Well, if someone brings up something that I haven't discussed, I'll be more than happy to do so. Otherwise, they're just SOL I guess, as I'm not willing to retype the same thing 50 times in the same thread. You can disagree with that, and I can continue to not give a rat's. I tell you you're wrong when you present something as fact that is completely false. I can't do much other than tell you it's false. I can find link after link proving that you're wrong, but you don't seem to care, as obviated by this next quote:
You specifically claimed that a fetus does not have a brain. Of course, anyone who had even thought about this for two minutes would realize how ridiculous it is to suggest that a fetus does not have a brain, but I went further - I gave you a picture of a fetal brain. So what did you do? You just ignore it and continue blissfully forth in your ignorance. I posted links to abortion clinics that claim they're 'late term abortion clinics'. It has their addresses and phone numbers even! If this isn't sufficient evidence, then you will not be persuaded by legal documents, which I doubt you would understand anyway. The point is that if you want to enter into a debate, you should have at least a very basic idea of what the issues are before you go around shooting your mouth off and calling other people stupid. In this case, you clearly do not, as obviated by your claims that a fetus does not have a brain, saying 'a fetus thats a couple days old', and so on. I'm not going to try to educate you from scratch when you refuse all evidence presented to you. If you want to stay ignorant, fine. However, don't expect me to waste any more time trying to help you learn about the issue.
I don't expect them to think. Maybe you can tell me what exactly 'thinking' has to do with the issue of abortion. Are you trying to suggest that the ability to think is a prerequisite for being a person? If so, it would behoove you to say so in plain language rather than this argumentative crap that is essentially meaningless. I'm not asking for you to be well-versed on the issue. I'm not even asked for you to be a skilled debater. I would ask, however, that if you are really interested in a debate on the issue that you at least consider the evidence presented before summarily dismissing it and not behaving so aggressively in an area where you obviously have very little knowledge.
Again, I put forth my thesis: humanity is sufficient cause for personhood. Please present a logical objection if you disagree.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
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Yes - if you know you are HIV positive, and you engage in sex (even protected sex) with somone, wihtout informing them of your status, it should be a crime. I don't know about the US, but in Canada, you can already be charged with a crime for this.
No, this is an assumed risk of sexual activity. Unless you specifically claim that pregnancy is impossible, for one reason or another, there is no crime in getting someone pregnant; you both have to deal with the consequences, one way or another.
I look forward to it
See above HIV/pregnancy answers, but remember, sex is between two people. If two people get in a carnival bungee-jumping ride, the risk is analogous; two people choose to take a risk together.Actually, lots of people die while masturbating as well (auto-erotic asphyxiation I believe is the name), but your point is noted. The difference, however, between the risk of bungee jumping and risk of sexual activity is that when you engage in sex, you have the chance to infect or impregnate someone else. This affects the life of the woman, as well as the life of the potential child that could be a product of your action. These effects can be life threatening and, therefore, should be taken more seriously than those of bungee jumping, where I doubt you could kill anyone but yourself.
Fair enough - I'm looking forward to the thread, because at the moment, the utilitarian argument is obvious, and the ethical problem of withholding information that could save someone's life is pretty pertinent, too.
You're the one who didn't like special cases, so the 'person in the sahara' is definitely a red herring - yes they have rights, and yes, they will likely die if they don't find water.
It's not remotely an analogue to normal sex, but I was interested in the answer - how would you react to the same question, in a world where access to birth control/STD information was restricted due to a moral conviction that premarital sex is somehow 'wrong'? You clearly couldn't react the same way, because if no one ever told anyone about condoms, or other porotective measures, there couldn't be a separate crime for not using them (crime one - sexual assault, crime two - knowingly exposing the victim to increased risk).
This is a twelve year old child. The father should be castrated and the girl should have the option of abortion. I am pro life , but as many unwanted and uncared for childern as there are in this world , I don't think the government should be making that kind of decision for some one who obviously doesn't want the child.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
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If only it did work like this. Just because one life is/was ruined, doesn't mean we should destroy another. How can it be the choice of the unborn's mother? It's not at atll- it's the unborn child's choice! Letting the mother of the child decide, is like letting me decide which of you guys here should die, if I were admin....or something...
They have brought up points that you haven't addressed. If someone brings a point again even if I've gone through it previously. I'd go through it again, if not. I'd show them where it's discussed.
At the early stages of devlopment a fetus does not have a brain. Even then said, it eventually will have a brain, but it's not complete nor is it actually functional. (Very much simaller to terri Schavio issuse.) You gave me some image that I can't even understand I have basically no medical background. I can go on the interweb and post a bunch of random images and say they somehow mean something. You showed me a image, just a image which could be of anything. You have no credibity beyond this image, show me where its from and who took it and the brain is actually doing stuff. I can also order weed online too, I guess thats legal right? Anyone can put up a website can call it "Bob's Late Term Abortions".
Still wating for you start discussing the Terri Schavio issuse...
At the early stages of devlopment a fetus does not have a brain. Even then said, it eventually will have a brain, but it's not complete nor is it actually functional. (Very much simaller to terri Schavio issuse.) You gave me some image that I can't even understand I have basically no medical background. I can go on the interweb and post a bunch of random images and say they somehow mean something. You showed me a image, just a image which could be of anything. You have no credibity beyond this image, show me where its from and who took it and the brain is actually doing stuff. I can also order weed online too, I guess thats legal right? Anyone can put up a website can call it "Bob's Late Term Abortions".
Still wating for you start discussing the Terri Schavio issuse...
Sounds to me like you're supposed to write something on this for school and don't have the knowledge to do it yourself. You are ridiculous. If you want to debate on the internet, you can either accept evidence presented to you or not. If not, then there is no point in debating. I can summarily dismiss everything someone says, as you are doing, but it accomplishes nothing. I have no motivation to lie to you. I don't even care what your opinion is on this issue. I'm just trying to educate you so you can stop regurgitating propaganda from the abortion industry. If you reject what I give you, fine. Don't expect me to continue.
I'm off to work to shoot lasers at pig eyes. Let me know if you're interested in an actual discussion or just being argumentative.
I'll decide what's propaganda, just as you will. I am curious to the propaganda I am spouting. Sounds like to me that you were just pre-conditioned from birth to believe that a zygote/embryo/fetus is a person from birth. Could you please high light how this relates to my schooling? If you don't care what my opinion is on the issuse, why should I care what you think? I've listened to your case plenty of times. You've said that we are unable to determine at what point life starts, therefore the second a zygote is formed it's a human life correct? Then how are we able to kill terri schavio, is that murder as well? Zygotes don't have brains, and Terri Schavio doesn't have her brain at all, it's basically spinal fluid. Is killing Terri Schavio murder?
In the mean time I am going to buy some marjiuana off the internet, after all. If it's shown on the internet, it must be legal.
Look kid, you continue to ignore any evidence I present to you, regardless of the source. You refuse to read anything on your own. There is no other mechanism for the presentation of information over the internet. You claim I'm biased when you are the one arguing against scientific fact. You can persist in your ignorance - no skin off my back. I'm done wasting time with you.Originally posted by: Tabb
I'll decide what's propaganda, just as you will. I am curious to the propaganda I am spouting. Sounds like to me that you were just pre-conditioned from birth to believe that a zygote/embryo/fetus is a person from birth. Could you please high light how this relates to my schooling? If you don't care what my opinion is on the issuse, why should I care what you think? I've listened to your case plenty of times. You've said that we are unable to determine at what point life starts, therefore the second a zygote is formed it's a human life correct? Then how are we able to kill terri schavio, is that murder as well? Zygotes don't have brains, and Terri Schavio doesn't have her brain at all, it's basically spinal fluid. Is killing Terri Schavio murder?
In the mean time I am going to buy some marjiuana off the internet, after all. If it's shown on the internet, it must be legal.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Look kid, you continue to ignore any evidence I present to you, regardless of the source. You refuse to read anything on your own. There is no other mechanism for the presentation of information over the internet. You claim I'm biased when you are the one arguing against scientific fact. You can persist in your ignorance - no skin off my back. I'm done wasting time with you.Originally posted by: Tabb
I'll decide what's propaganda, just as you will. I am curious to the propaganda I am spouting. Sounds like to me that you were just pre-conditioned from birth to believe that a zygote/embryo/fetus is a person from birth. Could you please high light how this relates to my schooling? If you don't care what my opinion is on the issuse, why should I care what you think? I've listened to your case plenty of times. You've said that we are unable to determine at what point life starts, therefore the second a zygote is formed it's a human life correct? Then how are we able to kill terri schavio, is that murder as well? Zygotes don't have brains, and Terri Schavio doesn't have her brain at all, it's basically spinal fluid. Is killing Terri Schavio murder?
In the mean time I am going to buy some marjiuana off the internet, after all. If it's shown on the internet, it must be legal.
Good, maybe you'll find someone to beileve your propaganda.
It's one thing to be ignorant. It's a completely different story to be ignorant, feign interest, then attack someone when they present you with the facts. Of course, my photographs, taken by General Electric using the latest technology, are hardly facts. :roll: You've got a lot to learn.
You had a picture that had a picture of brain and basically nothing else. I don't know what this displays and I certaintly dont't beileve this information coming from you.
It was supposed to show a BRAIN! Just tell me - why do you not believe information coming from me? What motivation do I have to lie to someone on the internet?
The same reason why we have politcal and fundamentalist christian websites?
It shows a brain and some other things I can't make out. I'd like not your own but anothers reference who is credible in this field....
I'd prefer the Terri Scahvio vs. Fetus argueement though.... You're avioding it.
It shows a brain and some other things I can't make out. I'd like not your own but anothers reference who is credible in this field....
I'd prefer the Terri Scahvio vs. Fetus argueement though.... You're avioding it.
I'm not here to argue Terri. I don't know why you keep bringing it up. That is why I'm ignoring it, not avoiding it.
If you want to argue with a medical professional, you're going to have to leave your basement and go to a hospital. All I can do is give you a photograph of a fetus' brain, which you claimed did not exist. You can argue that this is propaganda, and I can tell you that you're sticking your head in the sand. As it stands, I'm just someone who happens to work in the medical field at one of the top medical schools in the country (#2 last I checked... bloody Johns Hopkins!) and has an interest in this topic. Does this make me an authority on fetal imaging? In general no. Compared to you? Very much so. My research advisor actually developed the hardware that took the pictures I showed you when he worked for GE, so I think I'll take his word for it. You would be wise to do so as well, unless having both an M.D. and Ph.D. suffix on his name is insufficient for you to believe him. You attack my credibility without basis, refuse to accept any evidence given, regardless of the source, then claim that I have bias. Do you know what bias means? I'll go ahead and suggest that your performance in this thread demonstrates who has bias. Your repeated implication that my position is based on religion, besides being patently false, is a testament to your own complete lack of a cogent position. My religion dictates that I form my own opinions on matters which I am well informed. I am informed more on the issue of abortion than any other issue. You are not well informed on the issue of abortion. In fact, I'm not even sure you know what a fetus is anymore. You can try to play it off like I'm some ignorant fundy, but I'm pretty sure most of us here know who the real ignoramus is in this thread.
Let me give you a example...
Lets say Mr.BibleHumper says that this picture. shows that Terri Scahvio still has a brain, some of its gone. Though there is still stuff in it...
Now, I'd just use google on that nice little image and hope I find something like this...
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2...g-the-cat-scan-of-terri-schiavos-brain
That explains in much better detail and shows me what I need to know. This is what I want, not some picture. I am not a brain surgeon, I don't know what I am looking at other than it's a CRT Scan. For all I know it could be a fetus with a brain, though it'd be rather old and ready to be born. Yes, those late term abortions are illegal. Please, don't show me Bob's Late Term Abortion website. Even said, I don't see how a zygote or embryo has a brain or should be giving the same rights as I do, which is what you're agrueeing.
Lets say Mr.BibleHumper says that this picture. shows that Terri Scahvio still has a brain, some of its gone. Though there is still stuff in it...
Now, I'd just use google on that nice little image and hope I find something like this...
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2...g-the-cat-scan-of-terri-schiavos-brain
That explains in much better detail and shows me what I need to know. This is what I want, not some picture. I am not a brain surgeon, I don't know what I am looking at other than it's a CRT Scan. For all I know it could be a fetus with a brain, though it'd be rather old and ready to be born. Yes, those late term abortions are illegal. Please, don't show me Bob's Late Term Abortion website. Even said, I don't see how a zygote or embryo has a brain or should be giving the same rights as I do, which is what you're agrueeing.
Do you have to be a brain surgeon to know what a brain IS? I gave you a picture of a fetus' brain, which you specifically denied existed, thereby completely proving your ignorant comment utterly baseless and false, then you attack MY credibility. There is no interpretation, no possibility of propaganda. I gave you a FACT - a completely unedited picture from GE's own web site (Link - select Application: OB) on which they showcased their technology. Hell, the caption on the picture isn't even mine! If you can't understand this simple fact, then there is no way in hell you will have any idea what is going on when I give you legal documents regarding abortion. You are a lost cause.
Thats all I wanted in the first place. You still haven't shown me any proof that the brain is even functioning or fully developed. Even so, Zygotos and Embryo's don't have brains at some point Embryo's develop into fetuses and have a brain stem. All terri scahivo basically had was a brain stem and we killed her. Is that murder? If I am truly a lost cause, then don't bother responding. Go somewhere else and prove to the world that there is a crusade agaisnt fetuses...
Then why did you post 30 times telling me how the image wasn't credible, how I was full of propaganda, how I'm a religious zealot? The childishness of your actions is mind-boggling.
It wasn't credible until you post a source. You think if I had in all my papers without a works cited my teachers will even read it?
Do you think I photoshopped a picture of a fetus brain just for kicks? If so, you'd better lay off the smack and get a grip on reality. You're so paranoid that you think someone would actually fabricate a picture for an internet forum discussion - that's only the most disturbing thing I've heard in my entire life.
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