Poll: Should we see the rest of Pics

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We aren't talking, I think, about the beheading. We are talking about pictures of Americans humiliating Iraqi prisoners.

Zebo, all rights have to be balanced one against the other. You don't have freedom of speech to yell fire in a theater. Those pictures are yelling fire in a theater in my opinion. I cannot advocate, in good conscience, releasing pictures which will lead to the death of America soldiers or other innocent people. This matter, disgusting and troubling as it is, should take a back seat to the lives of people on the front lines. We are probably going to get shot over this, but we don't have to shoot ourselves. Let the death of others be on the hands of criminal leakers.

Well I don't feel to strongly about thier censor only because these images and videos are revolting I'm sure. I sure won't look at any of them. Problem I have with governemnt censorship in general is two fold. One they create a situation where these war crimes will not be under review by any independant body so the coverup is likly to continue as they already are doing with higher-ups not being named or pursued right now. I mean how can we expect those who condone and/or encouraged such behavior to fairly investigate or put an end to it. Sure "no camera allowed anymore" would be a good start to curtailing this behavior hehe but the liklyhood of stopping this toture culture they have created is nill. Same ole same ole with better discression.

Second is the slippery slopy. McVieh said seeing the way the FEDS manhandled the waco folks gave him all the reason he needed for revenge at OKC bombing. Do we stop these images from being broadcast? Several parents in the 80s sued OZZY aledging thier children commited suicide over a track called "suicide solution". Do we stop these artists? and who decides? FPS games have been blamed for school shootings...well you get where I'm going with this. People are nut jobs out there and can find justification for thier vile actions but to censor certainly will not prevent them they'll just find somthing else to blame until I can't even listen to frank sinatra cause everything on the planet is banned.

So basically your getting no citizen review maybe or maybe not fixing the problem and setting a bad precedent in censoring.

Grab the bull by it's horns. The truth will set you free.

Zebo, I have the same concerns. The issue, I think, is balance and that is a matter of judgment. We are talking about a situation taking place in the middle of an active war while hostilities are still going on. The pictures can wait till that's over. Free speech is vital, but you still can't yell fire. The question is where is that line in this case. Also, I suspect that the cover-up is going on and would and will go on one way or the other and people can more easily rationalize and justify covering it up it when so much is at stake in battle. "We can't let the American people know that Bush authorized the torture, we could loose the support of the American people and the war.", for example. Grabbing the bull by the horns is one thing. Guiding the bull into a group of innocent bystanders is quite another.
.

Originally posted by: gordy
whats the big deal, hell people pay good money here in the states to get treatment like they got, people pay good money to see it too..

hell, the MP's coulda been workin to make some side scratch: "EPOWS Gone Wild"

I love how Nancy Pelosi feigned wretching while walking out of the viewing area of the latest round of 'sexual depravity' images, the irony... doesn't she and her ilk fight for the right of the most debased sexual depravities?

MP's should have gotten Bronze Stars.

I hope you are not an American.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: biostud666
No. It's against the Geneva convention, it will be harder to prosecute those responsible, and might also cost more life on both sides.

As long as there's taken care of business in a proper manner.

Then it's a coverup.

I cannot advocate, in good conscience, releasing pictures which will lead to the death of America soldiers or other innocent people. This matter, disgusting and troubling as it is, should take a back seat to the lives of people on the front lines. We are probably going to get shot over this, but we don't have to shoot ourselves. Let the death of others be on the hands of criminal leakers.

as my parents would say to me when I ditched school. "you should have thought of the consequences then, shouldnt ya?"

Is it really so difficult to understand that paying a personal price for bad behavior is not the issue here. You are saying that America should pay for the crimes of one group with the lives of others. That's not how justice works. You think exactly like the people who did the beheading.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: biostud666
No. It's against the Geneva convention, it will be harder to prosecute those responsible, and might also cost more life on both sides.

As long as there's taken care of business in a proper manner.

Then it's a coverup.

I cannot advocate, in good conscience, releasing pictures which will lead to the death of America soldiers or other innocent people. This matter, disgusting and troubling as it is, should take a back seat to the lives of people on the front lines. We are probably going to get shot over this, but we don't have to shoot ourselves. Let the death of others be on the hands of criminal leakers.

as my parents would say to me when I ditched school. "you should have thought of the consequences then, shouldnt ya?"

Is it really so difficult to understand that paying a personal price for bad behavior is not the issue here. You are saying that America should pay for the crimes of one group with the lives of others. That's not how justice works. You think exactly like the people who did the beheading.

well, that particular group of individuals would have killed that young man regardless of the prison abuse scandal. I mean, the pictures are probably gonna be leaked anyway, so why wait. It just makes the country look worse. They should lay the cards out on the table, and get it over with, punish those responsible in the public forum, and repair our image. Brushing it under the rug is not how you gain trust and confidence, not only amoung the american people, but the world at large.

As far the terrorists go, tomorrow they'll find another reason to kill an american, and next week they will have another excuse. They're terrorists, in their minds eye, they needn't no justification to kill americans. They'll just label it whatever excuse happens to be the flavor of the month.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito
IMO the collateral consequences of releasing these pictures (i.e., that the Iraqi insurgents might show less mercy for Americans, especially captured ones) will happen anyway. This is part of the reason I think the prisoner abuse scandal is such a big deal.

That said, it seems to me these people hate Americans so much anyway that the prisoner abuse is a secondary issue. I think withholding the pictures just aggravates the perception that our government is corrupt and has something to hide. Releasing them (with the faces blurred to protect the privacy of the inmates AND jailers) would send the message that we are willing to take responsibility for our actions, as long as it was paired with a sincere effort to get to the bottom of the problem and correct it. Unfortunately I don't think we have, to this point, demonstrated an adequate willingness to deal with this problem, and frankly I think President Bush needs to take bold action on this issue, and soon.

There are imponderables and unknowns involved about which we can only speculate I know, but to me the issue is less that existing insurgents will show less mercy, but that the actual pictures will be used actively as tools to recruit more insurgents who will then in turn die as they kill others. Also if there will be no increase in mercy regardless of the release then likewise there likewise shouldn't be any headroom an any increase in the aggravation of suspicion. I agree that we should send the message that we are willing to take responsibility for our actions by a sincere effort to get to the bottom of the problem and correct it but without releasing the photos. Let the punishment of those responsible tell that tale. Unfortunately I also don't think we have, to this point, demonstrated an adequate willingness to deal with this problem, and frankly because my suspicion is that this abuse was sanctioned right at the top. Therefore I don't expect Bush to take any action other than trying to pin it on a small few. If you are willing to kill thousands of innocent people in an illegal war of aggression, what's a little prisoner abuse?

I do however profoundly respect your opinion. You to Zebo. The major damage is already done since some photos are already out there so it's a six of one half a dozen of the other sort of mess now.

 

[Moonbeam]

rickn: well, that particular group of individuals would have killed that young man regardless of the prison abuse scandal.

M: I heard that they actively announced that the beheading took place as revenge for the prison thing. Neither you nor I have any real knowledge as to how true that is. There is no question that the release of the photos is considered a huge deal. The prison abuse was intended to humiliate. You suggest it didn't and I think it did. People kill when they are humiliated. Some cultures take some things worse than others.

r:I mean, the pictures are probably gonna be leaked anyway, so why wait. It just makes the country look worse. T

M: They probably will be as I already said. We just don't have to be the ones to self inflict the would. Let somebody who doesn't care that people will die release the photos. It won't be on our conscience as a people.

r: They should lay the cards out on the table, and get it over with, punish those responsible in the public forum, and repair our image. Brushing it under the rug is not how you gain trust and confidence, not only amoung the american people, but the world at large.

M: I'm the last person who wants it brushed under the table. I don't think releasing the photos has anything to do with bringing those who took them and are responsible for what is in them to justice. It is justice and appropriate punishment and taking this up as far as it goes that will send the message we want the world to hear, not the photos themselves. They can come out when the violence is ended.

r: As far the terrorists go, tomorrow they'll find another reason to kill an american, and next week they will have another excuse. They're terrorists, in their minds eye, they needn't no justification to kill americans. They'll just label it whatever excuse happens to be the flavor of the month.

M: Doubtless there are many who are criminally insane that are beyond the claim of reason. They have taken the plunge and have their own story as to how they became insane. Those we can write off. What we can do is not ourselves release material that will cause others not yet so committed to take that same plunge. Terrorists aren't created ex nihilo.l

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: biostud666
No. It's against the Geneva convention, it will be harder to prosecute those responsible, and might also cost more life on both sides.

As long as there's taken care of business in a proper manner.

According to people wishing to sweep this under the rug, it wasn't against the Geneva Convention to treat the prisoners as they were treated in the first place, it wasn't against the Geneva convention to show pictures and video of Saddam being "checked" like livestock, it wasn't against the Geneva convention to show other Iraqi and/or Afghan prisoners of war on television and in papers, and it isn't against the Geneva convention to invent new categories to put POWs into and put them into detention camps indefinitely (spare me the whole "enemy combatants drivel... if this really is a "war on terror," then that means even proven terrorists... the overwhelming minority of those being held... are "prisoners of that war"). But when it becomes apparent that seeing the pictures is leading a great number of people, both in America and abroad, to question the US' handling of the war and its prisoners, THEN it's "against the Geneva Convention."

Either you follow the Geneva Convention or you don't... you don't pick and choose when to invoke it, based on how well it will benefit your cause. Now you'll say, of course, that other countries are not following it... But if we don't, why should we expect them to? If we don't because they don't, how can we even pretend to be any better? And at the end of the day, I think people need to realize that at this point in the game, the more things are hidden, the worse it will seem. If you tell people that while the first few were ok for the public to see, they should not be permitted to see the rest for fear that it would incite violence... do you think most people are going to assume they're milder or far worse?

Unfortunately, all this is going down in the last several months of a presidency of someone up for re-election. If he were a democrat, a great number of those who want them hidden would want them released, and vice versa. But elections aside, this is a serious issue that is going to affect the US government's standing in the eyes of the people and the eyes of the world for many years to come. This is an issue that plenty of people from both sides of the fence need to be held accountable for; not just the administration and not just republicans or neoconservatives. Every senator, Republican and Democrat alike, who voted to give the administration so much leeway and so much freedom to do as it saw fit without the checks and balances that our government system is supposed to be based upon is just as responsible as Bush, as Rumsfeld, as Gen. Janice Karpinsky, as Sgt. Chip Frederick, as PFC Lynndie England, as many others whose names have not yet come into the public spotlight.

This whole incident doesn't make the US evil or unjust and shouldn't make us seem so. But a refusal to take it seriously, to deal with it seriously, and to take serious actions that will help ensure that it doesn't happen again... that might.

cumhail

 

[rickn]

another reason for releasing the photos

a terrorist(or the common jackass) with photoshop know-how and email account, and look what might happen.

 

[gistech1978]

Originally posted by: chess9
NO!

Why take any chance with our soldier's lives? Let them assume all they want, but don't give them actual pictures. I actually agree with the Republicans about this. So shoot me. (Oops, don't tell Galt I said that. He's such a literalist....)

-Robert

thats not an argument.
chances were taken with our soldiers lives for over a year before the pictures came out, no?
would Iraq be a peaceful, democratic land right now had those pictures not came out?
were there no uprisings before the pictures came out?

is 'bring em on' not taking chances with our soliders lives?

 

[EXman]

yes get them over with.

I'm tired of the outrage over this is bigger than the beheadding of an American contractor.

Who cares F the opinion of people who already hate us to death they cannot hate us anymore than they already do.

we have 135,000 people over there of course there are gonna be a few bad apples. if you don't think so your living in foolishland.

Get over the outrage already. These were staged by some war hater anyhow. and the people posing were retards for letting the asshat with the camera to take pics.

Right now they are the enemy.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: EXman

Get over the outrage already. These were staged by some war hater anyhow. and the people posing were retards for letting the asshat with the camera to take pics.

That's a novel theory, and one that not even Scty Rumsfeld, or the most conservative voices in Congress have advanced. Any evidence of that? It seems to me to defy common sense, but if you have proof I'd be interested to read about it.

 

[Genx87]

It will only serve to fuel the political agendas of a few people. We already know it has happened. Providing more pictures will only serve to drag this on for the mud-slingers and opportunists.

They will be released now doubt but it really doesnt matter IMO as we have already seen enough to know something was wrong.

 

[gordy]

Originally posted by: MoonbeamI hope you are not an American.

Not by birth, born in Vancouver B.C. sough political assylum from the socialists and moved to the States... do miss the Surrey girls though..


But arent left-leaning intelligent ideologues supposed to celebrate diversity, and critical thinking?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: gordy
whats the big deal, hell people pay good money here in the states to get treatment like they got, people pay good money to see it too..

hell, the MP's coulda been workin to make some side scratch: "EPOWS Gone Wild"

I love how Nancy Pelosi feigned wretching while walking out of the viewing area of the latest round of 'sexual depravity' images, the irony... doesn't she and her ilk fight for the right of the most debased sexual depravities?

MP's should have gotten Bronze Stars.

Originally posted by: gordy

Originally posted by: MoonbeamI hope you are not an American.

Not by birth, born in Vancouver B.C. sough political assylum from the socialists and moved to the States... do miss the Surrey girls though..


But arent left-leaning intelligent ideologues supposed to celebrate diversity, and critical thinking?

You should have been checked for Trichinosis before you crossed the border and gotten a swine flu shot.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: biostud666
No. It's against the Geneva convention, it will be harder to prosecute those responsible, and might also cost more life on both sides.

As long as there's taken care of business in a proper manner.

According to people wishing to sweep this under the rug, it wasn't against the Geneva Convention to treat the prisoners as they were treated in the first place, it wasn't against the Geneva convention to show pictures and video of Saddam being "checked" like livestock, it wasn't against the Geneva convention to show other Iraqi and/or Afghan prisoners of war on television and in papers, and it isn't against the Geneva convention to invent new categories to put POWs into and put them into detention camps indefinitely (spare me the whole "enemy combatants drivel... if this really is a "war on terror," then that means even proven terrorists... the overwhelming minority of those being held... are "prisoners of that war"). But when it becomes apparent that seeing the pictures is leading a great number of people, both in America and abroad, to question the US' handling of the war and its prisoners, THEN it's "against the Geneva Convention."

Either you follow the Geneva Convention or you don't... you don't pick and choose when to invoke it, based on how well it will benefit your cause. Now you'll say, of course, that other countries are not following it... But if we don't, why should we expect them to? If we don't because they don't, how can we even pretend to be any better? And at the end of the day, I think people need to realize that at this point in the game, the more things are hidden, the worse it will seem. If you tell people that while the first few were ok for the public to see, they should not be permitted to see the rest for fear that it would incite violence... do you think most people are going to assume they're milder or far worse?

Unfortunately, all this is going down in the last several months of a presidency of someone up for re-election. If he were a democrat, a great number of those who want them hidden would want them released, and vice versa. But elections aside, this is a serious issue that is going to affect the US government's standing in the eyes of the people and the eyes of the world for many years to come. This is an issue that plenty of people from both sides of the fence need to be held accountable for; not just the administration and not just republicans or neoconservatives. Every senator, Republican and Democrat alike, who voted to give the administration so much leeway and so much freedom to do as it saw fit without the checks and balances that our government system is supposed to be based upon is just as responsible as Bush, as Rumsfeld, as Gen. Janice Karpinsky, as Sgt. Chip Frederick, as PFC Lynndie England, as many others whose names have not yet come into the public spotlight.

This whole incident doesn't make the US evil or unjust and shouldn't make us seem so. But a refusal to take it seriously, to deal with it seriously, and to take serious actions that will help ensure that it doesn't happen again... that might.

cumhail

Excellent post. If these abuses were committed by the nations we rail against in our perpetul wars an international war crimes tribunal would even now be empanelled and we would be seeking regime change. But not here, the hypocisy is stunning.