you want for the PC (which are as simple as plugging into USB and putting the installation CD in), rather than being stuck with (and paying for) whatever quality webcam Apple thinks you should have in their iMacs.

Yes, that and being able to pickup your webcam off your monitor/desk and move it around to show other things in the room. Or being able to put your webcam somewhere other than right on the LCD frame for better light/picture. Being integrated has it's benefits but IMO there's more drawbacks.

 

[Nothinman]

Only Windows games? Now your talking semantics. Windows games dominate the computer market. If I go down the current list of the 25 best sellers how many many do you think have a native Linux version?

It's still correct, just like there are Mac games and Linux games available.

You might not have a desire to use a webcam but they are fairly popular and getting more popular every day.

And if Gaim 2.0 ever gets released and works alright they'll have a use in Linux too.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
It's still correct, just like there are Mac games and Linux games available.

Sure there are but how many of those are commercial games and Mac and/or Linux only? I'm guessing nearly all of them have Windows versions as well. Ask your self this... If someone came to you and said they are a hard core gamer - would you recommend Linux or a Mac?

And if Gaim 2.0 ever gets released and works alright they'll have a use in Linux too.

Video in Linux versions of Gaim or Skype would make me happy.

 

[Nothinman]

Sure there are but how many of those are commercial games and Mac and/or Linux only? I'm guessing nearly all of them have Windows versions as well. Ask your self this... If someone came to you and said they are a hard core gamer - would you recommend Linux or a Mac?

Of course not, I'd recommend an XBox360.

Video in Linux versions of Gaim or Skype would make me happy.

Supposedly it's on the TODO list for Gaim 3.0, but who knows how long that'll take.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
Of course not, I'd recommend an XBox360.

I have one. As a gaming system I give it a 'meh'. It's cool playing on a large widescreen TV but the games have 'jaggies' that are really annoying after years of high-end PC gaming. The games are good though - I love the hockey and Gears of War is cool (COOP!) but playing a FPS on a controller just doesn't cut it. To be honest the only reason I don't sell it is I added the HD-DVD drive and it's AWESOME. It will be cool for my wife to stream music through the home theater as well.

Supposedly it's on the TODO list for Gaim 3.0, but who knows how long that'll take.

Yeah, I've seen a LOT of requests for video support. Even seen complainers whining about it taking so long. WTF? It's *FREE* software. :roll: Hopefully they get it done soon. Until then I just use the Windows.

 

[Nothinman]

I have one. As a gaming system I give it a 'meh'. It's cool playing on a large widescreen TV but the games have 'jaggies' that are really annoying after years of high-end PC gaming. The games are good though - I love the hockey and Gears of War is cool (COOP!) but playing a FPS on a controller just doesn't cut it. To be honest the only reason I don't sell it is I added the HD-DVD drive and it's AWESOME. It will be cool for my wife to stream music through the home theater as well.

I generally have a better time playing something like Tiger Woods on a 360 than a PC, I'm not into FPSes any more so that doesn't really matter but I do agree that playing them with a controller sucks.

Yeah, I've seen a LOT of requests for video support. Even seen complainers whining about it taking so long. WTF? It's *FREE* software. Hopefully they get it done soon. Until then I just use the Windows.

Well from a little googling it looks like some people got fed up and forked gaim-vv to add voice and video support and now that's supposedly being folded back into Gaim.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I generally have a better time playing something like Tiger Woods on a 360 than a PC, I'm not into FPSes any more so that doesn't really matter but I do agree that playing them with a controller sucks.

I used to play FPS's all the time. Now I only play those that have coop and I never play alone (single player). I've picked up some really good FPS's but never even come close to finishing. I get bored, stuck, or lose interest and quit.

Well from a little googling it looks like some people got fed up and forked gaim-vv to add voice and video support and now that's supposedly being folded back into Gaim.

I just checked my Gaim in Ubuntu. I'm running 2.0.0beta3.1. From looking at the Gaim website it looks like it's over 4 months old. They're up to 2.0.0beta6 right now. Wonder why Ubuntu hasn't updated the repos with a new version yet?

 

[Nothinman]

I just checked my Gaim in Ubuntu. I'm running 2.0.0beta3.1. From looking at the Gaim website it looks like it's over 4 months old. They're up to 2.0.0beta6 right now. Wonder why Ubuntu hasn't updated the repos with a new version yet?

I doubt it really matters, I just checked and I'm using beta5 here in sid.

 

[rajasekharan]

in 5 years time Linux is going to be equal or overtake MS in india , in my state "Kerala" govt has already introduced Linux in schools . almost every one Dual boots now . now if MS goes with current over priced strategy . and takes more measure against piracy . i see less hope in them in here . Linux is growing every day here . we came up with new o.s last month most are getting ported to Linux fast .

 

[gwag]

Originally posted by: Solema


I'd be willing to bet that if Apple introduced a "Mac Standard" using some elements of the Mac Pro (like the case) but with a single-socket, standard DDR2 design, that a TON of people would jump at it. I know this because I would, and many of my friends would. But there are MANY people that just don't want to invest in new everything just to get into the "Mac Experience."

I'll agree with you there big time, they can be very short sighted a "mac" would sell like hotcakes.