Poll: Universal Health Care, Yea Or Nay?

[Ornery]

That's EXACTLY what a patent is!

Patents are intended to promote the progress of science and encourage innovation by granting a temporary monopoly to inventors.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Ornery
That's EXACTLY what a patent is!

Patents are intended to promote the progress of science and encourage innovation by granting a temporary monopoly to inventors.

So what? They'll have monopoly, just not monopoly prices. Because monopoly pricing for medicines means people will have to go without medicine. I think human lives are more important than your capitalist idealism. Maybe you should think about your sig for a second.

Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive. - William F. Buckley Jr.

To me, 41 million Americans going without insurance is a prohibitive cost.

 

[nutxo]

Heart says yes, mind says no...

 

[Vic]

I think everyone should be entitled to a brand new car every year too... but then reality slaps me in the face.

Health care and prescription drugs are products, sold for profit, just like cars.

 

[Ornery]

Look, if there was no money in it, there would be nobody doing the research and creating the drugs in the first place. At least this way, the drugs are available for a price, and when the patent runs out, it's available to everybody cheaper.

41 million Americans better get their priorities straight, if they don't have insurance. Expecting somebody else to buy it for them is pathetic. Yeah, I know, the world owes me a living... health insurance... a minimum wage...

 

[sandorski]

Choose what you want, but a few points to consider:

1) Yes, Canada's Healthcare system is heading for a crisis, but so is the US. The reasons are the same, aging populations.

2) "Entitlement" is the wrong word. There are many reasons that a Universal(or thorough Healthcare coverage for all citizens) Healthcare system is beneficial. Lowered costs to Private Business, better Worker Health, decreased stress to Citizenry, and much lower GDP costs.

3) In no way is Government provided Healthcare similar to the government giving everyone a New Car. Health is an essential part of being Productive, Healthcare is more related to Clean Water or Sewage Management then as the Luxury some make it out to be(provided that Cosmetic or other Optional surgeries are not included, unless due to trauma). BTW, Governments don't provide Cars, but they do provide an equivalent, Public Transportation.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

So what? They'll have monopoly, just not monopoly prices. Because monopoly pricing for medicines means people will have to go without medicine. I think human lives are more important than your capitalist idealism. Maybe you should think about your sig for a second.

Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive. - William F. Buckley Jr.

To me, 41 million Americans going without insurance is a prohibitive cost.

what is the benefit of a monopoly without monopoly pricing?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

That's absurd. They'll go out of business once the drugs go off patent. So they have no choice but to innovate, price caps or not.

wtf? bayer is still selling asprin. THAT hasn't been patented for damn near a century

 

[Vic]

But Sandorski, if I use more municipal water than my neighbors, I will get a higher water bill in the mail. How is that anything like Universal Health Care?

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Look, if there was no money in it, there would be nobody doing the research and creating the drugs in the first place. At least this way, the drugs are available for a price, and when the patent runs out, it's available to everybody cheaper.

41 million Americans better get their priorities straight, if they don't have insurance. Expecting somebody else to buy it for them is pathetic. Yeah, I know, the world owes me a living... health insurance... a minimum wage...

Don't crap on the 41 million Americans smart enough to know insurance is a rip off

 

[Ornery]

If my wife didn't have full coverage, I'd certainly opt for something less expensive. I'd be willing to pay for all my own medical bills 100%, with only catastrophic illnesses covered by the carrier. The premium for that ought to be reasonable.

 

[IGBT]

We need to do something...here in calif.employer paid portion of the med.coverage premium went up 20% this year..causing many contracts to be renegotiated and employees paying sky high med co-payments..and the driving force behind the esclating costs are AIDS,HIV and undocumented walk-in's...there is no free lunch or med..someone has to pay for the ones that don't...

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic
But Sandorski, if I use more municipal water than my neighbors, I will get a higher water bill in the mail. How is that anything like Universal Health Care?

True, but if you spew more sewage than your neighbours do you pay more?

Your point has merit though, it can be adressed in a number of ways:

1) Doctor visitation fees

2) A pre-determined amount of Feeless visits or no Fees for particular types of visits

My point though is that Health is not a Luxury.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I'm against full nationalization, for a national program for those that can't afford health care, against tort reform that would limit awards to patients, for tort reform that prevents fraudulant cases from being filed & heard, for holding those who allow bad doctors to keep their liscenses responsible, and for reform of damn near all aspects of the insurance industry.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: IGBT
We need to do something...here in calif.employer paid portion of the med.coverage premium went up 20% this year..causing many contracts to be renegotiated and employees paying sky high med co-payments..and the driving force behind the esclating costs are AIDS,HIV and undocumented walk-in's...there is no free lunch or med..someone has to pay for the ones that don't...

Have any proof that the increase is from AIDS, and illegals? I bet at least 10% of the increase went right into the pockets of the insurance companies.

 

[tm37]

Ok when it comes to the prices who is qualified to set them?

Also take a look at the military system and ask yourself if that is what you want for health care.

I have seen a guy sitting in the ER with blood dripping from a blood soaked towel wrapped around his hand because there just were not any beds availible. Why were there no beds. Well the people who checked in before me had a baby that had not pooped in 8 days:Q In the ER at 3AM because there is no co-pay n the ER but if they go to the clinic it costs ten bucks.

I am amazed at what people go to the general practioner for. Scaped knees, cold for one day, of the horror.

When I was groing up I went to the doctor when I was sick. If I had a cold I wpuld just stay home and rest. I do this with my kid but with a low co-pay people seem to think they can just pop in at anytime for 10-15 bucks. If my employer did not have great benifits I can assure you that I would have major medical and a MEDICAL SAVINGS ACCOUNT. Our doctor cost 85 for an office visit. I would gladly pay that in leau of paying the 700 a month aI was paying before I got this job.

 

[UpGrD]

I was talking to a major CAT scan manuf rep last week on this very subject. He told me that because of the free market HC we have in the U.S. there are more CAT scan machines in the state of Ca. than all of Western Europe and if you add Ca., Fl. and Ny, the rest of the world combined (other than the U.S.).
Just as in Eroupe, if we went to a UHC system here, you would begin to see a HC system where the very rich recieve the best HC and the rest will get what the government doles out.

"personal story"
I had a german GF years ago (I lived in Germany for 2 years), that had to wait 6 weeks to get a cyst removed from her leg. Just last week my wife had a simular cycst on her arm removed. She called our doctor in the morning and had it removed over her lunch break.

We do need to make corrections to our system (Tort reform, ect...) and provide care to those absolutly need it (the poor). Which is no where near the 45mil quoted BTW.
I'll take our current system over UHC anytime.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Ferocious
I'm against a universal health care system like the one in Canada.

However we need some kind of supplemental insurance program for WORKING Americans who cannot afford decent healthcare.

It's a damn shame that many WORKING Americans in this country can't afford decent healthcare while at the very same time they pay taxes which are in turn used to send BILLIONS in foreign aid and medical aid to foreigners.

Make it mandatory that you have to work to get free healthcare and I might not have a problem with it.

a social program with work as a criteria for being in it?!? will never happen!

That's why we have been going steadily downhill in an effort to be as socialistic as possible yet still maintaining the appearance of a democracy.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

The money is going somewhere

It sure isn't going to Doctors...

It's going to the insurance comp[anies, it's going to the f'ing tort lawyers (Like you buddy Edwards!), it's getting eaten up in overhead and regulations mandated by congress

How bout tort reform instead?

the only hope for that is Bush in a second term with a republican majority in the House and 60 republican senators...the Democrats will fight to the last lawyer/man to defend the lottery/tort system.

The other problem is the public erosion in respect for physicians...
why do you think tort lawyers are so successful..they have bred mistrust in a culture of victimhood into the american public..

grandpa died....it wasn't the boozing, the cigarettes, and the fall down the stairs late at nite, it was the doctors fault for not "making him better"..you wouldn't believe the crap that goes on..I got sued by a patient for a successful outcome to surgery!....

it's a joke, and it's not going to get fixed in my lifetime..to many lawyers...make me a goverment employee..and then it's PAYBACK TIME..i'll give you top-notch care, just don't p!ss me off or be a trial lawyer....or your gonna be waiting in line "a long time"

What do you surgest as a form of tort reform. The only thing that anyone has been able to come up with is caps on damages which to me is a really bad idea. The other option suggest was making the losers pay the winners court cost. The problem with the second is it gives people with deep pockets even more of an advatage in the courts because not only can they out spend you to win but then you would have to pay for their 17 lawyers and 27 experts.

My suggestion is a 3rd party arbitration system with a set of checks and balances so outrageous sums are overruled and frivolous lawsuits get to eat the cost.

Either that or execute people who file frivolous lawsuits as well as people at companies that knowingly lie to customers...like the Big Tobacco companies did for the longest time. And to throw some pork on my bill,also those people that reject perfectly valid rebates should be flayed alive.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic
But Sandorski, if I use more municipal water than my neighbors, I will get a higher water bill in the mail. How is that anything like Universal Health Care?

True, but if you spew more sewage than your neighbours do you pay more?

Your point has merit though, it can be adressed in a number of ways:

1) Doctor visitation fees

2) A pre-determined amount of Feeless visits or no Fees for particular types of visits

My point though is that Health is not a Luxury.

Where I live, yes, we have sewage meters too. In fact, that's roughly 3/4's of my water/sewer bill.

And yes, it is a luxury. And a product. Sold for profit. And not everyone agrees in doctors and pills. I only go to a doctor once a year, for a check-up and to get my seasonal allergy prescription renewed. I don't go everytime I get a cold or a sniffle, why should I pay for people who do?
And why should I pay for health care's biggest cost and hidden secret, unnecessary and unwanted End-of-Life care, where they keep elderly and/or terminally ill patients alive by heroic measures against the patient's will, just so they can rack up huge fees? Why should I pay for that?

Modern health care in the US has many problems. Nationalizing it isn't the answer.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Let's do something different.

For a period of one year, no one can have health care. You are allowed to spend 5k out of pocket. You may be Bill Gates, but you are not allowed to have services "donated". You can have 5k's worth of health care fair market value. Money and power does not get you better care. If you travel out of country to subvert it, you forfet a years income. If you run out, too bad.


In one year, lets have a referendum.

Ask this question of those in the top 10% of the tax brackets.


"Do you want to go another year with the current system or have universal health care?"

My prediction is that we would have it in short order.

 

[Ornery]

Gee thanks WS, that makes like zero sense. Our resident Socialists feel entitled to everything under the sun, especially if they can get somebody else to pay for it. Something tells me, if so many employers weren't paying for all this insurance, most of the high costs would be put in check. As it is, nobody shops for better prices. It's no wonder costs are going through the roof. Couple that with malpractice insurance rates, increased by ludicrous jury awards in this country, it's surprising health care is anywhere near affordable!

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Spencer278

Originally posted by: IGBT
We need to do something...here in calif.employer paid portion of the med.coverage premium went up 20% this year..causing many contracts to be renegotiated and employees paying sky high med co-payments..and the driving force behind the esclating costs are AIDS,HIV and undocumented walk-in's...there is no free lunch or med..someone has to pay for the ones that don't...

Have any proof that the increase is from AIDS, and illegals? I bet at least 10% of the increase went right into the pockets of the insurance companies.

10% isn't a "driving force"

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Let's do something different.

For a period of one year, no one can have health care. You are allowed to spend 5k out of pocket. You may be Bill Gates, but you are not allowed to have services "donated". You can have 5k's worth of health care fair market value. Money and power does not get you better care. If you travel out of country to subvert it, you forfet a years income. If you run out, too bad.


In one year, lets have a referendum.

Ask this question of those in the top 10% of the tax brackets.


"Do you want to go another year with the current system or have universal health care?"

My prediction is that we would have it in short order.

i feel dumber for reading that

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Gee thanks WS, that makes like zero sense. Our resident Socialists feel entitled to everything under the sun, especially if they can get somebody else to pay for it. Something tells me, if so many employers weren't paying for all this insurance, most of the high costs would be put in check. As it is, nobody shops for better prices. It's no wonder costs are going through the roof. Couple that with malpractice insurance rates, increased by ludicrous jury awards in this country, it's surprising health care is anywhere near affordable!

I was afraid it was too subtle.

The way this currently works is that if I make more money than you (which may be the case) my kids are effectively more "worthy" of getting health care than yours.
I think there ought to be a minimun standard of care availible to everyone, and it be dependent on ability to pay. If someone wants additional insurance, then go for it.

The people who ARE making decisions about health care are those who need to worry the least. I was wondering what would happen if the powerful suddenly lost the ability to secure health care if their perspective would change. I think they would become "socialists" overnight.

Anyway, there needs to be a LOT of reforms done. Putting healthcare into a govt run program is not how I see it. Politicians are lousy doctors. There are other ways. A panel of consumers, health care professionals and such AND NOT SUBJECT TO PARTY PRESSURE. Representatives ELECTED could nominate these people and they would serve out a term unless removed for cause. Initially, they can make an assessment of the state of health care, and come up with solutions, and present options. We could then have a referendum where the people would VOTE for a plan, and the panel charged with making it happen. Every 2 years, changes could be made given sufficient VOTES to do so.

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