Poll: Oblivion is 11 Years Old

[Smoblikat]

I heard a lot about playing a game as original designed and intended. The truth about software development in general is that the released product may not be how the designer originally intended it to be. Game designers usually have bigger ambition at the beginning, then has to make compromises due to budget and deadline constrain. The designers probably don't mind more armors and weapons in the game, better graphic details, better NPC AI, etc., but they are always limited by time and budget, and also limited by the computer power at that time.

Therefore I don't think modding a game breaks how it was intended to play, as long as the mods stick to the lore and does not drastically alter gameplay. The main problem with modding Bethesda games is that you may end up spending more time modding than actually playing the game.

The KOTOR series is a great example of a game not being what the devs originally intended it to be, in that case, modding it actually unlocks all the hidden/locked out content and brings the game closer to what the creators considered complete.

As far as spending more time modding a TES game than playing it........ya........that happens. I cant tell you how many times ive got morrowind absolutely perfectly modded just the way I want to, and im either so sick of dealing with it that I just play somthing else, or I dont want to play it too many times because it will eventually destabilize and ill have to redo everything

 

[zinfamous]

Morrowind is clearly the best, if you say you just played it a year ago, that means there has been 15+ years of innovation between its creation and the time you played it. I played it when it first came out, so I got used to how the UI and mechanics work back when they were truly revolutionary, now that I know the quirks of the game, I can just sit back and enjoy it. It really has the most going on of all the TES games, like comparing GTA:SA to somthing like GTA:III.

Oblivion is the one I put the most hours into, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hours. It struck a nice balance of being a dummed down morrowind and being visually pleasing. The quests were fun, the world was fun, a decent amount of armor/weapons, but the magic kinda sucked.

Skyrim was cool the first time I played it, but quickly became irrelevant after that. Ive still put hundreds of hours into it, but if oblivion can be considered a dummed down morrowind, skyrim is a comatose oblivion. You get to pick 1 of 7 weapons and 1 of 7 armors and youre on your way. The game is practically unplayable without mods, especially the UI. The story was extremely forced and boring compared to the previous 2 games, and only 1 of the DLC's was decent. The graphics were nice though, but the game itself just felt really limited.

I played Morrowind prior to Oblivion being released, but it was already oldish at the time...3 year? 4? I don't know, but I disliked it for the same reasons in the OP: terrible UI, no fast travel options, no quest markers...all of this added to massive quest fatigue and I just gave up after about 15 hours when I noticed my list of things to do was multiplying at an alarming rate, and I had no idea how to address any of it....and then there was the rabbit hole of "I think I might want to make some potions..." and that did it for me.

I get the complaints of hand-holding in games, and I respect that many gamers will cling to that kind of nostalgic tediousness in game design, but I simply can't deal with that crap anymore. I just don't have that time and let's face it: neither do you. I've felt this when going back to games that I used to love and realized they were unplayable today for similar reasons. Because of Morrowind, I completely skipped Oblivion and eventually did pick up Skyrim on an early sale, and I came to love it (atmosphere primarily, straightforward play, and I finally got that the open world was relatively unrestrained and that you didn't have to do every little quest. There was a clearer understanding of your primary quest, the major story quests (factions), and the junk quests). I then tried to play Oblivion some year or two after Skyrim, and I couldn't get into it, either. the crafting disciplines were a bit more tedious like in Morrowind, and then the tedium of the basic mechanics: constant, punishing fatigue. Can't kill a hermit crab because it takes me 18 stamina-draining swings to actually score a hit, but then I fall to the ground, dead of cardiac arrest while hermit crab starts pinching my face off....eff that noise.

 

[zinfamous]

the first stalker was one of the greatest games made. The other 2 were OK but not on the level.

OH man, I really loved the ~4 hours I put into the first Stalker game (it was just too damn hard for me--which is fine and I absolutely love that, I just really lost the patience...plus I think I installed some popular aspect ratio/graphic update patch that never quite worked, so I gave up). Next to Skyrim, Stalker is the best atmospheric, immersive experience imo. And it's quite realistic and punishing with its survival mechanics and the general combat difficulty.

 

[bystander36]

I get the complaints of hand-holding in games, and I respect that many gamers will cling to that kind of nostalgic tediousness in game design, but I simply can't deal with that crap anymore. I just don't have that time and let's face it: neither do you. I've felt this when going back to games that I used to love and realized they were unplayable today for similar reasons.

I get the fatigue issue, and some of the basic UI and mechanics of those older games, but they brought a lot of great things too. Getting athleticism up helped a lot though (I created a script that I'd just run my early characters through to increase those a few points to make it more enjoyable).

But I do very much like a game which does not put a damn arrow and checkmark for every location you have to go, and everything you need to do in detail. Those things are enjoyable to figure out. With the way quests are run today, it feels more like you are participating in a scripted movie, rather than participating in an adventure.

 

[BFG10K]

I would say it's best to play through once completely unmodded for all Bethesda games with one exception: removal of leveled enemies in Oblivion. I can't explain how infuriating it was to one-shot a rat at level 1 with a wooden bow, then watch a mudcrab take four swipes of my Daedric Warhammer at level 36.

This problem is easily resolved by moving the game difficulty slider leftwards - no need for mods.

I heard a lot about playing a game as original designed and intended. The truth about software development in general is that the released product may not be how the designer originally intended it to be. Game designers usually have bigger ambition at the beginning, then has to make compromises due to budget and deadline constrain. The designers probably don't mind more armors and weapons in the game, better graphic details, better NPC AI, etc., but they are always limited by time and budget, and also limited by the computer power at that time.

Therefore I don't think modding a game breaks how it was intended to play, as long as the mods stick to the lore and does not drastically alter gameplay. The main problem with modding Bethesda games is that you may end up spending more time modding than actually playing the game.

If I don't like the stock game then I simply won't play it. Bug fixes are fine but I've never had major issues with Gamebryo/Bethesda games, so I've no reason to apply the unofficial fixes.

I've seen many others install dozens of mods and then wonder why the game starts malfunctioning. Bethesda isn't bug free, but all those random mods causing infinite interactions with each other definitely produce issues that aren't in vanilla.

 

[zinfamous]

I get the fatigue issue, and some of the basic UI and mechanics of those older games, but they brought a lot of great things too. Getting athleticism up helped a lot though (I created a script that I'd just run my early characters through to increase those a few points to make it more enjoyable).

But I do very much like a game which does not put a damn arrow and checkmark for every location you have to go, and everything you need to do in detail. Those things are enjoyable to figure out. With the way quests are run today, it feels more like you are participating in a scripted movie, rather than participating in an adventure.

I agree with all of this. I think for me, the problem with that design in Morrowind is that the world is actually way too big and there are just way too many quests to not be fatigued by it. It's a weird criticism, but I think it's apt.

 

[BFG10K]

I get the complaints of hand-holding in games, and I respect that many gamers will cling to that kind of nostalgic tediousness in game design, but I simply can't deal with that crap anymore. I just don't have that time and let's face it: neither do you. I've felt this when going back to games that I used to love and realized they were unplayable today for similar reasons.

I think what it boils down to is streamlining vs dumbing down. Dumbing down simply trivializes gameplay for no good reason. But streamlining changes the stupid decisions of yesteryear.

Every game genre needs minimum gameplay standards. For open world games, they need fast travel and quest markers. Morrowind fails, which makes it unplayable.

Games that meet the standards can be enjoyed no matter how old. For instance I played Heretic (1994) for the first time a few years ago, and I absolutely loved it. This proves nostalgia isn't needed for old games.

 

[Stg-Flame]

This problem is easily resolved by moving the game difficulty slider leftwards - no need for mods.

Why would I want to turn the difficulty down as I level up? Coming from Morrowind, this is 100% counter-productive to leveling up at all. What's the point in gaining levels and using stronger gear if you're forced to turn the difficulty down just so it feels like you've actually gotten stronger? With Morrowind, you could easily come back with glass gear and start enacting revenge on those damn Balmora guards who picked on me for trying to steal in their town, but in Oblivion, you could come back to the starting area decked out in full Daedric gear only to be sniped by a bandit using glass arrows and a Dwarven Bow.

 

[bystander36]

Why would I want to turn the difficulty down as I level up? Coming from Morrowind, this is 100% counter-productive to leveling up at all. What's the point in gaining levels and using stronger gear if you're forced to turn the difficulty down just so it feels like you've actually gotten stronger? With Morrowind, you could easily come back with glass gear and start enacting revenge on those damn Balmora guards who picked on me for trying to steal in their town, but in Oblivion, you could come back to the starting area decked out in full Daedric gear only to be sniped by a bandit using glass arrows and a Dwarven Bow.

I don't think that was what he suggested. In Elder Scrolls, the games usually got easier as you leveled up due to gear, and generally having your character build more polished by then.

But I think he's referring to builds which are inherently weak. Rather than always building the super strong, well rounded characters of doom, make a more interesting character. I remember playing the game as a thief archer and avoided any magic, after playing several other much stronger builds. Turning the slider down made the character very playable, and the general experience was better than any uber build I had made prior. I didn't worry about making the perfect design choices, and focused on playing through the game with a play style in mind. It was the most fun I've had in a long time.

 

[Stg-Flame]

I don't think that was what he suggested. In Elder Scrolls, the games usually got easier as you leveled up due to gear, and generally having your character build more polished by then.

But I think he's referring to builds which are inherently weak. Rather than always building the super strong, well rounded characters of doom, make a more interesting character. I remember playing the game as a thief archer and avoided any magic, after playing several other much stronger builds. Turning the slider down made the character very playable, and the general experience was better than any uber build I had made prior. I didn't worry about making the perfect design choices, and focused on playing through the game with a play style in mind. It was the most fun I've had in a long time.

No, that's exactly what he suggested. Two-handed Daedric Warhammer on a pure Orc Warrior should not take four swipes to kill a Mudcrab outside the Imperial City and bandits shouldn't be able to put up a fight against me either. He suggested that I work around the leveled enemies by turning the difficulty down which is just asinine.

 

[bystander36]

No, that's exactly what he suggested. Two-handed Daedric Warhammer on a pure Orc Warrior should not take four swipes to kill a Mudcrab outside the Imperial City and bandits shouldn't be able to put up a fight against me either. He suggested that I work around the leveled enemies by turning the difficulty down which is just asinine.

I don't see the problem with it. The game is completely open to allow any imaginable build. With that type of system, balancing is nearly impossible. That difficulty slider was made to accommodate every possible scenario. And so what if it takes 4 swipes anyway? Take 4 swipes and move on.

 

[BFG10K]

Why would I want to turn the difficulty down as I level up?

I personally turned it down when I first installed the game, and I've left it since.

Coming from Morrowind, this is 100% counter-productive to leveling up at all. What's the point in gaining levels and using stronger gear if you're forced to turn the difficulty down just so it feels like you've actually gotten stronger? With Morrowind, you could easily come back with glass gear and start enacting revenge on those damn Balmora guards who picked on me for trying to steal in their town, but in Oblivion, you could come back to the starting area decked out in full Daedric gear only to be sniped by a bandit using glass arrows and a Dwarven Bow.

I never said Oblivion's auto-leveling is a good thing, I just said the difficulty slider can solve it without needing to install mods.

For the record I think Borderlands does it the best. All zones have fixed levels and it's immediately obvious if you shouldn't be there because the enemies have visible level numbers above their heads. Also the side-quests clearly show their difficulty relative to your character level, so you don't waste your time trying them until you're strong enough.

No, that's exactly what he suggested. Two-handed Daedric Warhammer on a pure Orc Warrior should not take four swipes to kill a Mudcrab outside the Imperial City and bandits shouldn't be able to put up a fight against me either. He suggested that I work around the leveled enemies by turning the difficulty down which is just asinine.

It's just a game slider. Nobody's going to question your manhood if you adjust it.

 

[BFG10K]

Turning the slider down made the character very playable, and the general experience was better than any uber build I had made prior. I didn't worry about making the perfect design choices, and focused on playing through the game with a play style in mind. It was the most fun I've had in a long time.

I agree completely. You can either play the game with the stock difficulty and obsess over perfect character builds and the associated constant grind to attain 5/5/5 : 5/5/1, or you can reduce the slider and play the game exactly the way you want. The latter is vastly more fun.

 

[Stg-Flame]

I guess I'm in the minority here. It seems pointless to play a game on a certain difficulty only to cheese the game by turning the difficulty down to Very Easy just so your character feels the way he should. I never said anything about perfect builds and in Morrowind, even a mediocre Jack-of-all-Trades build could easily one-shot enemies if you were a high level with decent gear but not in Oblivion. I see using the slider the same as using console commands to kill enemies. If Bethesda didn't implement leveled enemies, this wouldn't be a problem and nobody would feel the need to use the slider just to get that "OP".

Besides, even if you spec your character as a pure mage and then switch to a Daedric Warhammer, you should still be able to one-shot a damn crab. Saying that particular mechanic is perfectly fine is absolutely asinine.

 

[bystander36]

I guess I'm in the minority here. It seems pointless to play a game on a certain difficulty only to cheese the game by turning the difficulty down to Very Easy just so your character feels the way he should. I never said anything about perfect builds and in Morrowind, even a mediocre Jack-of-all-Trades build could easily one-shot enemies if you were a high level with decent gear but not in Oblivion. I see using the slider the same as using console commands to kill enemies. If Bethesda didn't implement leveled enemies, this wouldn't be a problem and nobody would feel the need to use the slider just to get that "OP".

Besides, even if you spec your character as a pure mage and then switch to a Daedric Warhammer, you should still be able to one-shot a damn crab. Saying that particular mechanic is perfectly fine is absolutely asinine.

Elder Scroll games are sandbox games. They are not your typical RPG's. What this means is that you are responsible for your adventure. You can do as much or as little of the quests as you like and you can mostly do them in any order you feel like, although the main quest usually requires a certain level of advancement to finish.

The problem with such games is continuing to give the an appropriate challenge. If the player decides to grind levels out, he's going to find the game gets too easy and boring. If he doesn't level up a lot, he'll find it too difficult. This is the reason for leveling mobs. No matter how high or low of a level you go to, you can find a challenge. But people were annoyed at everything leveling, and wanted a few uber mobs, and easy mobs, so in Skyrim, they did have a few monsters which did not level (Giants, and some rodents, though some mudcrabs did level with you).

The next problem with a game with no restrictions on how you play, with the possibility of making super gear, and builds which were far and away better or weaker than others, is how do you balance the game play? You can't simply have the typical easy, medium and hard difficulties, because depending on how you chose to make your character, possibly for role playing, they wouldn't play at all the same. For example, archery in Oblivion and Morrowind was far weaker than melee or magic. They added the slider so you could choose any build you like, and find a difficulty that worked by adjusting the slider. You just have to realize that the difficulty level is vastly different between builds, and how you chose to play.

Simply put, auto-leveling and the difficulty slider are a result of it being a sandbox game. Many other sandbox games have added the same or similar mechanics since then. The only other option would be to take away the freedom of how you play, but then it would not be such an open ended sandbox game that it is.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I don't see the problem with it. The game is completely open to allow any imaginable build. With that type of system, balancing is nearly impossible. That difficulty slider was made to accommodate every possible scenario. And so what if it takes 4 swipes anyway? Take 4 swipes and move on.

The problem with such games is continuing to give the an appropriate challenge. If the player decides to grind levels out, he's going to find the game gets too easy and boring. If he doesn't level up a lot, he'll find it too difficult. This is the reason for leveling mobs. No matter how high or low of a level you go to, you can find a challenge. But people were annoyed at everything leveling, and wanted a few uber mobs, and easy mobs, so in Skyrim, they did have a few monsters which did not level (Giants, and some rodents, though some mudcrabs did level with you).

You seem to be missing something he's stating. When you run across a guard at level 1-5, probably in some crappy iron/leather gear and a silly sword, the guards generally can put you down. You can tell they're tougher than you, but not rip-your-head-off tougher. Hell, you can probably just run from them if you need to. Bandits generally get put down with ease, unless it's a leader, as would be expected. Mudcrabs die in a whack or two, etc.

Fast forward to level 50, you've got maxed out 2h weapons, 80-odd heavy armor skill, and are generally a walking, bristling mass of daedric. 50lb hammer in-hand, you walk up to a mudcrab because it looked at you funny. It absorbs more damage than about 300 of those mudcrabs at level 1-5. After a strenuous fight, it finally succumbs, you using a solid 30% of your stamina to do so. You meander into town to take your revenge on those jerks that pushed you around as a level 1, only to find that they are actually stronger in comparison to their 'versions' you fought at level 1-5. They have 20x the health, do 10x the damage, and if you can take them, it's a protracted fight that takes >2m per npc, just constantly wailing away at them. This isn't about 'customizing your build' or whatever, it's just about playing a character in a logical fashion. You *can* gimp it in the built-in leveling system by selecting your primary/secondary skills being non-combat, but that makes the game even easier, because you stay at level 1 or whatever, in bristling daedric, and you one-shot the last boss even with difficulty cranked.

This isn't a 'challenge', it's not a 'challenge' for mudcrabs or a pack of some stupid wolves that won't leave you alone to take repeated blows from a daedric warhammer, it's just annoying.

The mechanics in the base game, specifically of Oblivion, are just straight up broken. Just playing the game in an intuitive way will ruin the experience.

 

[Ancalagon44]

Elder Scroll games are sandbox games. They are not your typical RPG's. What this means is that you are responsible for your adventure. You can do as much or as little of the quests as you like and you can mostly do them in any order you feel like, although the main quest usually requires a certain level of advancement to finish.

The problem with such games is continuing to give the an appropriate challenge. If the player decides to grind levels out, he's going to find the game gets too easy and boring. If he doesn't level up a lot, he'll find it too difficult. This is the reason for leveling mobs. No matter how high or low of a level you go to, you can find a challenge. But people were annoyed at everything leveling, and wanted a few uber mobs, and easy mobs, so in Skyrim, they did have a few monsters which did not level (Giants, and some rodents, though some mudcrabs did level with you).

The next problem with a game with no restrictions on how you play, with the possibility of making super gear, and builds which were far and away better or weaker than others, is how do you balance the game play? You can't simply have the typical easy, medium and hard difficulties, because depending on how you chose to make your character, possibly for role playing, they wouldn't play at all the same. For example, archery in Oblivion and Morrowind was far weaker than melee or magic. They added the slider so you could choose any build you like, and find a difficulty that worked by adjusting the slider. You just have to realize that the difficulty level is vastly different between builds, and how you chose to play.

Simply put, auto-leveling and the difficulty slider are a result of it being a sandbox game. Many other sandbox games have added the same or similar mechanics since then. The only other option would be to take away the freedom of how you play, but then it would not be such an open ended sandbox game that it is.

I would personally say that sandbox and auto levelling are contradictory and do not belong in the same game.

The reason is, if I want to level grind and become powerful, why not let me? Let me ruin my own game if I want. If I want to go hitting rats when I am level 50 so that I can see them explode into gibs, why not let me? If I want to tackle quests in an order that results in one of them being too easy, why not let me?

Auto levelling means I can choose which area to go to but not the challenge of the game. The challenge of the game is always fixed - never too hard or too easy. To me, removing this choice from the player is limiting the freedom offered by a sandbox game.

Consider Baldurs Gate 2. In Chapter 2 of Baldurs Gate 2, the player has the freedom to tackle any of the stronghold quests in any order they like. Or even optional quests like Kangaxx the Demi Lich. If a Level 8 player fresh from Irenicus's dungeon tries to take on a lich, he will get his ass handed to him, over and over again. The game will not auto level the lich down so that a level 8 player can take him down - the player just needs to get the hint that this is a bad idea.

And that is good game design - difficult fights like that are optional and only experienced players even know about them. Inexperienced players will encounter them, reload a few times, and then realize the fight is not winnable and is not required for the current quest. Same thing with the two Dragons in Shadows of Amn - they are both optional to fight (in fact, come to think of it, every single dragon in Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn is optional to fight).

If the players wants to do the quests in a different order, he might find that he can stomp orcs easily. So what? He chose to play the game that way.

Similarly, in Fallout: New Vegas, I was close to the endgame, so I was wrapping up loose ends. Completing quests, finding skill books etc. I came across a some raiders. Completely wiped them out, it was hilarious. It was no challenge but I enjoyed it because it showed how far I had come.

 

[bystander36]

You seem to be missing something he's stating. When you run across a guard at level 1-5, probably in some crappy iron/leather gear and a silly sword, the guards generally can put you down. You can tell they're tougher than you, but not rip-your-head-off tougher. Hell, you can probably just run from them if you need to. Bandits generally get put down with ease, unless it's a leader, as would be expected. Mudcrabs die in a whack or two, etc.

Fast forward to level 50, you've got maxed out 2h weapons, 80-odd heavy armor skill, and are generally a walking, bristling mass of daedric. 50lb hammer in-hand, you walk up to a mudcrab because it looked at you funny. It absorbs more damage than about 300 of those mudcrabs at level 1-5. After a strenuous fight, it finally succumbs, you using a solid 30% of your stamina to do so. You meander into town to take your revenge on those jerks that pushed you around as a level 1, only to find that they are actually stronger in comparison to their 'versions' you fought at level 1-5. They have 20x the health, do 10x the damage, and if you can take them, it's a protracted fight that takes >2m per npc, just constantly wailing away at them. This isn't about 'customizing your build' or whatever, it's just about playing a character in a logical fashion. You *can* gimp it in the built-in leveling system by selecting your primary/secondary skills being non-combat, but that makes the game even easier, because you stay at level 1 or whatever, in bristling daedric, and you one-shot the last boss even with difficulty cranked.

This isn't a 'challenge', it's not a 'challenge' for mudcrabs or a pack of some stupid wolves that won't leave you alone to take repeated blows from a daedric warhammer, it's just annoying.

The mechanics in the base game, specifically of Oblivion, are just straight up broken. Just playing the game in an intuitive way will ruin the experience.

That's what that slider is for. You probably have it all the way to the right, which gives them maximum HP and damage. The slider just has to be adjusted so it isn't so difficult. The slider is not necessarily designed to be fixed to the right. That's for those who want a punishing experience. Unfortunately, at the time and today, a lot of people just feel like their ego is crushed if they aren't playing at max difficulty.

 

[bystander36]

I would personally say that sandbox and auto levelling are contradictory and do not belong in the same game.

The reason is, if I want to level grind and become powerful, why not let me? Let me ruin my own game if I want. If I want to go hitting rats when I am level 50 so that I can see them explode into gibs, why not let me? If I want to tackle quests in an order that results in one of them being too easy, why not let me?

Auto levelling means I can choose which area to go to but not the challenge of the game. The challenge of the game is always fixed - never too hard or too easy. To me, removing this choice from the player is limiting the freedom offered by a sandbox game.

Consider Baldurs Gate 2. In Chapter 2 of Baldurs Gate 2, the player has the freedom to tackle any of the stronghold quests in any order they like. Or even optional quests like Kangaxx the Demi Lich. If a Level 8 player fresh from Irenicus's dungeon tries to take on a lich, he will get his ass handed to him, over and over again. The game will not auto level the lich down so that a level 8 player can take him down - the player just needs to get the hint that this is a bad idea.

And that is good game design - difficult fights like that are optional and only experienced players even know about them. Inexperienced players will encounter them, reload a few times, and then realize the fight is not winnable and is not required for the current quest. Same thing with the two Dragons in Shadows of Amn - they are both optional to fight (in fact, come to think of it, every single dragon in Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn is optional to fight).

If the players wants to do the quests in a different order, he might find that he can stomp orcs easily. So what? He chose to play the game that way.

Similarly, in Fallout: New Vegas, I was close to the endgame, so I was wrapping up loose ends. Completing quests, finding skill books etc. I came across a some raiders. Completely wiped them out, it was hilarious. It was no challenge but I enjoyed it because it showed how far I had come.

The problem here, is you will be forced to play the game in a particular order, you cannot level up high, and have a challenge, and you cannot play a quick game with a low level character. You are locked into having level and build requirements to hit particular milestones, and like you said, you can ruin your experience by leveling up high if you wanted to have a challenge at high level.

Obviously, not everyone liked this approach, but it does solve the issue they wanted to solve, and that was to always give the player a challenge no matter how they play, and what areas they decided to fight in first.

Skyrim did make a bit of a compromise. While much of the game still autolevels, they did leave a few mobs which don't. Rodents are weak, and giants are fixed at a pretty high level (though they become weak to you if you level up high).

If you want your character to feel super strong, the difficulty slider is needed to be adjusted. I know it's not what you are accustomed too, but it is what was intended and it worked too. The slider was not meant to be stuck to the far right. It was just allowed to, so you could choose a punishing game difficulty if you wanted.

There was another compromise that Skyrim added, and I think Oblivion might have too, to some degree, and that was to not make the max difficult as difficult as it was in Morrowind. This is something I know I've learned in the past decade, a lot of people feel a need to play games at max difficulty, just as many others feel a need to play at max detail level (Crysis taught us that). If they can't, they feel as if something is wrong with the game, as if the game was meant to be played maxed out.

 

[Stg-Flame]

That's what that slider is for. You probably have it all the way to the right, which gives them maximum HP and damage. The slider just has to be adjusted so it isn't so difficult. The slider is not necessarily designed to be fixed to the right. That's for those who want a punishing experience. Unfortunately, at the time and today, a lot of people just feel like their ego is crushed if they aren't playing at max difficulty.

I find it hard to believe you're not simply trolling at this point. The difficulty slider isn't meant to be slowly turned down to Very Easy just so you actually can progress as you normally would in any RPG on the market. Think of how things would have turned out if you took a generic Final Fantasy RPG and made every single enemy level with you throughout the entire game. There would be zero point in leveling up because even though you gain new skills/spells, weapons, equipment, and generally stronger all around through leveling, it doesn't mean squat when the same enemy at the start of the game is still taking several rounds just to kill.

Leveled enemies destroys the very basic concept of leveling up and getting stronger because with leveled enemies, you will never be stronger than anything you're going to face in the game. In fact, leaving the difficulty right where it's at will still give you the same result that myself and Osiris have lined out. The only time I ever moved the difficulty slider to the right was after I started using mods to remove the leveled enemy scaling. All of my other runs through the game I left it in the default position.

 

[bystander36]

I find it hard to believe you're not simply trolling at this point. The difficulty slider isn't meant to be slowly turned down to Very Easy just so you actually can progress as you normally would in any RPG on the market. Think of how things would have turned out if you took a generic Final Fantasy RPG and made every single enemy level with you throughout the entire game. There would be zero point in leveling up because even though you gain new skills/spells, weapons, equipment, and generally stronger all around through leveling, it doesn't mean squat when the same enemy at the start of the game is still taking several rounds just to kill.

Leveled enemies destroys the very basic concept of leveling up and getting stronger because with leveled enemies, you will never be stronger than anything you're going to face in the game. In fact, leaving the difficulty right where it's at will still give you the same result that myself and Osiris have lined out. The only time I ever moved the difficulty slider to the right was after I started using mods to remove the leveled enemy scaling. All of my other runs through the game I left it in the default position.

I could say the same about you. Since when have games been easier as you leveled? While some do, most are more difficult, because you go into more difficult areas. I've been playing Divinity Original Sin 2. The game got progressively harder the entire game, assuming you stayed on track and followed the quests. The same goes for almost any RPG. The difference between the Elder Scrolls games and others, is you are not lead down linear order of quests. You can choose which ones you face at what level.

It's the difference between a sandbox game, and a traditional RPG. The traditional RPG continues to get more difficult, also forcing you to fight the same level of mobs as you, the difference is that you are given them in a particular order, where as a sandbox game lets you do it in any order.

And if you don't get so hung up on the difficulty slider, and start with it lower to begin with, you may find things do not get that much more difficult as you level. Start at a lower difficulty, and just play the game, rather than starting at a high difficulty which doesn't allow you to progress to more challenges. Ever notice that most RPG's start easy, and get harder as you go, why not apply the same principle to Morrowind and Oblivion?

 

[bystander36]

I would suggest something, I kind of already mentioned before. It is rather pointless to grind out levels in an attempt to make the fights easier, as it is simply work that doesn't make things easier. It's not like traditional RPG's allow you to grind levels, you can only fight a limited number of fights, which tend to have you fight them all at the same level as you. The dev's were rather smart. They recognized that in any RPG, you only fight mobs around your level, and realized they could make an open ended game, with no rules, and continue to give that experience by having mobs level up at similar levels as you (they aren't exactly your level, but + or - a few levels near yours. I'm not sure you noticed that).

They did have one problem with the system, illusion spells had a level cap, and stopped working once you past level 50, if I recall correctly.

 

[Stg-Flame]

Since when have games been easier as you leveled?

Pretty much every game that features leveling gets easier the more you level. That's why grinding levels is beneficial in 99% of all RPGs on the market. There's some exceptions like Vandal Hearts where enemies will level up with Ash so it's actually beneficial to keep him a low level if you want to steamroll the game, but for the vast majority of games out there, the more you level, the stronger you become. That's gaming 101 right there.

Also, I can't recall many RPGs that get harder as you progress in the story. In fact, assuming you don't just bee-line the main story, most RPGs get easier as you progress until you reach a boss fight, then it's a little rough, then afterwards it's back to the easy stuff again. Hell, even Demon's/Dark Souls get easier the more you level up.

 

[bystander36]

Pretty much every game that features leveling gets easier the more you level. That's why grinding levels is beneficial in 99% of all RPGs on the market. There's some exceptions like Vandal Hearts where enemies will level up with Ash so it's actually beneficial to keep him a low level if you want to steamroll the game, but for the vast majority of games out there, the more you level, the stronger you become. That's gaming 101 right there.

Also, I can't recall many RPGs that get harder as you progress in the story. In fact, assuming you don't just bee-line the main story, most RPGs get easier as you progress until you reach a boss fight, then it's a little rough, then afterwards it's back to the easy stuff again. Hell, even Demon's/Dark Souls get easier the more you level up.

We are playing different types of RPG's.

ARPG's, like Diablo and similar games let you grind. They let you level up and make things easier, but even Diablo 3, at the highest level, had you hit a wall until you got better gear to be capable of leveling up.

Most traditional RPG's, didn't allow you to grind. When the fight was over, the mobs were gone (think Baldur's Gate). You never could face anything except mobs your level for the most part, as you were funneled to specific areas, because if you did not, you faced fights that were too difficult. While the first few levels were often difficult, once you got to level 4ish, the level curve generally was a smooth gradual curve to more difficulty, with some fights that were easy, and a few that were much harder than anything you faced prior.

Anyway, I do believe this may also be another issue all together. Something that you have to work with when it comes to the Elder Scrolls. Something I forgot about until now, and realized you probably faced. In the Elder Scrolls, you level based on skill points you've earned, not based on your ability to fight. It's real easy to level up on non combat skills, end up 5-10 levels higher than you were, but with almost the same offensive combat skill level, and unable to progress.

It's very important, especially early on, to focus heavily on improving your combat skills, so you can remain strong. If you want to game the system (This works in Morrowind, and I think Oblivion), you can take advantage of the fact that you only increase in levels when you increase your primary and 2ndary skills by choosing only your primary combat skills and a bunch of skills you have no intentions of using or accidentally using. Now you can level up and be much stronger than the mobs around you as you level up slowly, yet have very high combat skills. You can still increase those skills you did not choose, and they will no longer level you up. They'll just start a few points lower.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Patrick Stewart is the Emperor. That's all.