Poll: Some Germans see good in Nazi rule

[techs]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...vUjHeOEG0NAGjDz0pbbBAF

Poll: Some Germans see good in Nazi rule

A quarter of Germans believe there were some positive aspects to Nazi rule, according to a poll published Wednesday ? a finding that comes after a popular talk show host was fired for praising Nazi Germany's attitude toward motherhood.

Pollsters for the Forsa agency, commissioned by the weekly magazine Stern, asked whether National Socialism also had some "good sides (such as) the construction of the highway system, the elimination of unemployment, the low criminality rate (and) the encouragement of the family."

Forsa said 25 percent responded "yes" ? but 70 percent said "no."

Stern commissioned the survey, conducted Oct. 11-12, after Germany's NDR public broadcaster last month fired talk show host Eva Herman over comments she made about the Third Reich.

News reports quoted Herman as saying there was "much that was very bad ? for example, Adolf Hitler," but there were good things under the Nazis, "for example, the high regard for the mother."

Herman, 48, who has written books urging a return to more traditional gender roles, has stood by her comments.

"What I wanted to express was that values which also existed before the Third Reich, such as family, children and motherhood, which were supported in the Third Reich, were subsequently done away with by the 68ers," she later said, referring to 1960s-era leftists.

Praising the 1933-45 Nazi dictatorship is taboo in Germany. The Nazis were responsible for the murder of some 6 million Jews and for starting World War II ? a conflict in which at least 60 million people died, including more than 7 million Germans.

The poll, which had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points, showed that people 60 or older had the highest regard for aspects of the era, with 37 percent answering "yes."

Those who grew up directly after the war, now aged 45 to 59, were the least enthusiastic about the Nazi era, with only 15 percent responding "yes."




Construction of the highway system?
To move tanks and troops more efficiently. Check.


the elimination of unemployment?
Put many Germans to work building tanks and planes to enslave world. Didn't count unemployed Jews and leftists. Since the would be dead soon. Check


the low criminality rate
Give criminals brown shirts and put them above the law. Check


the encouragement of the family
More babies equals more soldiers. Check.

Just proves those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
Good thing the have the anti-holocaust denial laws in Germany. Seems the Germans are a little too nostalgic for the good of days of Blitzkrieg.

 

[Mxylplyx]

I think it's stupid to say that nothing positive came from the Nazi rule. That is a loaded question with only one right answer. Any objective person would have to admit their were positive aspects at certain points of time, though those were obviously completely undone by the negative aspects. That doesnt equate to a moral endorsement.

 

[ProfJohn]

Have you never heard the statement ?Mussolini made the trains run on time??

In essence some times good things come from bad things.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

the encouragement of the family
More babies equals more soldiers. Check.

Now that is preposterous BS. It's the lack of a true family unit that eats away at our society on a daily basis. Maybe the motives weren't pure, but the message isn't wrong just because of who said it. That's like endorsing murder because Dave tells us it's bad.

 

[Craig234]

This is a manufactured story (mainly by the surveyors, not techs) - to force the idea of Germans liking nazis overall, a survey about a very different question is hyped up misleadingly. It's pretty disgusting to use the Nazi issue for cheap sensationalism this way IMO.

"Did you know Hitler had a soft sport for animals?" Headlie, Germans praise Hitler!

What's next - asking if any of the 6 million Jews (or gays or Gypsies or communists) were probably guilty of murder and subject to execution? Headline, 'Some Jews 'deserved' to be killed by Nazis!'

Yeesh.

We need to learn the real lessons of the Nazis, still largely unlearned IMO, such as the dangers of too close relations between the state and corporations, not this sort of stuff.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I think it's stupid to say that nothing positive came from the Nazi rule. That is a loaded question with only one right answer. Any objective person would have to admit their were positive aspects at certain points of time, though those were obviously completely undone by the negative aspects. That doesnt equate to a moral endorsement.

Hitler was almost universally praised by the leaders of other countries for these same reasons. Germany after WWI was on its knees and the period leading to WWII was indeed a period of incredible economic expansion and infrastructure building.

Winston Churchill:

I have always said that if Great Britain were defeated in war I hoped we should find a Hitler to lead us back to our rightful position among the nations. I am sorry, however, that he has not been mellowed by the great success that has attended him. The whole world would rejoice to see the Hitler of peace and tolerance, and nothing would adorn his name in world history so much as acts of magnanimity and of mercy and of pity to the forlorn and friendless, to the weak and poor. ... Let this great man search his own heart and conscience before he accuses anyone of being a warmonger.

and

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations.


What has this to do with the monstrosities Nazism did? Nothing. I really don't see what asking specific questions about insignificant things like the highway system or the sense of the family could relate to the idea people have of Nazism as a whole.

They should ask "was the railway and highway system expansion under Nazi rule worth the price?" and then yes, we might have something to talk about if these percentages were confirmed.

Besides, how many Germans still alive today can remember Germany before WWII and the impact Hitler had on the country's infrastructure and transportation system?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
I think it's stupid to say that nothing positive came from the Nazi rule. That is a loaded question with only one right answer. Any objective person would have to admit their were positive aspects at certain points of time, though those were obviously completely undone by the negative aspects. That doesnt equate to a moral endorsement.

Hitler was almost universally praised by the leaders of other countries for these same reasons. Germany after WWI was on its knees and the period leading to WWII was indeed a period of incredible economic expansion and infrastructure building.

Winston Churchill:

I have always said that if Great Britain were defeated in war I hoped we should find a Hitler to lead us back to our rightful position among the nations. I am sorry, however, that he has not been mellowed by the great success that has attended him. The whole world would rejoice to see the Hitler of peace and tolerance, and nothing would adorn his name in world history so much as acts of magnanimity and of mercy and of pity to the forlorn and friendless, to the weak and poor. ... Let this great man search his own heart and conscience before he accuses anyone of being a warmonger.

and

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations.

I wonder if the red nosed Churchill had consumed his daily quart of brandy when he made those comments.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Firstly, Godwins law should have been enacted from post one.

Secondly, stating "Seems the Germans are a little too nostalgic for the good of days of Blitzkrieg. " because 25% of an unscientific poll agreed that somegood came of the period of rule of the socialist party is so laughable I may need stitches.

Complete non-story.

/Thread.

 

[BrownTown]

There are several very important things here that should be noted and I will do so below:

1. GREAT example of using a loaded poll question to manufacture results. The poll asks a question which can only truthfully be answered "yes", but then acts as though an answer of "yes" means someone is a Nazi.

2. Authoritarian governments DO have some good sides. They instill a very strong rule of law and help to eliminate crime and bring order to a country. You are a fool if you do not understand that EVERY form of government has SOME good side and some bas side. However in our society we consider the bad side of Authoritarianism (the lack of freedoms) to outweigh its benefits.

3. Like it or not Hitler was a "great" man in so far as that term is used to describe people who brought considerable change to this world. The fact of the matter is that if Hitler had been content with all the success he had in bringing Germany back to its historical strength of power he would have gone down in Germany history as a great hero, and would be talked about in History texts as a great leader and be paid many honors. HOWEVER as we all know Hitler was not content to bring Germany back to it normal place, he wanted much much MORE, and in the end he and the German people paid the price.

4. Not really related, but I just want to point out that going back in history there are hundreds of political leaders who were probably as bad or worse as Hitler in terms of warmongering and genocide, some of these are even regarded today as positive figures (think for example Roman general Scipio Africanus who is regarded as a military genius for defeating Hannibal at the battle of Zama, but at the same time this victory resulted in the complete destruction of Carthage and the enslavement or murder of all its peoples). The view many people seem to have of Hitler as "most evil leader ever" is simply propaganda, he was no more evil than many other leaders around at the time and before. I mean we all know Hitlers name, but who here knows the names of the people who caused the Armenian genocide, or Rwanda, or Darfur, or the 100 other genocides that have gone on through history and continue to this very day.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
There are several very important things here that should be noted and I will do so below:

1. GREAT example of using a loaded poll question to manufacture results. The poll asks a question which can only truthfully be answered "yes", but then acts as though an answer of "yes" means someone is a Nazi.

2. Authoritarian governments DO have some good sides. They instill a very strong rule of law and help to eliminate crime and bring order to a country. You are a fool if you do not understand that EVERY form of government has SOME good side and some bas side. However in our society we consider the bad side of Authoritarianism (the lack of freedoms) to outweigh its benefits.

3. Like it or not Hitler was a "great" man in so far as that term is used to describe people who brought considerable change to this world. The fact of the matter is that if Hitler had been content with all the success he had in bringing Germany back to its historical strength of power he would have gone down in Germany history as a great hero, and would be talked about in History texts as a great leader and be paid many honors. HOWEVER as we all know Hitler was not content to bring Germany back to it normal place, he wanted much much MORE, and in the end he and the German people paid the price.

4. Not really related, but I just want to point out that going back in history there are hundreds of political leaders who were probably as bad or worse as Hitler in terms of warmongering and genocide, some of these are even regarded today as positive figures (think for example Roman general Scipio Africanus who is regarded as a military genius for defeating Hannibal at the battle of Zama, but at the same time this victory resulted in the complete destruction of Carthage and the enslavement or murder of all its peoples). The view many people seem to have of Hitler as "most evil leader ever" is simply propaganda, he was no more evil than many other leaders around at the time and before. I mean we all know Hitlers name, but who here knows the names of the people who caused the Armenian genocide, or Rwanda, or Darfur, or the 100 other genocides that have gone on through history and continue to this very day.

Great post. Another example of point four would be Ernesto 'Che' Guevara. People laud him as being a perfect revolutionary, when in reality he became nothing more than that which he himself claimed to despise. He sent many people to their deaths under the auspices of justice.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Have you never heard the statement ?Mussolini made the trains run on time??

In essence some times good things come from bad things.

Is that your rationale for the Bush presidency?

 

[Sunner]

A more recent parallel would be Saddam.
A tyrant? Yes of course.
Did his rule bring some good things? Yes, plenty of them in fact.

 

[Genx87]

You do realize our Highway system was built in the 195\60s for the exact same reason right?

 

[StageLeft]

I'm sure there were good parts. Demonizing everything with the word Nazi is shortsighted and simpleminded. For instance, there were technologies that came about from Nazis that have motivated things we use today, so that's an example of a positive aspect from it. Nothing is ever black and white, even if Nazi rule was mostly black.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Genx87
You do realize our Highway system was built in the 195\60s for the exact same reason right?

Because of the Nazis?

😛

Great Depression- Infrastructure
Dust Bowl- Modern soil conservation practices


They should have asked "Given that some good (infrastructure etc) came out of Nazi rule, do you support what they did?"

I bet that would have a different response.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: techs
Construction of the highway system?
To move tanks and troops more efficiently. Check.


the elimination of unemployment?
Put many Germans to work building tanks and planes to enslave world. Didn't count unemployed Jews and leftists. Since the would be dead soon. Check


the low criminality rate
Give criminals brown shirts and put them above the law. Check


the encouragement of the family
More babies equals more soldiers. Check.

Just proves those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
Good thing the have the anti-holocaust denial laws in Germany. Seems the Germans are a little too nostalgic for the good of days of Blitzkrieg.

Speaking of history, you got a couple things partially right, but I think it's time you opened a few more history books and got to reading.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Genx87
You do realize our Highway system was built in the 195\60s for the exact same reason right?

Because of the Nazis?

😛

Great Depression- Infrastructure
Dust Bowl- Modern soil conservation practices


They should have asked "Given that some good (infrastructure etc) came out of Nazi rule, do you support what they did?"

I bet that would have a different response.

Well, actually, yes. Eisenhower saw the usefullnes of the German autobahn for his own troops as they entered Germany as well as how useful it was for the German troops.
Especially important was the wide clearances for bridges. The US was stuck with the Sherman tank because it was just small enough to fit through existing road and rail junctions.

 

[Rainsford]

I'm quite frankly surprised and disappointed by the OTHER poll result, that 70% could see no good at all from Nazi rule. This speaks to a lack of clear thinking and rational discourse among people (Germans in this case, but it would work the same for anyone) when it comes to difficult topics. The poll wasn't asking whether Nazi rule was good overall, but that's the question 70% of the people answered. It would be like asking Americans whether we think Islamic terrorists have some legitimate complaints...most people would answer the question "do you support terrorism".

 

[techs]

I look at this differently than some people here. To say 'some good' came from the Nazis would be like saying some good came from the Great Depression because milk prices were lower.
You have to consider the price that was paid. Otherwise you could say some good came from killing your neighbor. You now have a better parking spot.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: techs
I look at this differently than some people here. To say 'some good' came from the Nazis would be like saying some good came from the Great Depression because milk prices were lower.
You have to consider the price that was paid. Otherwise you could say some good came from killing your neighbor. You now have a better parking spot.

No, some good from the great depression could be, for instance, people recalibrating their outlook on economics so that even when the bad times pass, they keep the lesson close. The example of the highway system is a good one. Similarly, if the GD KEPT milk prices down even after it passed, then that would be a good thing.

 

[RMich]

Why should this surprise anybody? Many posters here on this forum advocate letting their government torture, tap their citizens phones and search their houses without warrants, hold people prisoner without the right of habeas corpus, invade nations on false pretexts, and want to respond with a scorched earth policy if their invasions are met by resistance. With so many wanna-be fascists right here on this message board, why should we be surprised there are still a few in Germany?

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: techs
I look at this differently than some people here. To say 'some good' came from the Nazis would be like saying some good came from the Great Depression because milk prices were lower.
You have to consider the price that was paid. Otherwise you could say some good came from killing your neighbor. You now have a better parking spot.

Actually you now have a prison cell. Time to go to example school too.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: RMich
Why should this surprise anybody? Many posters here on this forum advocate letting their government torture, tap their citizens phones and search their houses without warrants, hold people prisoner without the right of habeas corpus, invade nations on false pretexts, and want to respond with a scorched earth policy if their invasions are met by resistance. With so many wanna-be fascists right here on this message board, why should we be surprised there are still a few in Germany?

 

[biostud]

Seeing the state that Germany was in after WWI and the absurd inflation rates, it would be hard to argue that the nazi regime did not strengthen the economy and society for lots of people. However, the sacrifices and atrocities made by the regime is not legitimized by the good things that happened.

"In January, 1921, there were 64 marks to the dollar. By November, 1923 this had changed to 4,200,000,000,000 marks to the dollar.", not a sign of a healthy economy

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: techs
I look at this differently than some people here. To say 'some good' came from the Nazis would be like saying some good came from the Great Depression because milk prices were lower.
You have to consider the price that was paid. Otherwise you could say some good came from killing your neighbor. You now have a better parking spot.

Some good has come from the worst events in human history. At the very least, they serve as cautionary example to future generations as to why something may be a bad idea. But you're answering the wrong question.

At its most basic, we can look at pros, cons and the overall picture. You're jumping the shark and saying that, overall, the Nazis were bad (and most people will agree with you). But the question is asking about the pros only; specifically, if there were any. You'd be hard pressed to make the argument that not one single good thing emerged because of Nazi rule in Germany. So while you are correct that the negatives far outweighed the positives, you're addressing the wrong question.

That said, the question is pointless without addressing the cons. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.