Poll: Who is to blame for Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

[EagleKeeper]

As a result of negotiations at Camp David and Taba, Israel offered to turn over 97% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, as well as Arab sections of Jerusalem.

Question: Does anyone know why this offer was turned down by the Palestinians?

The sponsors of the Palestinians stated that it had to be all or nothing.

The Palestinians felt that they should have it all, anything less was an acknowledgement that Israel should exist and was being rewarded for winning the Arab-Israeli wars

Supposedly water rights is a excuse that has also been used - but it was more about ego than anything else. Water control can be worked out by peaceful neighbors. Not by those that want to stay enemies.

 

[shortylickens]

Bush.

 

[child of wonder]

As a result of negotiations at Camp David and Taba, Israel offered to turn over 97% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, as well as Arab sections of Jerusalem.

Question: Does anyone know why this offer was turned down by the Palestinians?

Israel offered to turn over 94% of the West Bank and other land equal to 3% of the West Bank for a total land area equal to 97% of the size of the West Bank.

However, without researching this any further, I'm sure the reason the deal was rejected was over Jerusalem. It's always about Jerusalem.

 

[her209]

Israel offered to turn over 94% of the West Bank and other land equal to 3% of the West Bank for a total land area equal to 97% of the size of the West Bank.

However, without researching this any further, I'm sure the reason the deal was rejected was over Jerusalem. It's always about Jerusalem.

My understanding is that it was rejected because it was not contiguous.

 

[dainthomas]

My understanding is that the excuse given for it being rejected was because it was not contiguous.

Fixed.

The actual reason is that the original (and current, for that matter) charters of the PLO and Hamas deny Israel's right to exist at all.

 

[QuantumPion]

My understanding is that it was rejected because it was not contiguous.

No, the main contention was that Arafat was demanding the so-called "right of return" aka property confiscation of Israeli citizens to Arabs. It is basically the equivalent of a native American tribe today demanding to have returned to them the entire state of New York, e.g. it was a ridiculous poison-pill demand designed to tank the peace talks.

 

[SamurAchzar]

No, the main contention was that Arafat was demanding the so-called "right of return" aka property confiscation of Israeli citizens to Arabs. It is basically the equivalent of a native American tribe today demanding to have returned to them the entire state of New York, e.g. it was a ridiculous poison-pill demand designed to tank the peace talks.

Even without a property grab (which frankly I don't think Arafat insisted on), the problem was that if Palestinians massively immigrate to Israel, the demographical balance would shift to the Arab sides, which means Israel will either cease being a democracy (becoming an actual Apartheid state, not the propaganda "Apartheid state" it is accused of being now), or there will be TWO Palestinian states (Palestine and Israel).

Jerusalem wasn't an issue, Barak agreed to split it (returning to pre-67 condition).

I am not aware of any Palestinian leader to publicly say they will let go on the notion of refugees return to Israel. Without that, the issue will never, ever be solved.

 

[theeedude]

No, the main contention was that Arafat was demanding the so-called "right of return" aka property confiscation of Israeli citizens to Arabs. It is basically the equivalent of a native American tribe today demanding to have returned to them the entire state of New York, e.g. it was a ridiculous poison-pill demand designed to tank the peace talks.

It's basically the equivalent of Zionism. You know, right of return of Jews to Israel. Except that Palestinians actually have some ancestral claim to the land, unlike Askenasi jews whose ancestors were from Europe and converted to Judaism

 

[bfdd]

It's basically the equivalent of Zionism. You know, right of return of Jews to Israel. Except that Palestinians actually have some ancestral claim to the land, unlike Askenasi jews whose ancestors were from Europe and converted to Judaism

So every Jew in Israel is from a European ancestor that converted to Judaism? Because I'm pretty sure I've met(and work with) Israeli's who look nothing like Europeans and not much different from the other peoples of the region.

 

[theeedude]

So every Jew in Israel is from a European ancestor that converted to Judaism? Because I'm pretty sure I've met(and work with) Israeli's who look nothing like Europeans and not much different from the other peoples of the region.

How does that contradict what I said about Ashkenasi Jews?

 

[wirelessenabled]

Obviously the terrorist group and not the country trying to stop that terrorist group from launching rockets at their cities.

Do you really have to ask this question?

Yeah the Israeli Air Force/Navy wears uniforms. I guess they can't be called "terrorists" because of that, even if some of their actions are indistinguishable from the actions of the Arab "terrorists".

Israel doesn't have to rely on explosive belts etc. They have nice F16/F15 with cluster bombs, supplied by the US taxpayer to make their points.

My answer to the poll is that they are all F***ing nuts. Jews were labeled the "terrorists" from late 1800's through 1947 and since 1947 Arabs/Palestinians have been labeled the "terrorists".

Keep in mind that the label "terrorist" has only to do with the political view of the day. I am sure that King George III and his ministers would have labeled the American revolutionaries "terrorists" in 1760-1790 because they skulked behind trees with rifles and sniped at the redcoat columns and refused battle in an open field as the Europeans of the day were used to. The American tactics were completely foreign and "unfair" to the poor British redcoats hence the Americans were "terrorists". Of course when the VC skulked behind trees with rifles and sniped at the American columns they were the "terrorists".

To solve a conflict like this both sides need to give. In this case both sides somehow think they can gain some measure of advantage over the other and hence the conflict continues.

 

[Noobtastic]

this poll confirms the majority of people don't buy into the anti-israeli media or muslim outrage.

not only does support for israel greatly outnumber support for israel's enemies, but those who don't support support tend to be indifferent to the whole conflict entirely.

those who support hamas, are merely a vocal minority.

perhaps we should cut down on the israel-palestine threads, it's becoming extremely redundant.

maybe have a sticky about israel/palestine if it is such a big deal.

Israel doesn't have to rely on explosive belts etc. They have nice F16/F15 with cluster bombs, supplied by the US taxpayer to make their points.

you are a fool.

israel attacking terrorists is not the same as palestinians blowing up their children.

israel's anti-terror policies is more than consistent with any of its critics. tell me which leader should israel try to emulate?

please, im waiting.

It's basically the equivalent of Zionism. You know, right of return of Jews to Israel. Except that Palestinians actually have some ancestral claim to the land, unlike Askenasi jews whose ancestors were from Europe and converted to Judaism

even if we assume your interpretation, which is not based on facts - so what?

we as americans have no ancestrol claims to north america, yet we are here, thriving, on land we stole and killed 15,000,000 natives in the process.

should we pack our bags and leave?

in the end we all come from africa. the "right of return" has failed miserably in international courts, every people that have tried has lost.

palestinians forfeited their right to any peace of israel when they started hijacking airplanes and torching embassies.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What I'll never understand is why people are so quick to defend members of a religion that advocates the suppression of women and opposes freedom of speech.

Sadly, I cannot think of a solution to the Arab-Israeli problem other than for either the Palestinians or the Israelis to be completely relocated. I like the idea of taking a sparsely populated state, paying the Americans to move out of it, and then giving it to Israel. The costs of compensating and relocating Americans to other states might be worthwhile. I know, it will never happen and the Israelis will never agree to give up their little chunk of the Unholy land.

 

[Noobtastic]

What I'll never understand is why people are so quick to defend members of a religion that advocates the suppression of women and opposes freedom of speech.

Sadly, I cannot think of a solution to the Arab-Israeli problem other than for either the Palestinians or the Israelis to be completely relocated. I like the idea of taking a sparsely populated state, paying the Americans to move out of it, and then giving it to Israel. The costs of compensating and relocating Americans to other states might be worthwhile. I know, it will never happen and the Israelis will never agree to give up their little chunk of the Unholy land.

the muslim states are one the most oppressive and backwards on the planet, yet raging leftists support their bigoted war against israel because they are spoon-fed regurgited soviet propaganda that they were victim to zionist aggression 1948 and thus they get to oppress jews and kill thousands of people in a revenge-based conflict.

that is the leftist logic in a nut-shell.

the left doesn't spend a lot of time defending the palestinians independent of israel. you can't.

they contribute nothing to humanity. if israel suddenly disappeared they would be just as pathetic.

the left is all about "struggle." they hate the US, israel is an extension of Us foreign policy, thus israel sucks.

israel is an opponent of the west, which the left opposes - so israel must go.

the palestinians are originally an extension of soviet foreign policy, and now iranian foreign policy - both historic enemies of the west, and thus they must be supported.

whether or not they are barabric terrorists who spoon-feed their children antisemitic garbage is not relevant.

they hide behind moral buzzwords, but support the most immoral people on the planet.

Unreal.

 

[Zebo]

Mohammad - who invented Islam -a Total Belief-System that that creates a rift between Believer and Unbeliever, Muslim and Infidel, and a state of permanent war must exist. Muslims not only have a right but a duty to spread and make Islam dominant. Jews buying all that land does not matter Islam must dominate. Jews historical claims, only have 1/800th of land in ME and being chased out of every other ME country, does not matter Islam must dominate.

 

[bfdd]

How does that contradict what I said about Ashkenasi Jews?

How do Jews, regardless of genetic lineage, have less say to the area than Palestinians? Last I checked that area was established as a Jewish kingdom long before anyone had even coined the term "palestinian."

 

[QuantumPion]

It's basically the equivalent of Zionism. You know, right of return of Jews to Israel.

They didn't have a "right" to return to Israel. They had money, and bought worthless land from greedy Arabs that thought they were suckers.

Except that Palestinians actually have some ancestral claim to the land

Arabs took palestine from the Byzantine Empire, that is as far back as their claim on the land goes. The Jews are the oldest surviving culture to have an original "ancestral claim".

unlike Askenasi jews whose ancestors were from Europe and converted to Judaism

What?

 

[Patranus]

Not to you. You are firmly in the partisan hack category.

I am a "partisan hack" because I don't support terrorists?

Nice to know your position.

 

[theeedude]

How do Jews, regardless of genetic lineage, have less say to the area than Palestinians? Last I checked that area was established as a Jewish kingdom long before anyone had even coined the term "palestinian."

If you convert to Catholicism, do you have a land claim to the Vatican?

 

[bfdd]

If you convert to Catholicism, do you have a land claim to the Vatican?

... i think you just went full retard.

 

[wirelessenabled]

you are a fool.

israel attacking terrorists is not the same as palestinians blowing up their children.

israel's anti-terror policies is more than consistent with any of its critics. tell me which leader should israel try to emulate?

please, im waiting.

You exactly make my point. Palestinians are "terrorists" so Israel can do whatever it wants to them. "Terrorists" have no rights. Your political persuasion has labeled which side is called "terrorists"

Dead is dead whether you are killed by a 2000 lb bomb or by an explosive belt. Humans kill each other by the means they have available, justifying it by their own political view. Israel happens to have modern weapons while the Palestinians are stuck using explosive belts. Both factions are pursuing their political objectives, or maybe their leader's political objectives. The means available to the two sides are quite different.

Your viewpoint reminds me of the response to Al Qaida or some such group killing people with swords. Meanwhile the US is killing people with high explosive and burning phosphorus. Result is the same to the individual and family, dead is dead.

I may be a fool, but your ignorance of history, use of meaningless labels, and unwillingness to process the available information is appalling. Your political viewpoint apparently filters all information that gets to your brain so you are unable to see the situation for what it is.

 

[linkgoron]

It's basically the equivalent of Zionism. You know, right of return of Jews to Israel. Except that Palestinians actually have some ancestral claim to the land, unlike Askenasi jews whose ancestors were from Europe and converted to Judaism

Have fun

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC18733/?tool=pmcentrez

In summary, the combined results suggest that a major portion of NRY biallelic diversity present in most of the contemporary Jewish communities surveyed here traces to a common Middle Eastern source population several thousand years ago. The implication is that this source population included a large number of distinct paternal and maternal lineages, reflecting genetic variation established in the Middle East at that time. In turn, this source diversity has been maintained within Jewish communities, despite numerous migrations during the Diaspora and long-term residence as isolated subpopulations in numerous geographic locations outside of the Middle East.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I'm pretty surprised by the numbers in this poll... Either some people do a pretty good job defending Israel's point, or that the ATPN is much less Liberal leaning than I thought

 

[CKent]

I'm pretty surprised by the numbers in this poll... Either some people do a pretty good job defending Israel's point, or that the ATPN is much less Liberal leaning than I thought

ATPN is pretty balanced compared to many forums out there, and with far fewer radicals than some.

I feel the palestinaians are mostly to blame, although Israel sometimes does - and understandably so - overreact.

I find it particularly amusing that religion, something which was in part invented to help us overcome our basal animal instincts - is used by both sides to justify fighting it out like animals.

 

[piasabird]

Just look at how Isreal has improved its land and how the Palestinians have spent all their time trying to destroy Isreal. Who has the better ideas?