Poll: Those who had a quality PUBLIC SCHOOL Education Please vote here.

[TAsunder]

Side note...

This exact issue is sort of at the center of school vouchers. The National Education Association has some great findings and articles in relation to vouchers. They are opposed to them. A harvard professor released a study relatively recently claiming that vouchers do work, but it was later found that only one grade benefited from private schools, and only in one or two subjects. He also was very strongly in favor of vouchers before his study. The other 2-3 grades sampled showed no improvement. Other studies lean towards there being little difference between the quality of education a kid gets when using a voucher to go to a private school as opposed to a public one. Charter schools tend to show WORSE performances than public or private schools according to the studies I've seen.

Let's get one thing straight.. I don't think public schools are perfect, nor do I think I have the answers, I'm just offering it as fodder for the debate

Another thing to consider is that at best 10% of students who attend public schools could be educated in private schools due to capacity limits and enrollment requirements.

{edit addition} - Oh yeah.. and I was educated in public schools. I'd say my high school education was about as good as my university education (a top 50 university according to USN&WR) in terms of quality, with the exception of budget of course. I do not think the atmosphere was great, and it probably induced some prejudices and biases into my mind, but the education was alright.

 

[AaronP]

I went to some really good public schools. But they all had really good funding and teachers. And well certain elements that you would find in the really bad public schools throughout the country did not go to my school.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Boberfett made a very reasonable point, and all she got in return were emotional arguments.

I have seen some of the most blatant abuses. I personally taught several children who were instructed by their parents to intentionally disrupt and perform poorly so they could get their "crazy check" (as they called it). This is not a rant against the poor individuals who abused the system, but simply pointing out that it DOES get abused.

But Boberfett made a perfectly valid point - regardless of whether the system is being abused, if so many children truly do fit into this category, then it isn't such an aberration at all, and we need to rethink the way we teach children to accomodate such a huge percentage of "special needs" students.

It's not about who's heart bleeds the thickest or who doesn't care about others' misfortunes.

 

[BoberFett]

Oh, woah, hold the phone.

Thanks for the backup Rio, but I'm a guy. Thanks.

 

[CliffC]

Oh Rio it's for you, somebody calling themself Bober or someting er other.
Saying he ain't no Biaaaaatch.

 

[KingHam]

The real problem with public schools is the power that the various unions have. They are unwilling to allow change of any meaningful sort.

KingHam

 

[Neos]

Well, I had a good education in the school system here in Birmingham, AL ...yes...even in Birmingham. The problem now here, and I can testify to it with my kids ...is teachers who have tenure, can't be fired, and just do a bad job ...i.e.; not giving out homework, not being able to teach the subject properly, sometimes not even showing up for class.
Pennstate said .."Part of my point is that there's no difference between the private and public school system. Differences come from individual schools".
Well, the problem that I see is that with goverment schools you have no choice in the matter, yet you have to pay taxes to support it, wheather you use it or not.
What happened in Washington, D.C. a few years back when parents were given the chance to send their kids to a private school if they had the chance ...that tells the tale for me. They jumped on it. True, they had a bad system, I am sure.
What Washington and the education lobby wants is full federal control in this area. Then we will have a mess.
Neos (Andrew in AL)

 

[Rio Rebel]

Sorry, B....lmao

I think I saw "Fetts" and was thinking "Fettsbabe"

That makes sense, though...your points were too lucid to have been feminine.

*ducks*

 

[Sephiroth_IX]

Generally Private School's have poorer teachers, as the schools cannot afford to pay as much as a contending public school. This is the exact situation in my city, Phoenix. My little brother goes to a private school, and my father is going to take him out because of the horrible teachers.

 

[Double Trouble]

Ok, I didn't have time before, but here's some info and sources to back up my earlier post and put the smack down on this issue. First, lets go with some sources that show the relative cost and performance of public versus private schools:

Nice site that shows stats on costs and performance of public and private schools.

Peterson.com, a well known site on education, including college.

CATO Institute

GREAT article on 'values' in school and how they are taught.

Results of some research in Minnesota on public vs private schools.

Some interesting quotes:

"Minnesota's 543 private schools save taxpayers more than $500 million every year while delivering better results at a lower cost, according to a report released by several Minnesota education groups."

Wow, better results, at lower costs for taxpayers, and better education. No way we'd want anything like that, we want huge government programs damn it!

"The average tuition for all private schools, elementary and secondary, is $3,116, or less than half of the cost per pupil in the average public school,$6,857."

Hmmmm... I guess it costs more than twice as much for public versus private schools.

"Private school students scored Proficient in the 1994 NAEP reading test at 1.5 times the rate of public schools students. Roman Catholic schools, which can be used as a surrogate for non-elite private schools, produced Proficient scores at 1.4 times or more the rate of public schools. Students at all three grades who attended non-public schools (either catholic or other non-public schools) had a significantly higher average proficiency than did students attending public schools"

Hmmm, sounds pretty clear to me, students in private schools do significantly better than those in public schools when it comes to standardised testing. I would think that if we are dumping more than twice as much money into public school as we are in private schools, we should be getting some decent results... but we aren't.

"It is increasingly understood that America's education crisis is one of school structure, not of per pupil expenditures. Simply put, American schools are failing because they are organized according to a bureaucratic, monopolistic model; their organizing principle is basically the same as that of a socialist economy. For the same reason that socialist economies around the world have failed and continue to fail, America's centrally planned schools are failing. "

Amen. This pretty much says it all. It's not a matter of money (as Pennstate would have you believe), it's a matter of how the system is set up to fail. When it comes to schools, like anything else, one size does NOT fit all.

This is not an "us versus them" issue, nor is it a "democrat versus republicans" issue. It's really a matter of "how do we best educate our future" -- and a massive government public school system is NOT the answer.

Can anyone name ONE government institution that runs efficiently, quickly, and delivers service and quality equal to private sector institutions at the same price??? .... didn't think so. Why would it be any different with schools or medical healthcare or social security or anything else?? Government institutions are inherently slow, cumbersome, wasteful and we end up paying more for the services.

We are really shafting the inner city kids and the rural kids with the public school system. Why? Because they don't have the money to make a better choice. They get stuck in the crappy government schools, while the kids that are better off end up in better learning environments. School vouchers would give lower income parents options when it comes to sending their kids to better schools. Of course, that would be very anti "liberal-big-government-huge-bureaucracy" thinking, but it makes sense.

Oh, and Banshee, you driveling idiot, I'm not even going to waste my time on you, I'll stick to debate with the sane

 

[Double Trouble]

..... and of course, in my previous post, I didn't even go through all the reasons other than just 'reading, writing , arithmatic' why private schools on the whole are better. They are not forced to teach the polically correct BS many public schools are. They can allow a student to ask a question about one of the ten commandmends and not have to give out books like "Sue has two mommy's" or some other crap like that.

 

[Imported]

I currently go to a public school and I couldn't imagine myself in a private one. I went to a private school for First and Second grade, then went to public. Best move I ever made in my life.

 

[Impact55]

I currently go to a public school (it's magnet though) and have a far better education than my peers at neighboring private schools. How do I know this? I have close friends that go to private schools, and do to their small class sizes they have a harder time putting C++ classes ( none at all), AP Classes ( very few), and IB Classes ( none at all). It all depends what public school you go to down here in Oklahoma... the average joe-schmoe public high schools are horrible, however Booker T. Washington is an exception.

 

[Impact55]

<< ..... and of course, in my previous post, I didn't even go through all the reasons other than just 'reading, writing , arithmatic' why private schools on the whole are better. They are not forced to teach the polically correct BS many public schools are. They can allow a student to ask a question about one of the ten commandmends and not have to give out books like &quot;Sue has two mommy's&quot; or some other crap like that. >>


That's really stupid. First off , I know for a fact that private schools are a lot more censored since they are *GENERALLY* based on a religion which places them in strict boundaries. Seperation of church and state is a GOOD thing.

 

[Double Trouble]

Impact55: Oh ok, so that's the missing link we've been looking for. You've solved it! We can easily measure academic performance and standards just by looking at who can take C++ classes! Whoohoo.

Ok, reality check. It's very hard to judge how &quot;good&quot; your education or someone else's education is. The only objective way that we know of right now is standardised testing, which isn't a great way.....

<<I know for a fact that private schools are a lot more censored since they are *GENERALLY* based on a religion which places them in strict boundaries. Seperation of church and state is a GOOD thing. >>

You know of a fact heh? Perhaps that school you go to is not putting enough emphasis on English grammar.

I know separation of Church and State is a good thing, but I've seen it taken to extremes in many cases, on both sides. By sending their kids to the school of their choice, parents have a choice in what they want their kids to learn -- regardless of their ideology.

 

[ArMs]

Average class size at my school... There are 8 of us in my Spanish II class and there were about 30 in my AMPS class, though due to the crap nature of the class, there are now about 25 or so. So that's an average of 16.5 - 19 people per class. Though I could be off, <SarcasticSnicker>I'm in public school.</SarcasticSnicker>

 

[ArMs]

Oh yeah, in most (most I know of anyway) cases, it's not the public schools are bad, it's the teachers and students. Some teachers are just incredibly stupid. When I was in 7th grade, I got a 1010 on the SAT, I know that's not amazing for a 7th grader, but it's not bad, and it's better than some of my teacher's scores from when they took it there senior year in high school. In the students case, many of them are just @$$h0l3s (big edit) who don't dive a d@mn about their education. People think of them as the outcome of a public education. Hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they would be that way regardless of what school they went to.

 

[Mday]

i went to stuyvesant. which is a GREAT HS for smart people. meaning, no normal people should go there... you get messed up =) mentally. =)

outside of that, my JHS sucked. my elementary school sucked. you know how magnet schools are supposed to be good\special. they're not ALL good\special.

i feel that the public school system has let me down. i am smart, that is, above average. JHS and elementary school were so mlah. i could've done all that crap in a matter of weeks or even a year. that is, all those years worth within those times.

 

[CliffC]

Well tagej that all sounded good and I read as much of that first page as the background would let me but most all of that had been covered by someone already.:Q

You're telling me that the govment is schooling a 10 times as many kids as private is and it is only costing them twice as much per kid.

I'd say thats a Freakin Bargain!:Q

Ask any CEO if he'd take that deal!

And we've already determined that if you take the best of the best of the kids that can afford private school and you put them up against any given group of average kids then you prbably will find the private kids are the smarter of the two.

But man was that only 20% or so. Maybe the privates didn't have their best test either.

But I'll tell you what tagej you take any private school and pick a group of kids from any rural school and see if the privates can teach them and if they can then the privates better start building some schools because there are 10X as many pub kids as there are privs.

Oh and one more thing, you have to teach the bad with the good! No getting rid of the kid because you say he can't be taught.

I know you really believe that private is better but when you have to coordinate the education of 40,000,000-Forty Million as compared to the 4,000,000-Four Million that the privates teach its a task!

Now if you think that public education ain't worth a flip and you want to get rid of it then fine I say go right ahead!

But now your and everybody that was with yous ass is on the line because you now have 40,000,000-Forty Million kids that need to be taught!

You've created the biggest problem that education in America has ever seen.

I think it's a little more complicated than we are delving here. I don't think vouchers or complete privitization are the answers. I think how much the community plays a role in how the schools are run is the best thing that can be done. I know in my town the parents run the school system by participation!

Tagej you give plenty of good reasons to do something different but that only creates a bigger problem.

But gimme a plan I can take to the Board and I'll be right there with you!

 

[Rio Rebel]

<< That's really stupid. First off , I know for a fact that private schools are a lot more censored >>



I'd like to know how you know that for a FACT. Have you visited a statistically significant random sample, or does the term &quot;private school&quot; logically imply &quot;censorship&quot;?

Since it's a reasonable assumption that you haven't done the former, and we know that the latter isn't the case, you do not know this as a FACT.

Now, my educated and experienced opinion, based on a statistically insignificant but random sample and conversations with others in the field, is that religious schools actually practice very little censorship. The overwhelming majority of religious schools belong to faiths which are generally more open - Catholic, Episcopalian, etc. - and very few belong to the more conservative and aggressive denominations. Secondly, it could be reasonably argued that public schools actually practice more censorship from the left, by placing restrictions on what can be taught in the classes so as to remain &quot;neutral&quot;. The policy of strict seperation of church and state is, at its core, censorship. It is the forbidding of certain ideas and statements to be expressed by the teachers in order to create a religion-neutral environment. This is clearly a form of censorship...whether it is justified is another matter.

 

[vi edit]

How can you honestly think that standarized scores compared between private schools and public schools are fair?

They aren't!

In a public school, you can have three students score 90's on a test, and have a fourth spell their name out in the dots and have them only wind up with a 74 for an average. A effort put out by three students has turned into a low C because of one person. This can and does happen. All it takes four or five students in a class who could give a flying fart about school to screw up the whole class average. Does this really prove that public schools are ineffective?

No.

All it does show is that public schools have a higher amount of low scoring students. What parent would bus a &quot;D&quot; or &quot;F&quot; student off to a $2500 private school?

I doubt too many. The public schools keep the lower scoring kids, bringing down the grades of the many students that do achieve high scores.

 

[Double Trouble]

Nobody (at least that I know of) is advocating to completely do away with public schools. We need to address some serious issues with our public school system. Pennstate made the assertion that public schools (on average) are just as good as private ones.... and I say he's full of it. We could debate the underlying factors (such as socioeconomic selection, parental involvement, single parent households etc), but there is no doubt the public school system is a wasteful bureaucracy that can (and should) be made better, for all of our sakes.

 

[DesignDawg]

Tagej,



<< You know of a fact heh? Perhaps that school you go to is not putting enough emphasis on English grammar. >>


Were you implying that his saying &quot;I know for a fact&quot; was incorrect, and he should have said &quot;of&quot; in its place?

&quot;I know for a fact&quot; is a pre-fab phrase. The words go together in the same way as &quot;as a matter of fact&quot; and &quot;as far as I know&quot;.

He was entirely correct, and even if you pick it apart as though it were NOT a common, everyday phrase, it would still be correct. On the other hand &quot;I know of a fact&quot; would be meaningless and somewhat confusing for most of us, as it is NOT a phrase commonly used, and is too close to one we do use to seem like anything but a mistake on YOUR part. --Not to mention that, when paired with the word &quot;a&quot; instead of &quot;the&quot; (as you used it) it is entirely incorrect.

Ricky
DesignDawg

 

[DABANSHEE]

How many bloody times do I have tro say this Tagej

Are you bloody thick or something Tagej

Private schools are selective. Do I have to say it again? Private schools are selective. That means (except for they occasional exception) its only the kids who pass the entrance exams that get in. Plus they bribe gifted children to go to their schools, by offering scholaships. If you are wondering why certain private schools keep wining the inter-school Rugby/Swimming/Athletics competitions, its because those kids are paid to go to those schools - I went to a govt school where every kid had to do long distance running, it was a old school tradition. Consequently, every year we would win the inter-school long distance running competitions. Well anyway, every year we'd have at least 1/2 a dozen of our best long distance runners poached by offering bribes, I mean scholaships. Actually they offered more than scholaships, because if they were just covering school fees it wasnt much of a incentive as our school was free, so they would pay a good couple of thousand above the school fees. Its the same to with kids who are gifted in music too, oh &amp; also kids who did well in the 'School Certificate'****, they get bought out &amp; then do their final 2 years of schooling in a private school, where they'l sit for the 'Higher School Certificate' at the end of year 12. That way they pad out their HSC results with bought talent.

Don't tell me things are that different in the US, I've been there twice &amp; have many relatives there, including about 1/2 a dozen who are teachers in working both public &amp; private schools in the 'Bay Area'. &amp; yes the vast majority of private schools in the US are selective in some form or other &amp; a good proportion use entrance exams, which prospective pupils are expected to pass. Plus they also offer many enducements to draw the gifted/talented &amp; hardworking kids who get good marks away from their govt schools &amp; to the private schools(yes some were just average when they entered their public school but then blossemed under the direction of their dedicated teachers &amp; ended up at the top)

***here in Oz we have 2 levels of leaving certificate - at the end of year 10, when kids are about 16, all children sit for a set of exams called the 'School Certificate'. Then those kids who have no ambition to go to uni leave school &amp; do such things as aprentiseships &amp; trainee- ships, where they get paid a basic wage to work 4 days a week &amp; then go to tech the other day, which only costs $200 a year. Aprentiships cover everything from hairdressing, to butchery, to being a chef or a pastry cook, to welding, being a mechanic or auto-electrician or a refridgeration mechanic, to carpentry &amp; building, actually you can almost get aprentiships for virtually anything in Australia. Personally I think one of the stupidist thing day did to the US education system was replace the traditional aprentiship system for people leaving school at 16, with a college system where everyone is expected to stay at school till they are about 19, then fork out thousands to go to a college to become a chef or a mechanic or a hairdresser. Really it just a waste to expect people who are taking up a trade to continue at school till matriculation &amp; then go to a bloody hairdressing college or something - it just encourages people to drop out. Well anyway those kids who have no plans for going to uni'.

 

[BoberFett]

Dab

Uh, I hate to say this, but I agree with your last paragraph. It is a waste to force kids who have no ambition to sit through years of school where they do more to disrupt others than learn anything. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot would be trouble makers would find better things to to with their time if they worked in a apprenticeship or went to trade school or something. I can say with some certainty that my brother-in-law wouldn't have gotten into the mess that he did if that system was in place here.