Poll: Thinking about buying a P4? Better read this!
- Thread starter TimeLord
- Start date
Any self-respecting computer enthusiast builds their own system and runs software tweaked for it...
just let people buy what they want
stop worrying about it
can everyone stop dissing each other's CPUs?
amd is a very good CPU
INTEL is very good too
okay?
stop worrying about it
can everyone stop dissing each other's CPUs?
amd is a very good CPU
INTEL is very good too
okay?
From Tom:
<< So what's the bottom line? Well, firstly I have to repeat myself for the 10,000th time, reminding you that systems with AMD's Athlon or Duron processors are the best you can get for your money right now. I also don't want to fail to mention that you can of course configure a Pentium 4 box that beats Micron's Millennia MAX XP in a few benchmarks, but for what price? I leave it up to you to decide what you want to think about Dell, the only large OEM that still doesn't offer systems with AMD processors. Are they really caring about their customers? I honestly wonder ... >>
<< So what's the bottom line? Well, firstly I have to repeat myself for the 10,000th time, reminding you that systems with AMD's Athlon or Duron processors are the best you can get for your money right now. I also don't want to fail to mention that you can of course configure a Pentium 4 box that beats Micron's Millennia MAX XP in a few benchmarks, but for what price? I leave it up to you to decide what you want to think about Dell, the only large OEM that still doesn't offer systems with AMD processors. Are they really caring about their customers? I honestly wonder ... >>
Having read Mr Tom's rant I'll admit that parts were amusing. Amazing how he was able to guise a very biased comparison as a reasonable test.
I'm not saying that the P4 is the best thing to come around or that it is even a good product. (It ain't bad though)
What I can say is that Tomhardware has once again compared apples and oranges.
A fair test of the product would be done using the same peripherals for each, and if the Athlon was in its highest performance configuration, then the same should have been provided for the P4. Using price as the basis for configuration puts the P4 at a serious disadvantage at the start simply due to the fact that a Newly released Product tends to be more expensive than an older technology product.
I won't disagree that a P4 running 32bit software will not be appreciably faster than an equally configured 32 bit machine - and most benchmarks support exactly that.
However, when applications appear that are tailored for the P4 and other soon to be released products from the silicon manufacturers I expect to see that the P4 and similar devices will make the Athlons and PIII's of today look incredibly slow.
The only thing that the "Tomshardware" rant proved to me is that a manufacturer can and will make some compromises in configuration to release a product that contains new technology at a marketable price. The configurations offered seemed like reasonable general purpose mid range and mid-to-high range priced systems that can reasonably handle most if not all of the current range of applications of a typical home user (yes, I said typical - not frame-rate crazed gamer). Systems which will also be able to take advantage of future releases of Operating Systems and Applications which WILL take advantage of the enhancements offered by the P4 AND whatever AMD, VIA, etc produce to compete for our dollars.
The comparison was bogus.
As for the Tomshardware article - TWO THUMBS DOWN
I'm not saying that the P4 is the best thing to come around or that it is even a good product. (It ain't bad though)
What I can say is that Tomhardware has once again compared apples and oranges.
A fair test of the product would be done using the same peripherals for each, and if the Athlon was in its highest performance configuration, then the same should have been provided for the P4. Using price as the basis for configuration puts the P4 at a serious disadvantage at the start simply due to the fact that a Newly released Product tends to be more expensive than an older technology product.
I won't disagree that a P4 running 32bit software will not be appreciably faster than an equally configured 32 bit machine - and most benchmarks support exactly that.
However, when applications appear that are tailored for the P4 and other soon to be released products from the silicon manufacturers I expect to see that the P4 and similar devices will make the Athlons and PIII's of today look incredibly slow.
The only thing that the "Tomshardware" rant proved to me is that a manufacturer can and will make some compromises in configuration to release a product that contains new technology at a marketable price. The configurations offered seemed like reasonable general purpose mid range and mid-to-high range priced systems that can reasonably handle most if not all of the current range of applications of a typical home user (yes, I said typical - not frame-rate crazed gamer). Systems which will also be able to take advantage of future releases of Operating Systems and Applications which WILL take advantage of the enhancements offered by the P4 AND whatever AMD, VIA, etc produce to compete for our dollars.
The comparison was bogus.
As for the Tomshardware article - TWO THUMBS DOWN
Ummm.. the P4 is a 32 bit processor, just like the P3 and Athlon. You are thinking of the 64bit Itanium(which actually performs around the level of a 486 on 32bit apps).
The only thing the P4 has in the way of "software enhancements" that could help it get a big boost are SSE2 optimizations.
Of course, its main advantage is its ability to ramp up to really high clock speeds compared to the Athlon. Although with Intel's greedy nature and tendancy to try to slow the progression of processors, it will not ramp up high enough in the near future to come close to the Athlon on unoptimized apps. It has its strong points on apps that are optimized for it, but they are looking to be few and far between.
They could easily "crush" the Athlon by releasing a 1.9-2Ghz chip in the next few months, but they won't, so the Athlon will continue to be the speed king in 98% of all applications while the P4 sells on marketing hype alone. Consumer stupidity has brought the advancement of the CPU industry to a crawl in the last 8 months.
The only thing the P4 has in the way of "software enhancements" that could help it get a big boost are SSE2 optimizations.
Of course, its main advantage is its ability to ramp up to really high clock speeds compared to the Athlon. Although with Intel's greedy nature and tendancy to try to slow the progression of processors, it will not ramp up high enough in the near future to come close to the Athlon on unoptimized apps. It has its strong points on apps that are optimized for it, but they are looking to be few and far between.
They could easily "crush" the Athlon by releasing a 1.9-2Ghz chip in the next few months, but they won't, so the Athlon will continue to be the speed king in 98% of all applications while the P4 sells on marketing hype alone. Consumer stupidity has brought the advancement of the CPU industry to a crawl in the last 8 months.
MadRat
Lifer
- Oct 14, 1999
- 11,971
- 291
- 126
The P4 is probably great for Quake!!! and generic office applications, but thats not the only application I use. Its slower than dogsnot in Total Annihilation (circa-1997) or European Air War (measely 256-color 3D w/o-SSE game), unable to match a Duron at half its speed in either game! (Its funny watching a person complain about their new $3000 toy. Ooops.) Perhaps the P4-revision2 will be worth a try. 
SSE2 games will absolutely fly on the P4!!!!!!!
....... alas we've got to wait two years or so for them.....
that's the major buying point for me... when I start using SSE2 apps I'm gonna get an SSE2 capable proc, hopefully AMD will be there with SSE2 by that time.
-shadow
....... alas we've got to wait two years or so for them.....
that's the major buying point for me... when I start using SSE2 apps I'm gonna get an SSE2 capable proc, hopefully AMD will be there with SSE2 by that time.
-shadow
I think some people missed the point of Tom's article. He was comparing similarly priced systems, not similarly equipped systems. His point was that P4 systems can be cheap, but they won't be worth the money because they will perform like crap in comparison to other similarly priced systems. It was targeted at people who see low prices for Pentium 4 systems but don't look at the rest of the specs, not people like us.
Why does everyone think Tom is so biased? I think that his conclusions are usually very well thought out. He never said, "This system sucks because it has a P4." He may have said something to the effect of, "This system performs like crap and has a P4" or "this system is a good performer and has a P4 but costs way too much", but that isn't being biased, that is making an analysis that has good logical reasoning using comparisons with other available goods at the same price. Just because someone says something derogatory against something doesn't mean they are biased.
That, and I would be really annoyed if he said, "Well, the Pentium 4 might cost a lot more and be a lot slower than stuff a lot cheaper but it will probably still run what you want just fine, so buy what looks shiny and is within arms reach!" Then I would never respect him as a reviewer.
If you don't mind I will not talk anymore about this. I'm done now.
Why does everyone think Tom is so biased? I think that his conclusions are usually very well thought out. He never said, "This system sucks because it has a P4." He may have said something to the effect of, "This system performs like crap and has a P4" or "this system is a good performer and has a P4 but costs way too much", but that isn't being biased, that is making an analysis that has good logical reasoning using comparisons with other available goods at the same price. Just because someone says something derogatory against something doesn't mean they are biased.
That, and I would be really annoyed if he said, "Well, the Pentium 4 might cost a lot more and be a lot slower than stuff a lot cheaper but it will probably still run what you want just fine, so buy what looks shiny and is within arms reach!" Then I would never respect him as a reviewer.
If you don't mind I will not talk anymore about this. I'm done now.
Def -
Thanks for the correction on my reference to 32 bit machines. The P4 is indeed a 32 bit machine. I should have, as you correctly pointed out, kept to the topic of optimized applications that are able to utilize the enhanced instructions.
The P4, PIII, Athlon, Duron and even the trusty Celeron are all excellent devices with characteristics that better suit one over the other for one application or another. I'm enjoying being able to have access to the amount of technology that was unheard of only a few years ago.
Also, before passing judgement on any new device it might be a good idea to see what it's real capabilities are after there has been an opportunity for the applications to evolve to use some of the new features.
To compare a "peaked and tweaked" Athlon system against a cost-reduced offering is not a reasonable comparison. If the Athlon was provided nearly every enhancement for its technology level, the same should have been provided to the system being compared.
And yes, at current pricing you do get more performance per dollar with an Athlon (Tbird) system. As the speeds increase with the P4, memory speed increases and yes, the P4 price will erode over time.. will that statement still be true? Time will tell.
Thanks for the correction on my reference to 32 bit machines. The P4 is indeed a 32 bit machine. I should have, as you correctly pointed out, kept to the topic of optimized applications that are able to utilize the enhanced instructions.
The P4, PIII, Athlon, Duron and even the trusty Celeron are all excellent devices with characteristics that better suit one over the other for one application or another. I'm enjoying being able to have access to the amount of technology that was unheard of only a few years ago.
Also, before passing judgement on any new device it might be a good idea to see what it's real capabilities are after there has been an opportunity for the applications to evolve to use some of the new features.
To compare a "peaked and tweaked" Athlon system against a cost-reduced offering is not a reasonable comparison. If the Athlon was provided nearly every enhancement for its technology level, the same should have been provided to the system being compared.
And yes, at current pricing you do get more performance per dollar with an Athlon (Tbird) system. As the speeds increase with the P4, memory speed increases and yes, the P4 price will erode over time.. will that statement still be true? Time will tell.
As he said
BEST FOR YOUR MONEY!
Not, it is better and more powerful in total.
blinded by the dollar.
*pity*
BEST FOR YOUR MONEY!
Not, it is better and more powerful in total.
blinded by the dollar.
*pity*
KR,
Isn't the way Tom tested the way people buy machines? Most people start with a budget, and try to get the best system out of the limited budget. Going with P4 blows a big hole in this budget, and you have to get crap for the rest of the system. P4 begins to be competitive only when you get to the "money is no object" category, and even in this category, it is barely competitive with Athlon system that is half the price.
Actually, I wish more reviewers reviewed systems with cost in mind.
Isn't the way Tom tested the way people buy machines? Most people start with a budget, and try to get the best system out of the limited budget. Going with P4 blows a big hole in this budget, and you have to get crap for the rest of the system. P4 begins to be competitive only when you get to the "money is no object" category, and even in this category, it is barely competitive with Athlon system that is half the price.
Actually, I wish more reviewers reviewed systems with cost in mind.
<< SSE2 games will absolutely fly on the P4!!!!!!!
....... alas we've got to wait two years or so for them.....
that's the major buying point for me... when I start using SSE2 apps I'm gonna get an SSE2 capable proc, hopefully AMD will be there with SSE2 by that time. >>
In a few years, when the games are all fully SSE2-optimized, AMD will offer full SSE2 support as well (by the end of this year, in fact).
....... alas we've got to wait two years or so for them.....
that's the major buying point for me... when I start using SSE2 apps I'm gonna get an SSE2 capable proc, hopefully AMD will be there with SSE2 by that time. >>
In a few years, when the games are all fully SSE2-optimized, AMD will offer full SSE2 support as well (by the end of this year, in fact).
Nice review by Tom, I think he just wanted to show that you can't get good OEM pre-built machine featuring P4 for $1500. Hell, in my country I can get P4/1.3Ghz, 2x128Mb PC-800 RIMM's and Intel P4's mobo as cheap as for 1800$.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,679
- 6,251
- 126
Will SSE2 games "fly"? I dunno. That's what was thought when 3dnow and SSE were introduced. So far, nothing but Quake2 with 3dnow has been very impressive. Time certainly will tell, but buying a P4 now believing that it will be worth it later could up being a terrible mistake.
It is best to wait for the proof and don't get fooled by the promise.
It is best to wait for the proof and don't get fooled by the promise.
I think the points Tom was trying to make are these.
At this time the P4 is not a cost effective solution.
People buying retail P4s based on Intels marketing hype are getting ripped off. slow video cards, PC600 memory.
Ripped off by the fact that if they were informed buyers they could buy a faster and cheaper AMD system.
By next fall the P4 may be a contender, but I will resist buying anything that gives Rambus royalties as long as I can.
At this time the P4 is not a cost effective solution.
People buying retail P4s based on Intels marketing hype are getting ripped off. slow video cards, PC600 memory.
Ripped off by the fact that if they were informed buyers they could buy a faster and cheaper AMD system.
By next fall the P4 may be a contender, but I will resist buying anything that gives Rambus royalties as long as I can.
It has already been said, but i also hink Toms review made good sense. He analyzed what will you get when spenging a certain amount on money on either a Dell P4 system or an Athlon system of some other brand. It was a good fair comparison IMO
I was surprised by how vehement Tom got. I've never seen such a nasty tone in his reviews before. I'm not saying he's wrong though.
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