public schools suck ass, but you learn many important lessons that you just don't get in private schools.
I'm a sophmore right now in a very good public school (as far as public schools go). The honors level courses are hard, but for the most part the teachers are good and the students learn a lot. We have a great AP program for science, history, math, and english. Like every school, there are problems like theft, drug use, etc... but that happens in private schools as well. I think I've learned a lot from public school education and I would never want to go to a private school.
Uhhh gee, lets see, the public school system is just as good as the private school system. Riiiiiiiight. And the Pope is Jewish. BS.
Let me say this up front: I truly believe public school teachers are just as good and as dedicated (if not more so, given their working conditions) as private school teachers. The problems with the public school system has nothing to do with the teachers or the students.
However, private schools consistently outscore public schools in every standardized test there is, and consistenly have a higher percentage of their students graduate from college. Not only that, but the private schools do it on a much smaller budget on a per student basis than the public schools do. Private schools also provide a much safer environment for the students to be able to learn, since they can kick bad apples out a lot easier without having to deal with idiot lawyers from the ACLU. When was the last time you saw metal detectors and police officers roaming the halls of a private school?
Pennstate says the public schools need more money. BS. Throwing more money at the system does nothing. I don't have the time to dig up the links now (I'll post some later), but the last time I checked the public school system spent twice as much for each student as the private schools. Why? Because they have to spend a ton of money on a huge bureacracy, instead of spending it on the students. They have to spend it on fighting lawsuits on prayer at football games and other such crap. They have to spend it on cops to patrol the hallways, and metal detectors at the doors.
Public schools work on a 'one size fits all' approach. Each school has to follow rules that are created for the entire school system rather than rules made to meet the needs of that particular school.
Parents that send their kids to a private school don't necesarrily 'care' more about their kids, but they have the resources and the desire to send their kids to better schools. Yes, BETTER schools, where kids are actually tought right and wrong and to think for themselves, not just about what's politically correct and politically incorrect.
There are great public schools just like there are great private schools. There are also very bad public schools, and on average private schools offer a better education for your kids. The fact that a lot of public schools are quality schools is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the teachers and the students to overcome the crappy system.
Let me say this up front: I truly believe public school teachers are just as good and as dedicated (if not more so, given their working conditions) as private school teachers. The problems with the public school system has nothing to do with the teachers or the students.
However, private schools consistently outscore public schools in every standardized test there is, and consistenly have a higher percentage of their students graduate from college. Not only that, but the private schools do it on a much smaller budget on a per student basis than the public schools do. Private schools also provide a much safer environment for the students to be able to learn, since they can kick bad apples out a lot easier without having to deal with idiot lawyers from the ACLU. When was the last time you saw metal detectors and police officers roaming the halls of a private school?
Pennstate says the public schools need more money. BS. Throwing more money at the system does nothing. I don't have the time to dig up the links now (I'll post some later), but the last time I checked the public school system spent twice as much for each student as the private schools. Why? Because they have to spend a ton of money on a huge bureacracy, instead of spending it on the students. They have to spend it on fighting lawsuits on prayer at football games and other such crap. They have to spend it on cops to patrol the hallways, and metal detectors at the doors.
Public schools work on a 'one size fits all' approach. Each school has to follow rules that are created for the entire school system rather than rules made to meet the needs of that particular school.
Parents that send their kids to a private school don't necesarrily 'care' more about their kids, but they have the resources and the desire to send their kids to better schools. Yes, BETTER schools, where kids are actually tought right and wrong and to think for themselves, not just about what's politically correct and politically incorrect.
There are great public schools just like there are great private schools. There are also very bad public schools, and on average private schools offer a better education for your kids. The fact that a lot of public schools are quality schools is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the teachers and the students to overcome the crappy system.
Public School = Bureaucracy Run Wild
More cash is the typical, incorrect answer. Until the system is reformed, additional spending is a waste of tax dollars.
Now, I am sure I will be accused of just regurgitating the Republican line.
More cash is the typical, incorrect answer. Until the system is reformed, additional spending is a waste of tax dollars.
Now, I am sure I will be accused of just regurgitating the Republican line.
Public schools are great! The UC system in California is consistently ranked among the top colleges.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
I've been doing some research and thinking about school reform. When I'm done writing my short paper on it, I'm going to find out how to pitch the idea to a test school in my area. I'll post the paper here before hand so you can tell me whether it's a valid idea or just another one of my hair-brained schemes. 
There are some good public schools. Mine wasn't. It was a joke. When I got to college all these people had already had programming classes and stuff. (Some of them might have been from public schools but it's a very expensive school and I I'm pretty sure the majority were from private) I on the other hand had one computer class and that taught stuff like word and excel and that's it. I was supposed to jump right in and program in C++ and I didn't even know what computer languages were. But that's just my experience from good ole Mt. Juliet, TN.
tagej
CAn you show me some test score data? ALso, I am saying inner city and rural schools need more money. If you look at the per-student spending of inner city and rural schools, the amount is very low. SOme of the data are cited in Jonathan Kozol's books.
CAn you show me some test score data? ALso, I am saying inner city and rural schools need more money. If you look at the per-student spending of inner city and rural schools, the amount is very low. SOme of the data are cited in Jonathan Kozol's books.
Boberfett you make it out like anyone that critiques tagejs post is spoutuing rhetoric. Whats up with that?:frown:
Tagej I think your looking at it the wrong way. You say
the public school system
I don't think the question had to do with if I thought I got a good education from the public school system but if I thought I got a good education fron the public school that I went to.
You then commence spitting out stuff that you don't have proof of! I'm not saying you don't have the proof I'm saying your not letting anyone here see it.
Now I don't know where you got this knowledge but I think you took it out of context or didn't understand it
but the private schools do it on a much smaller budget on a per student basis than the public schools do
Let me see if I get this right...Private school enrollment 200 students X $5000 = $100,000 school budget. Now this for this year and the next and the next because the enrollment stays the same because thats the best for the teaching of the kids at that private school.
Now you take a public school that has grown by 150 students and they need a new school to handle all of the kids so they build one, and then you add the cost of that school to the budget and you find that it cost X amount of dollars more to fund public instead of private schools. It's simple math if you think about it. If public schools could hold their enrollment to no more than what they wanted to teach then they too could limit their budget to rival any private school!
Now I think if you look at this statement
the desire to send their kids to better schools. Yes, BETTER schools
I think you'll find that this statement has more to do with it than the school
since they can kick bad apples out a lot easier.
But in the end I think these two statements say it all
There are great public schools just like there are great private schools
and
The fact that a lot of public schools are quality schools is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the teachers and the students to overcome the crappy system.
Theres really NO way to prove that either is better than the other until they both go by the same rules. Either private schools are gonna have to take every student that can afford the tuition and put up with them no matter what or public schools are gonna have to be able to only take as many as they want and be able to get rid of the ones they don't at their discretion.
Sorry for no emoticons but my thoughts were the most important part of the post.
Tagej I think your looking at it the wrong way. You say
the public school system
I don't think the question had to do with if I thought I got a good education from the public school system but if I thought I got a good education fron the public school that I went to.
You then commence spitting out stuff that you don't have proof of! I'm not saying you don't have the proof I'm saying your not letting anyone here see it.
Now I don't know where you got this knowledge but I think you took it out of context or didn't understand it
but the private schools do it on a much smaller budget on a per student basis than the public schools do
Let me see if I get this right...Private school enrollment 200 students X $5000 = $100,000 school budget. Now this for this year and the next and the next because the enrollment stays the same because thats the best for the teaching of the kids at that private school.
Now you take a public school that has grown by 150 students and they need a new school to handle all of the kids so they build one, and then you add the cost of that school to the budget and you find that it cost X amount of dollars more to fund public instead of private schools. It's simple math if you think about it. If public schools could hold their enrollment to no more than what they wanted to teach then they too could limit their budget to rival any private school!
Now I think if you look at this statement
the desire to send their kids to better schools. Yes, BETTER schools
I think you'll find that this statement has more to do with it than the school
since they can kick bad apples out a lot easier.
But in the end I think these two statements say it all
There are great public schools just like there are great private schools
and
The fact that a lot of public schools are quality schools is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the teachers and the students to overcome the crappy system.
Theres really NO way to prove that either is better than the other until they both go by the same rules. Either private schools are gonna have to take every student that can afford the tuition and put up with them no matter what or public schools are gonna have to be able to only take as many as they want and be able to get rid of the ones they don't at their discretion.
Sorry for no emoticons but my thoughts were the most important part of the post.
- Oct 28, 1999
- 62,484
- 8,345
- 126
1) Public Schools are outscored by Private
My reply - You are only as strong as your weakest link. Inner City schools are a major problem. Good teachers don't want to teach there, they don't get a lot of money, and the "good" students are often scared to achieve, or even go to school.
This is a serious issue that needs to be resolved. Simply giving them more money is not an option because the school district that pays the bills for it doesn't have the money to give in the first place. They need to be reformed, and fast.
I will go with you guys on that one. Inner city schools are bad. But, the parents of children in these schools usually don't have the money to bus them to a $2,500 a year school anyway. Catch 22.
2) Public Schools spend too much money
My reply - How many private schools offer special education to ANY child without any additional costs to the parents? I can't say for certain, but I would venture to guess that not too many do. Public Schools have to pay a premium for teachers who have special education experience. These teachers aren't cheap to employ, and their students aren't cheap to care for.
Also, how many private schools offer very generous lunch discounts to the children of needy families?
Not too many.
Schools aren't just a place to get an education. Schools are where children are raised 3/4 of their waking life from the ages of 5-18. Public schools have a little more things to take care of than private schools. Some schools are run well, others are not. In general though, I'd say that many of them do a good job, it's just up to the student to make something of it.
Simply saying that "public schools suck!" because you never tried in school is a blatently naive proclamation.
My reply - You are only as strong as your weakest link. Inner City schools are a major problem. Good teachers don't want to teach there, they don't get a lot of money, and the "good" students are often scared to achieve, or even go to school.
This is a serious issue that needs to be resolved. Simply giving them more money is not an option because the school district that pays the bills for it doesn't have the money to give in the first place. They need to be reformed, and fast.
I will go with you guys on that one. Inner city schools are bad. But, the parents of children in these schools usually don't have the money to bus them to a $2,500 a year school anyway. Catch 22.
2) Public Schools spend too much money
My reply - How many private schools offer special education to ANY child without any additional costs to the parents? I can't say for certain, but I would venture to guess that not too many do. Public Schools have to pay a premium for teachers who have special education experience. These teachers aren't cheap to employ, and their students aren't cheap to care for.
Also, how many private schools offer very generous lunch discounts to the children of needy families?
Not too many.
Schools aren't just a place to get an education. Schools are where children are raised 3/4 of their waking life from the ages of 5-18. Public schools have a little more things to take care of than private schools. Some schools are run well, others are not. In general though, I'd say that many of them do a good job, it's just up to the student to make something of it.
Simply saying that "public schools suck!" because you never tried in school is a blatently naive proclamation.
please forgive me, but i never figure if UCLA is a public school? or partially? since there are cal state here as well...
anyway, UCLA ugrad and grad.
anyway, UCLA ugrad and grad.
Your a bloody idiot Tagej, the fact is private schools are selective (most people have to pass an entrance esam to get into private schools). The simple fact is that once selectivity & socio-economic status is taken into account, private schools actually perform worse than public schools
This has been proven already in Australia, where the goverment decided to make some public schools selective (using similar entrance exams as the privates schools). I tell you what then happened.
First a bit of background info. Everyone in Australia sits for the 'School Certificate' at the end of year 10 (when most people are about 16). Then people who are going on to do a trade aprentship leave school & find a aprentiship, where they work 4 days a week & go to tech 1 day a week. Most other kids stay on at school for another 2 years then sit for an exam at the end of year 12 called the 'Higher School Certificate'.
Well anyway, since there have been selective public schools in Australia they have actually been performing better than the selective private schools as far as state wide 'School Certificate' & 'Higher School Certificate' scores are concerned. Here in New South Wales, the top 5 schools in HSC rankings every year are 'James Ruse Agricultural High', 'Sydney Boys High', 'Sydney Girls High', 'North Sydney Boys High' & 'North Sydney Girls High' & they are all govt schools. Actually its rare for the private schools to get a mention in the top 8. Also unlike the US, private Schools are quite common here, we have many that run on the English model & the Catholics run a whole school system very similar to the ordinary State Schools. BTW I'd say at least 70% of schools are segragated (including states schools). Also just about all schools have uniforms. Even though us Aussies don't take them seriously, consequently all the kids walk arround with there tires loose & their top button undone & their shirtsleeves roled up, & instead of wearing grey trousers everyone wears grey cotton drill shorts (like what labourers wear) & everyone wears old sneakers instead of school shoes. It really is 'the look'. Basically the only difference is the private school kids wear their uniforms like the're s'pose to be worn. Actually its quite good having a uniform as you don't have to worry about what to wear all the time.
This has been proven already in Australia, where the goverment decided to make some public schools selective (using similar entrance exams as the privates schools). I tell you what then happened.
First a bit of background info. Everyone in Australia sits for the 'School Certificate' at the end of year 10 (when most people are about 16). Then people who are going on to do a trade aprentship leave school & find a aprentiship, where they work 4 days a week & go to tech 1 day a week. Most other kids stay on at school for another 2 years then sit for an exam at the end of year 12 called the 'Higher School Certificate'.
Well anyway, since there have been selective public schools in Australia they have actually been performing better than the selective private schools as far as state wide 'School Certificate' & 'Higher School Certificate' scores are concerned. Here in New South Wales, the top 5 schools in HSC rankings every year are 'James Ruse Agricultural High', 'Sydney Boys High', 'Sydney Girls High', 'North Sydney Boys High' & 'North Sydney Girls High' & they are all govt schools. Actually its rare for the private schools to get a mention in the top 8. Also unlike the US, private Schools are quite common here, we have many that run on the English model & the Catholics run a whole school system very similar to the ordinary State Schools. BTW I'd say at least 70% of schools are segragated (including states schools). Also just about all schools have uniforms. Even though us Aussies don't take them seriously, consequently all the kids walk arround with there tires loose & their top button undone & their shirtsleeves roled up, & instead of wearing grey trousers everyone wears grey cotton drill shorts (like what labourers wear) & everyone wears old sneakers instead of school shoes. It really is 'the look'. Basically the only difference is the private school kids wear their uniforms like the're s'pose to be worn. Actually its quite good having a uniform as you don't have to worry about what to wear all the time.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
<< Public Schools have to pay a premium for teachers who have special education experience. >>
I have a problem with this concept. The idea of special education is being abused where I'm from. Last count was that 1 out of 10 children in my area is considered to be a student with "special needs." There's only two answers for this. Either there really are that many special kids, and schools need to change the entire way they teach, to be more accomodating. That or they're scamming the system, calling a child special needs so that they collect more money. Either way it stinks in it's current form.
<< Schools are where children are raised 3/4 of their waking life from the ages of 5-18. >>
Also what I consider to be part of the problem. Many parents shirk their responsibilities on to the schools. Schools aren't meant to be babysitting factories, but institutions of education.
I dont really think parental involvement has alot to do with it. I could care less if my parents knew what I was doing, but Id still do good because of the one thing that motivates me: Greed. It may not sound nice, but it's the truth.
Pennstate, I agree with you...I went to a small public school just outside Grand Rapids, MI, and I feel I received a very good education. Following that, I attended the Univ Of Michigan...I did well for a while and I felt prepared to take most of the classes, but some of the engineering classes blew me away...(shoulda taken calc my last year of high school!) I left U-M over a year ago with about a B avg., only because I got sick of it...but that's another story.
Anyway, the only thing that angers me is the policy many public schools in middle class towns have on poor conduct/troubled kids....AWFUL! My sister teaches at a school that will not let her expel students b/c the school gets money from the state at rate of $$$/student. There's 2-3 kids in her 5 classes that have NO reason to be in high school whatsoever...but the superintendant won't let her lay down the law. This is a little OT, but I see your point...it's sad to see these priveleged schools get all sorts of fancy sh!t and see inner-city ones get little or nothing.
Just my opinion though, guess I'm just getting old!
Anyway, the only thing that angers me is the policy many public schools in middle class towns have on poor conduct/troubled kids....AWFUL! My sister teaches at a school that will not let her expel students b/c the school gets money from the state at rate of $$$/student. There's 2-3 kids in her 5 classes that have NO reason to be in high school whatsoever...but the superintendant won't let her lay down the law. This is a little OT, but I see your point...it's sad to see these priveleged schools get all sorts of fancy sh!t and see inner-city ones get little or nothing.
Just my opinion though, guess I'm just getting old!
Boberfett: 10%? What, was your town built above a radioactive landfill covering ancient Indian burial grounds?
But seriously, that sounds very high. I would be willing to bet that the figure is either overblown (by someone feeding you the numbers, I know you would not deliberately lie like that), or the definition of special needs includes kids with discipline problems...which I am sure would be nearly right.
I for one think that the public school education is only as good as the parental involvement with the kids. If you make sure that the kids understand their school work and their home work, and if you make sure that the teachers KNOW you expect them to teach your kids, then kids actually learn.
My father told me that the only thing middle and high school is good for is laying a foundation for you to "learn how to learn." I don't totally agree, but I do think that the kid's education only starts at school...it continues after they come home and have finished their "homework." Our kids have minds like sponges...give them things to learn, and time to play, and they will grow up without ignorance.
But seriously, that sounds very high. I would be willing to bet that the figure is either overblown (by someone feeding you the numbers, I know you would not deliberately lie like that), or the definition of special needs includes kids with discipline problems...which I am sure would be nearly right.
I for one think that the public school education is only as good as the parental involvement with the kids. If you make sure that the kids understand their school work and their home work, and if you make sure that the teachers KNOW you expect them to teach your kids, then kids actually learn.
My father told me that the only thing middle and high school is good for is laying a foundation for you to "learn how to learn." I don't totally agree, but I do think that the kid's education only starts at school...it continues after they come home and have finished their "homework." Our kids have minds like sponges...give them things to learn, and time to play, and they will grow up without ignorance.
- Oct 28, 1999
- 62,484
- 8,345
- 126
<< Public Schools have to pay a premium for teachers who have special education experience. >>
I have a problem with this concept. The idea of special education is being abused where I'm from. Last count was that 1 out of 10 children in my area is considered to be a student with "special needs." There's only two answers for this. Either there really are that many special kids, and schools need to change the entire way they teach, to be more accomodating. That or they're scamming the system, calling a child special needs so that they collect more money. Either way it stinks in it's current form.
Boberfett - if you had an autistic child, and couldn't afford/find a suitable private education institution, wouldn't you want a teacher who know's what THE FSCK they are doing teaching/caring for that child???
Special Education teaching is the most difficult education path that a teacher can pursue...both academically and emotionaly. If you think the little brat in the back of the class making fart noises in his armpit is bad, just wait till an autistic child starts slamming his head against the wall because they are nervous.
Many people look upon the faults - few look upon the successes.
Those who have - forget those who don't.
I have a problem with this concept. The idea of special education is being abused where I'm from. Last count was that 1 out of 10 children in my area is considered to be a student with "special needs." There's only two answers for this. Either there really are that many special kids, and schools need to change the entire way they teach, to be more accomodating. That or they're scamming the system, calling a child special needs so that they collect more money. Either way it stinks in it's current form.
Boberfett - if you had an autistic child, and couldn't afford/find a suitable private education institution, wouldn't you want a teacher who know's what THE FSCK they are doing teaching/caring for that child???
Special Education teaching is the most difficult education path that a teacher can pursue...both academically and emotionaly. If you think the little brat in the back of the class making fart noises in his armpit is bad, just wait till an autistic child starts slamming his head against the wall because they are nervous.
Many people look upon the faults - few look upon the successes.
Those who have - forget those who don't.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter