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Poll - Should we leave Iraq?

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Lifer
Bush Says Leaving Iraq Now Would Be a 'Mistake'
President sympathizes with protester Cindy Sheehan, who has been camped near the presidential ranch in Crawford, Texas, for days.

By Michael Muskal, Times Staff Writer


President Bush today expressed sympathy for protester Cindy Sheehan, whose son, a U.S. soldier, died while serving in Baghdad, but insisted that the United States would continue its policy and keep its troops in Iraq.

Sheehan, of Vacaville, Calif., has been near the presidential ranch for days, seeking a meeting with Bush. The 48-year-old mother of Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, who was killed in an ambush in the Iraqi capital last year, has said she wants the president to explain to her why her son died.

Speaking with reporters at his ranch today, Bush expressed sympathy for any American who has lost a relative in the fighting in Iraq, including Sheehan.

"I sympathize with Mrs. Sheehan. She feels strongly about her position, and she has every right in the world to say what she believes. This is America. She has a right to her position. And I've thought long and hard about her position. I've heard her position from others, which is, get out of Iraq now.

"It would be a mistake for the security of this country and the ability to lay the foundations for peace in the long run if we were to do so," Bush said.

Bush also described some of the meetings he has held with relatives of dead American soldiers.

"I've met with a lot of families and I have done my best to bring comfort to the families and honor to the loved one. And you get different opinions when you meet with moms and dads and sons and daughters and wives and husbands of those who've fallen.

"One opinion I've come away with universally is that, you know, we should do everything we can to honor the fallen. And one way to honor the fallen is to lay the foundation for peace."

Bush did not address why he has not met with Sheehan.

Sheehan, a co-founder of the antiwar group Gold Star Families for Peace, has said she would remain in Crawford until she got to see Bush face to face.

LA Times Article - Sorry I didn't use a Fox News one Zendari

I would have to agree with Bush on this, not sure if we agree on the same reasons though. I also agree with him on not setting a "timetable" that is a very bad idea.

It's pretty clear to most indiviuals that we went to Iraq because they apparently had "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and we haven't found any in any substantial quanity besides those left over from the Iran-Iraq war.

In my opinion, I beileve that we screwed up and that this war should have never took place. However, we've got a moral obligation to show to the world we can fix our mistakes, it would not be a "wise" decision to just bail out. Right now, the rest of the world doesn't particularly like the United States. Reguardless of how powerful the rest of the world is, it's not a good idea to be pissing of the rest of the world.

We should do our absolute best to make sure Iraq gets a stable goverment, it appears this may not happen with our current administration.
 
You break it, you buy it. That's the ONLY reason I see staying there. We need to clean up our mess (that shouldn't have EVER happened in the first place.)
 
lol@people whose claim to fame is a gas guzzling Ford "muscle car" while soldiers are dying in Operation Iraqi Liberation.
 
Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
lol@people saying we should leave right now

I like my tax dollars (and loans from China) spent on domestic projects, not Dubya and Haliburton's Excellent Adventure.
 
It's kinda like realizing that you are dating a stalker. You know you should leave, but you are also afraid of the consequences of what will happen once you do.

On a side note, I saw what Bush said about the protesters and felt that he, for a change, gave a very sincere and good answer when asked about them. I read it last night and was impressed but was holding out judgement to see if he said it with that smart@ss grin that he gives when you know he is just paying you lipservice. He actually seemed genuine and impressed me. Where did I leave my Xanex now? I'm gonna need it after admitting to that!
 
10,000 dead
50,000 wounded
200,000 future PTSD patients
no weapons found
no link to terrorism
150,000 dead Iraqi's
Iraq left in complete chaos { insurgents, crime, rape, kidnapping }
Osma still not caught
Gas prices sky rocketing
$8 Trillion National Debt
middle class shrinking
jobs being outsourced

I'm beginning to miss Bill Clinton....
 
Originally posted by: 13Gigatons
10,000 dead
50,000 wounded
200,000 future PTSD patients
no weapons found
no link to terrorism
150,000 dead Iraqi's
Iraq left in complete chaos { insurgents, crime, rape, kidnapping }
Osma still not caught
Gas prices sky rocketing
$8 Trillion National Debt
middle class shrinking
jobs being outsourced

I'm beginning to miss Bill Clinton....

Heh some people

Anyways if we left it would send a bad message. First it would enrage the Islamic world that we let the people of Iraq to flounder twice in the past 15 years. Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

This means you can expect more political pressure in the EU. If they dont bend bombs explode in the market.
 
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.
 
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

Did I say that? Leaving now means a collapse of the Iraq govt.
When the Iraqi's are self sufficient then we can leave. Anything after that point is on the Iraqi's hands.

 
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

These are people who can't admit when they make a mistake so they can't fix their own errors -- and Iraq is among the greatest errors ever made by a U.S. president.
 
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

These are people who can't admit when they make a mistake so they can't fix their own errors -- and Iraq is among the greatest errors ever made by a U.S. president.

I can think of a couple worse.

I find it slightly appaling some are willing to make two mistakes.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

Did I say that? Leaving now means a collapse of the Iraq govt.
When the Iraqi's are self sufficient then we can leave. Anything after that point is on the Iraqi's hands.

We have a what, 70 country coalition? The UN, NATO, Iraqi army, etc. Why do we need 140,000 Amreicans, it's a handful of terrorist in their last throes? I thought things were going well?

Of course if we didn't do this alone for the sake of handing out rebuilding money in return for political favors, we wouldn't be in this alone with troops being drafted for the third tour.



 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

These are people who can't admit when they make a mistake so they can't fix their own errors -- and Iraq is among the greatest errors ever made by a U.S. president.

I can think of a couple worse.

I find it slightly appaling some are willing to make two mistakes.

Continuing a mistake doesn't help. I thought this country learned that in Vietnam. Apparently you learned nothing.
 
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

Did I say that? Leaving now means a collapse of the Iraq govt.
When the Iraqi's are self sufficient then we can leave. Anything after that point is on the Iraqi's hands.

We have a what, 70 country coalition? The UN, NATO, Iraqi army, etc. Why do we need 140,000 Amreicans, it's a handful of terrorist in their last throes? I thought things were going well?

Of course if we didn't do this alone for the sake of handing out rebuilding money in return for political favors, we wouldn't be in this alone with troops being drafted for the third tour.

I thought you liberals didnt believe everything Bush said? God knows not many conservatives bought the foolish line of "in the last throes".

Anyways back to something of substance. NATO sent in some munitions and a few trainers. The UN is as usuall completely helpless and as lost as a 3 year old child.

We are there and created the situation. The only moral thing to do is to finish the job to the point where Iraq can sustain itself.

 
The reason we went to Iraq was mainly no bid contracts. Companies who were campaign contributors got kick backs in the form of no bid contracts for work done in Iraq.
 
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Todd33
Second it would let the terrorists know if they persist enough they can win anything.

So if the terrorist stay forever, we have to? What a lame macho argument. I suppose the North Vietnamese are going around the world attacking the US, according to your logic.

What was our mission? Get rid of the WMDs? Check (that was easy), remove Saddam, check. Nation building? Bush is against that, according to his 2000 debate, so lets roll folks. Let the 100,000,000 (what's the current fabricated number?) trained Iraqis handle it.

These are people who can't admit when they make a mistake so they can't fix their own errors -- and Iraq is among the greatest errors ever made by a U.S. president.

I can think of a couple worse.

I find it slightly appaling some are willing to make two mistakes.

Continuing a mistake doesn't help. I thought this country learned that in Vietnam. Apparently you learned nothing.

Even if you consider it a mistake, anybody with an IQ higher than a rabbit understands the implications of leaving Iraq before it is sustainable.

Making two mistakes is worse than fixing the first.

You are the type of person if we left tomorrow and in 12 months Iraq was in cival war would complain that we need to stop the genocide going on in Iraq.

 
Originally posted by: 13Gigatons
The reason we went to Iraq was mainly no bid contracts. Companies who were campaign contributors got kick backs in the form of no bid contracts for work done in Iraq.

Talk to Clinton, he set those up.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
We are there and created the situation. The only moral thing to do is to finish the job to the point where Iraq can sustain itself.

You have no morals when getting into a war, but you have them when it's time to leave. How convenient. I wish my morals were that flexible.

Iraq is headed for civil war. The country really should be three countries, being forced together is only causing problems. Saddam was the glue and now we are hoping a piece of paper will be as strong, not likely.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: 13Gigatons
The reason we went to Iraq was mainly no bid contracts. Companies who were campaign contributors got kick backs in the form of no bid contracts for work done in Iraq.

Talk to Clinton, he set those up.

That is an awesome display of ignorance. Cheney set up LOGCAP while he was SoD. He paid KBR to develop the program then he took the helm of KBR's parent company, Halliburton, and set in motion the policies that would allow Halliburton to take advantage of the policy he imposed while SoD.

WTFU, you're being had by a group of criminals masquerading as patriots. Chickenhawk war-profiteers making billions of the blood and guts of U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians. They truly rank among the worst people on Earth.
 
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15426

The Facts on Halliburton
By Michael P. Tremoglie
FrontPageMagazine.com | October 8, 2004

To partisans of a liberal, radical, and Democratic Party background, Halliburton is synonymous with evil, the symbol of cloven-footed, corrupt capitalism.

According to the these activists, Halliburton is the treasonous corporation of which VP Cheney was formerly CEO -- treasonous because the company is reaping profits from the war in Iraq as our bravest young men are dying.

Both John Kerry and John Edwards have picked up on this. Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry recently said, "the only people George Bush's policies are working for are the people he chooses to help?They're working for drug companies. They're working for oil companies...and they're certainly working for Halliburton." Edwards likewise inserted this issue into this week's vice presidential debate.

It has been a reigning motif of the conspiracist Left that has slowly gained the mainstream acceptance of the man who could be the next president -- and the man who could be the frontrunner in the 2008 presidential race.

The Left has been on this theme for quite some time. According to an article by Carl Hiassen, in the April 25 edition of the Miami Herald, "Dick Cheney had gotten the war he wanted. One year later, it's costing us a staggering $4.7 billion a month, or about $157 million per day. A hefty chunk of that is being spent on support services provided in Iraq by Halliburton, the Texas company that Cheney ran before joining the Bush ticket in 2000. Cheney says he has severed his ties to Halliburton and had nothing to do with the lucrative no-bid contracts awarded to the firm. Not everyone is persuaded that the connection is merely coincidental."

All this rhetoric echoes the words of the revolutionary Marxist journal International Socialist Review (ISO), which has made reference to the "corporate invasion of Iraq by large U.S. corporations like Halliburton."[1]

Why do leftists demonize Halliburton? What proof exists of their claims of corruption? What exactly has Halliburton done to profit from American military casualties? Indeed, have they profited from military casualties? Is there a special relationship between the Bush administration and Halliburton so that the company receives contracts without observing the normal bidding process?

It is certainly true that during a two year period Halliburton?s revenue from Defense Department contracts doubled. However, that increase in revenue occurred from 1998 to 2000 - during the Clinton administration.

In 1998, Halliburton's total revenue was $14.5 billion, which included $284 million of Pentagon contracts. Two years later, Halliburton?s DoD contracts more than doubled.

Regarding the Iraq contracts, Halliburton was accused by Democrats of receiving special "no-bid" contracts because of Cheney?s influence. One advertisement by the Democrats charged, "Bush gave contracts to Halliburton instead of fighting corporate corruption."

FactCheck.org an organization which ascertains the validity of political campaign advertisements researched this accusation. According to FactCheck, "The Bush administration is doing a fair amount to fight corporate corruption, convicting or indicting executives of Enron, Arthur Andersen, Tyco International, Worldcom, Adelphia Communications Corporation, Credit Suisse First Boston, HealthSouth Corporation and others, including Martha Stewart. The Department of Justice says it has brought charges against 20 executives of Enron alone, and its Corporate Fraud Task Force says it has won convictions of more than 250 persons to date. Bush also signed the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation in 2002, imposing stringent new accounting rules in the wake of the Arthur Andersen scandal."

When Factcheck.org checked the facts about allegations by Democrats that there was a scandal because of the "no-bid" contracts awarded to Halliburton they stated, "It is false to imply that Bush personally awarded a contract to Halliburton. The ?no-bid contract? in question is actually an extension of an earlier contract to support U.S. troops overseas that Halliburton won under open bidding. In fact, the notion that Halliburton benefited from any cronyism has been poo-poohed by a Harvard University professor, Steven Kelman, who was administrator of the Office of Federal Procurement Policy in the Clinton administration. ?One would be hard-pressed to discover anyone with a working knowledge of how federal contracts are awarded...who doesn't regard these allegations as being somewhere between highly improbable and utterly absurd,? Kelman wrote in the Washington Post last November." (Emphasis added.)

The Center for Public Integrity another public interest group also investigated the purported scandal of the Halliburton "no-bid" contracts. They wrote:

In Iraq, Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) has been awarded five contracts worth at least $10.8 billion, including more than $5.6 billion under the U.S. Army's Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP) contract, an omnibus contract that allows the Army to call on KBR for support in all of its field operations. When the Army needs a service performed, it issues a "task order," which lays out specific work requirements under the contract?From 1992 to 1997, KBR held the first LOGCAP contract awarded by the Army, but when it was time to renew the contract, the company lost in the competitive bidding process to DynCorp after the General Accounting Office reported in February 1997 that KBR had overrun its estimated costs in the Balkans by 32 percent (some of which was attributed to an increase in the Army's demands). KBR (obtained) the third LOGCAP contract in December 2001?n November 2002 the Army Corps of Engineers tasked KBR to develop a contingency plan for extinguishing oil well fires in Iraq?[O]n March 24, 2003, the Army Corps announced publicly that KBR had been awarded a contract to restore oil-infrastructure in Iraq, potentially worth $7 billion. The contract KBR received?would eventually include 10 distinct task orders. KBR did not come close to reaching the contract ceiling, billing just over $2.5 billion?The contract was awarded without submission for public bids or congressional notification. In their response to congressional inquiries, Army officials said they determined that extinguishing oil fires fell under the range of services provided under LOGCAP, meaning that KBR could deploy quickly and without additional security clearances.

Neither the Center for Public Integrity nor Factcheck.org determined anything sinister about Halliburton?s no-bid" contracts for the Iraq war. Two nonpartisan, nonaligned, public interest organizations have investigated the Halliburton allegations and found them to be specious allegations made for purely political purposes.

An L.A. Times op-ed of April 22 said, "Halliburton Received No-Bid Contracts During Clinton Administration For Work In Bosnia And Kosovo." An October 2003 article in the (Raleigh, NC) News & Observer quoted Bill Clinton's Undersecretary Of Commerce William Reinsch as saying "'Halliburton has a distinguished track record,' he said. 'They do business in some 120 countries. This is a group of people who know what they're doing in a difficult business. It's a particularly difficult business when people are shooting at you.'"

If Democrats want to investigate a scandal involving Iraq they should devote their efforts to the UN "Oil-for-Food" program instead of Halliburton. However, they will not because Saddam Hussein is not a candidate in this presidential election.

Of course the lieral hypocrites keep pounding ignorantly on Halliburton while ignoring UNSCAM wholesale.
 
Cheney/Halliburton/LOGCAP...

LOGCAP Military Contract

Halliburton's largest government contract is with the United States Army Corps of Engineers. Under the contract, known as "LOGCAP" (or Logistics Civilian Augmentation Program), Halliburton is responsible for providing supplies and services to the military on a global basis. Some of the typical civil logistics carried out under the contract are the construction of military housing for the troops, transporting food and supplies to military bases and serving food at military cafeterias.

The military has always used private contractors to carry out civil logistics, but not to a great extent. In 1985, the military created LOGCAP with the purpose of privatizing more of the duties involved in civil logistics. The military first used LOGCAP in 1988 to construct and maintain two petroleum pipeline systems in Southwest Asia in support of contingency operations. But most of the military's civil logistics activities were still not privatized.

It was Dick Cheney, as defense secretary in 1992, who spearheaded the movement to privatize most of the military's civil logistics activities. Under the direction of Secretary Cheney, the Pentagon paid $9 million to Halliburton's subsidiary, KBR, to conduct a study to determine whether private companies like itself should handle all of the military's civil logistics. KBR's classified study concluded that greater privatization of logistics was in the government's best interest. Shortly thereafter, on August 3, 1992, Secretary Cheney awarded the first comprehensive LOGCAP contract to KBR. The Washington Post reported "The Pentagon chose [KBR] to carry out the study and subsequently selected the company to implement its own plan." Three years later, in 1995, Halliburton hired Cheney as its CEO.

In 1997, two years after Cheney became CEO of Halliburton, KBR's LOGCAP contract was not renewed and the government alleged the company engaged in fraudulent billing practices. The independent auditing arm of Congress, the GAO, had criticized KBR's performance during America's war in the Balkans. GAO said KBR's cost-overruns in the Balkans inflated the original contract price by 32 percent. After KBR was effectively fired by the Army in 1997, the LOGCAP contract was awarded to Halliburton competitor DynCorp. But, after Cheney became vice president in 2001, DynCorp was fired and KBR was re-awarded the contract.

Today, 90 percent of KBR's work under LOGCAP is being done in Iraq. Over 24,000 Halliburton employees and subcontract workers are employed to carryout LOGCAP in the Iraq-Kuwait region.

Halliburton's revenue from LOGCAP increased from $320 million in the second quarter of 2003 to over $2 billion in the fourth quarter of 2003. As of May 2004, the federal government had spent nearly $5 billion on LOGCAP since KBR became the sole contractor in 2001. The original value of LOGCAP in Iraq was estimated at over $4 billion, but the value of the contract is now over $8 billion and could reach $18 billion. These values can change as war conditions change. The $8 billion figure for Iraq does not include KBR's LOGCAP business in dozens of other countries around the globe, including Guantanimo Bay, Cuba, where it constructed the prisons used to house prisoners from Afghanistan.

KBR also performs duties under a second military contract called "Restore Iraqi Oil" (RIO). This contract, valued at $1.2 billion, is unrelated to LOGCAP. Under RIO, KBR is repairing Iraq's dilapidated oil industry in the southern part of the country.

In the 12 months following the fall of Saddam Hussein, KBR had built 64 dining facilities in Iraq and Kuwait, served more than 40 million meals to troops, washed more than a million bundles of laundry, collected over 1.5 million cubic meters of trash and delivered more than 8 million bags of mail.

KBR has more than 700 trucks in the region for delivering supplies to the U.S. military.

In the 13 months following President Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech, thirty Halliburton's employees and subcontract workers in the Iraq-Kuwait region had been killed by violent ambushes orchestrated by Iraqi insurgents. The workers had been performing duties under the LOGCAP contract.


More Information

Reuters: Halliburton's role in Iraq -- from meals to oil
Congressman Henry Waxman website devoted to criticizing Halliburton contracts
Statement of Congressman Waxman on Iraq contracts
LOGCAP official website
GAO report on Halliburton's LOGCAP contract in Bosnia
GAO abstract of report on Halliburton's LOGCAP contract in Bosnia
Washington Post: Halliburton's Deals Greater Than Thought
World Policy Institute: New Data Shows How Contractors Are Cashing In On War On Terror
Iraq reconstruction contracts awarded by the U.S. government
LOGCAP task orders from 2001 thru Spring 2003 (Microsoft Excel Format)
 
Just in case anyone missed this part...

In 1997, two years after Cheney became CEO of Halliburton, KBR's LOGCAP contract was not renewed and the government alleged the company engaged in fraudulent billing practices. The independent auditing arm of Congress, the GAO, had criticized KBR's performance during America's war in the Balkans. GAO said KBR's cost-overruns in the Balkans inflated the original contract price by 32 percent. After KBR was effectively fired by the Army in 1997, the LOGCAP contract was awarded to Halliburton competitor DynCorp. But, after Cheney became vice president in 2001, DynCorp was fired and KBR was re-awarded the contract.
 
Just in case anyone missed this part:

From 1992 to 1997, KBR held the first LOGCAP contract awarded by the Army, but when it was time to renew the contract, the company lost in the competitive bidding process to DynCorp after the General Accounting Office reported in February 1997 that KBR had overrun its estimated costs in the Balkans by 32 percent (some of which was attributed to an increase in the Army's demands).
 
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