Poll: Which political party do you identify with?

[dmcowen674]

"Which political party do you identify with?"

None of the above. This "Party" or Good ol Boys clubs in bunch of sh1t.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Ornery there are some big differences between Harry Browne and Bush. First of all Browne wants to withdraw American troops from foreign countries, Bush doesn't. Browne wants to end the war on drugs, Bush doesn't. Browne wants to end social security, Bush doesn't. Browne wants to completely repeal the income tax and not replace it, Bush doesn't.

Here's the quote on his position on taxes:

# Tax policy:
# Position provided directly to SelectSmart.com by Mr. Browne: "I would make government so small that we can repeal the income tax and not replace it."

Sounds good in theory, but exactly where would they get the money for national defense?
Or do they just think that if we are isolationists everyone would leave us alone.

If we pulled all our troops out of Taiwan, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Japan and numerous other countries we wouldn't have to spend so much on national defense.

i·so·la·tion·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-lsh-nzm)
n.

A national policy of abstaining from political or economic relations with other countries.

The Libertarian platform wants to do away with all tarrifs and trade regulations. This is the opposite of isolationism.

I realize that it would be cheaper.
But it would still be an expense just to provide for our own defense.
Where would that money come from if not from income tax revenues?

And if we did away with all tariffs and trade regulations, does that mean ALL our jobs would go to India and China instead of just some of them?

I strongly disagree with pulling our troops out of those countries.
Taiwan would be part of China if we pulled out.
South Korea would be part of N. Korea if we pulled out.

Other countries spend far less on defense and they seem to get by just fine. If income taxes were repealed there would still be sales taxes and corporate taxes. This would bring in a few hundred billion a year to the government which, in my opinion is plenty.

Not all our jobs would go to India and China because services here must be provided by Americans. You can't export a taxi cab job for instance. As it is now the laws that deal with tarrifs and international trade are very complex (like the tax code) and benefits are given to those who have the most powerful lobbies in Congress. Its ridiculous.

The U.S. could pull out of these countries and still threaten military action against N. Korea and China. We don't have to have huge numbers of troops sitting there all the time. This is what a modern military is about, putting force where it is needed when it is needed.

 

[Ornery]

My cut and paste post, was in reference to the vast difference between Democrats and Libertarians. The GOP is FAR closer. You put up a viable Libertarian candidate, and I'll vote for them. However, I learned my lesson about throwing my vote away back in '92, by voting for Perot. I'm glad some Democrats found out how I felt, when they voted for Nader in 2000. I'll NEVER do it again!

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Other countries spend far less on defense and they seem to get by just fine. If income taxes were repealed there would still be sales taxes and corporate taxes. This would bring in a few hundred billion a year to the government which, in my opinion is plenty.

Not all our jobs would go to India and China because services here must be provided by Americans. You can't export a taxi cab job for instance. As it is now the laws that deal with tarrifs and international trade are very complex (like the tax code) and benefits are given to those who have the most powerful lobbies in Congress. Its ridiculous.

The U.S. could pull out of these countries and still threaten military action against N. Korea and China. We don't have to have huge numbers of troops sitting there all the time. This is what a modern military is about, putting force where it is needed when it is needed.

Sales taxes go to the states.
Do libertarians believe in a national sales tax????

Corporate taxes ARE income taxes.
And contrary to what a lot of liberals seem to think, the people pay all corporate taxes indirectly so it is no different than having a personal income tax.

I understand the idea of having a smaller government and reducing taxes. I just don't see how it would ever be possible to eliminate the income tax without completely doing away with the military.

That's why my opinion on libertarians is that I agree in principle with many of their fundamental ideas, but their lack of moderation in these goals makes them nothing more than pipe dreams. That is why I consider them to be extremists and unelectable.

 

[conjur]

Where's the option for "I vote based on issues...not party line"?

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: conjur
Where's the option for "I vote based on issues...not party line"?

This is P&N buddy, not OT.
Take a side or get the fvck out.

j/k

 

[Feldenak]

Registered Republican but I find myself leaning more towards the Libertarian party views.

 

[Jalapeno]

"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag." --David Letterman

Haha! I like that!

 

[fwtong]

I voted for "results" I identify with that political party the best.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Other countries spend far less on defense and they seem to get by just fine. If income taxes were repealed there would still be sales taxes and corporate taxes. This would bring in a few hundred billion a year to the government which, in my opinion is plenty.

Not all our jobs would go to India and China because services here must be provided by Americans. You can't export a taxi cab job for instance. As it is now the laws that deal with tarrifs and international trade are very complex (like the tax code) and benefits are given to those who have the most powerful lobbies in Congress. Its ridiculous.

The U.S. could pull out of these countries and still threaten military action against N. Korea and China. We don't have to have huge numbers of troops sitting there all the time. This is what a modern military is about, putting force where it is needed when it is needed.

Sales taxes go to the states.
Do libertarians believe in a national sales tax????

Corporate taxes ARE income taxes.
And contrary to what a lot of liberals seem to think, the people pay all corporate taxes indirectly so it is no different than having a personal income tax.

I understand the idea of having a smaller government and reducing taxes. I just don't see how it would ever be possible to eliminate the income tax without completely doing away with the military.

That's why my opinion on libertarians is that I agree in principle with many of their fundamental ideas, but their lack of moderation in these goals makes them nothing more than pipe dreams. That is why I consider them to be extremists and unelectable.

I think that a lot of libertarians simply want taxes repealed, not replaced. However, many are willing to settle for a national sales tax on the principle that it is less invasive and a lot less costly to comply with and to enforce.

The military would have to decrease in size no doubt about that but no one is saying that it would be done completely away with. The government spends hundreds of billions of dollars a year on the military, cutting it back is not an extreme view contrary to what Republicans will tell you.

Well like I have said before, if the voters actually had to pay out of pocket for the programs that the politicians they voted for enact there would be many more libertarians in congress. One of the biggest problems with government as mentioned in one of my old economic textbooks is that those who pay for government services are not the ones who receive them. In other words, in the private economy you get what you pay for. With government you may very well get what you don't pay for. This is exemplified best with social security, millions of old people will receive far more in social security benefits than they ever paid into the system. And guess what? These old people are the largest voting block there is, is this a coincidence? I think not.

Is libertarianism a pipe dream? Under the current circumstances it may very well be. However, technology may force government to adopt libertarian principles. Alternative, private currencies are springing up and have sprung up all over the Internet and these strike at the heart of government power. These currencies are private not only in the sense that they are issued by a private (usually offshore) entity but they are also private in that the government cannot eavesdrop in on who has what. Encryption and the Internet are fueling this monetary evolution. Once the evolution is complete the government will no longer be able to levy a tax based on income and the collectivist ideals that are held by the Democratic Party and other left wing political parties will no longer be attainable.

This concept is discussed in greater detail in Richard Rahn's book The End of Money and the Struggle for Financial Privacy. You can pick up a copy for about $3 on Amazon. Link

 

[acebake]

As a general rule, I'm a Republican, but there's issues on both sides that I like.

 

[Ferocious]

Bush is as opposite from Libertarian as you can get.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Bush is as opposite from Libertarian as you can get.

Besides kerry.

CkG

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Bush is as opposite from Libertarian as you can get.

That's retarded. They both agree on:

• MINORITY ISSUES
  GAY RIGHTS
  GUN CONTROL
  HEALTH CARE
  SOCIAL SECURITY
  TAX POLICY...

Democrats are 180 degrees from Libertarians!

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Ornery

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Bush is as opposite from Libertarian as you can get.

That's retarded. They both agree on:

• MINORITY ISSUES
  GAY RIGHTS
  GUN CONTROL
  HEALTH CARE
  SOCIAL SECURITY
  TAX POLICY...

Democrats are 180 degrees from Libertarians!

WRONG!! Libertarians want social security completely done away with. Bush and other conservatives love social security. Also, like I said before a lot of libertarians want the income tax repealed and the IRS abolished. I haven't ever heard any republican president say they wanted this done.

Conservatives != Libertarians. Not by a looooooooooooooooong shot. There are a few issues they agree on like gun control but that's about it.

 

[Dragnov]

I'm a registered Democrat but ideologically more Republican.
The Republican Party machine unfortunately spews out officials who are too hardcore conservative for me.

Example: I'm not for/against gay marriage, but constitutional amendment? Fsck that!
The Republican Party is making me vote Democrat, damn them.

As far as independents. No thanks. They are too blind calling for the abolishment of political parties themselves (some claim they are too close to each other, yet they say certain parties are too extreme). Despite what their ignorance tells them, political parties have an extremely important role in government which has been shown throughout history.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Gr1mL0cK
I'm a registered Democrat but ideologically more Republican.
The Republican Party machine unfortunately spews out officials who are too hardcore conservative for me.

Example: I'm not for/against gay marriage, but constitutional amendment? Fsck that!
The Republican Party is making me vote Democrat, damn them.

As far as independents. No thanks. They are too blind calling for the abolishment of political parties themselves (some claim they are too close to each other, yet they say certain parties are too extreme). Despite what their ignorance tells them, political parties have an extremely important role in government which has been shown throughout history.

The Republican party may talk tough but in reality there isn't much difference between Republicans and Democrats, trust me.

 

[Ornery]

WRONG!! Libertarians want social security completely done away with. Bush and other conservatives love social security. Also, like I said before a lot of libertarians want the income tax repealed and the IRS abolished. I haven't ever heard any republican president say they wanted this done.

Conservatives != Libertarians. Not by a looooooooooooooooong shot. There are a few issues they agree on like gun control but that's about it.

The GOP also wants SS done away with, but that's not feasable. Next best thing is privatization.

Tax policy:

• "This is not only no new taxes, this is tax cuts, so help me God," Bush said, promoting his proposal for a $483 billion tax cut package.
  
  Supports cuts in marginal tax rates and a fairer system. Called for reducing the death tax Supports reducing the marriage penalty. Supports tax incentives to encourage charitable giving.

Not only making doable promises, but keeping them. That's as close as it's going to get. The Dems are 180 degrees away, the GOP is MUCH closer, and the ONLY viable alternative.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Ornery

WRONG!! Libertarians want social security completely done away with. Bush and other conservatives love social security. Also, like I said before a lot of libertarians want the income tax repealed and the IRS abolished. I haven't ever heard any republican president say they wanted this done.

Conservatives != Libertarians. Not by a looooooooooooooooong shot. There are a few issues they agree on like gun control but that's about it.

The GOP also wants SS done away with, but that's not feasable. Next best thing is privatization.

Tax policy:

• "This is not only no new taxes, this is tax cuts, so help me God," Bush said, promoting his proposal for a $483 billion tax cut package.
  
  Supports cuts in marginal tax rates and a fairer system. Called for reducing the death tax Supports reducing the marriage penalty. Supports tax incentives to encourage charitable giving.

Not only making doable promises, but keeping them. That's as close as it's going to get. The Dems are 180 degrees away, the GOP is MUCH closer, and the ONLY viable alternative.

The GOP may be "closer" but its not close enough. Bush may have passed tax cuts but what about the huge deficit? Cutting taxes isn't even half the equation. Libertarians want complete tax reform, doing away with the IRS completely and repealing the 16th amendment. Under Libertarian government there wouldn't be any tax incentives of any kind. The tax code would be completely erased, perhaps replaced with a national sales tax (or some other fair tax code) or perhaps not.

Let me ask you this. Why hasn't government expenditures as a percent of GDP gone down in the last few decades even under the GOP? Keep in mind that government expenditures includes the deficit. It is a much more accurate picture of the size of government than just taxes as a percent of GDP because it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that the national debt has to be paid off sometime, or at least the interest must be paid down.

Bush may have cut taxes but has he done or said anything about doing away with the IRS and repealing the 16th amendment? If he has it would certainly be news to me!

Furthermore, let's get to the topic of the Federal Reserve and the banking industry. As it is now the government enjoys a complete monopoly and it runs a banking cartel. It inflates our common currency every year reducing everyone's buying power, a hidden tax. If the Federal Reserve were a corporation (it partly is in some ways) it would be in the top 5 largest corporations in the United States (if not the world) with I believe revenues around $30 billion a year. The Fed forks something like 97% of this over to the Treasury Department but what is the difference? A tax is a tax is a tax. I don't care where the money goes or what government agency receives it.

Also, banks are given the special privilege of fractional reserve banking. This is a special right given to them by the government that secures them billions of dollars a year in interest on money that they create from nothing. You may think you are getting a good deal putting your money in a bank and earning 1% a year on your savings but news flash, you and everyone else is paying for that in inflation.

I'm not blowing smoke here. The treachery of the Federal Reserve and the government is documented and discussed in: The Case Against the Fed and What Has the Government Done to Our Money? by the prestigious economist Murray N. Rothbard as well as other economists and authors. Let me tell you the evidence is damning to say the least.

Where is the GOP candidate that is speaking out against this? Where is ANY candidate from either of the two main parties who have said that the dismantling of the Federal Reserve and government involvement in the banking industry is part of their platform? Once again, if Bush has mentioned ANYTHING against the Federal Reserve it would be news to me.

What am I getting at here? The major elements of big government including the Federal Reserve, the IRS and Social Security have not been repealed or even reduced under the leaders of either of the two main parties. Thus, to me there is barely any difference between the GOP and the Democratic Party. Both parties have perpetuated big government. To say there is a big difference between Bush and his tax cuts and a Democrat with no tax cuts is laughable to say the least.

 

[fitzhue]

Overall I agree mostly with the Green Party, but will vote Democratic.

 

[Ornery]

It doesn't matter one lick, Dissipate, if your candidate CAN'T get elected. That's the bottom line. Better to vote for a VIABLE candidate closer to your platform, than throw your vote away, and help the less desirable, viable one. Even fitzhue understands that!

Both sides agree we need jobs, first and foremost, but the Dems are hell bent on crippling businesses with red tape, regulations, and getting them to pay for more and more benefits etc. Hell, they're expecting businesses to foot the bill for their wondrous national health care system. Damn, that ought to REALLY help create more jobs! And, if they're not dicking businesses around, they're trying to bilk the people who fund businesses, out of more tax money. Great plan there!

 

[fitzhue]

Bah, it's all about tax fairness. Businesses (at least under the Bush administration) on average pay less taxes than the working man which doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Ornery]

Are you an accountant? You know this for fact? I guess you also know how much is doled out in payroll, FICA taxes, unemployment insurance and plethora of other expenses too, eh?

Without businesses, there would be no jobs. It's that simple. If you want to poison the climate for businesses, you're going to kill jobs as well.

 

[DZip]

This topic indicates that many have no idea of what a particular party stands for. Some think libertarians are the same as democrats and others think they are similar to republicans. Republicans and democrats are almost opposite in solutions. I just try to listen to the person and make my decisions based on there overall plan to lead us in the future. This country does not require anyone to be a party member to vote. We can vote our conscience on each candidate. I have voted for many candidates and they have belonged to many parties. I can't believe it when I hear someone say during a primary campaign how incompetent an opponent is and the later come out and support him or her. Did they suddenly get competent?

 

[Ornery]

Here ya go, Dave! Now you can which party fits closest to your overall plan.

• My Results:
  • 
    1. Your ideal theoretical candidate. (100%)
    2. Bush, President George W. - Republican (92%)
    3. Phillips, Howard - Constitution (36%)
    4. Kerry, Senator John, MA - Democrat (33%)
    5. Edwards, Senator John, NC - Democrat (27%)
    6. Kucinich, Rep. Dennis, OH - Democrat (17%)
    7. Dean, Gov. Howard, VT - Democrat (11%)
    8. Sharpton, Reverend Al - Democrat (6%)