Poll: Oblivion is 11 Years Old

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Your favorite?

  • Morrowind

    Votes: 19 28.8%
  • Oblivion

    Votes: 20 30.3%
  • Skyrim

    Votes: 22 33.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 7.6%

  • Total voters
    66

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
I finished up Tribunal and generally liked it. Two expansive dungeons plus a Dwemer ruin with a new tile scheme. My main gripe is that the end clockwork area felt rushed and turned out to be a poor man’s “Dwemer” area. They could’ve done a lot more with it, like a massive cavern with a towering clockwork spire which you climbed to the top.

I read up about the main Bloodmoon quest and watched a few quest playthroughs, and have decided I have no interest in playing it. So that wraps up Morrowind for me.



Thats my fav questline in morrowind, I really think youre missing out on a good bit of the game. Is it the long walking distances that turn you off? Theres a couple noteworthy things you get once you complete the questline:

You get your very own personal house, which IIRC is the only oppurtunity in the game for you to do so, and the castle you need to go to has the only existing daedric....left? pauldron in the whole game, it was never included pre GOTY.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
The games are currently on sale on Steam.

Is it the long walking distances that turn you off?
It's the quest content. I'm interested in dungeon crawling, not traveling all over the map to talk to people.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
The games are currently on sale on Steam.


It's the quest content. I'm interested in dungeon crawling, not traveling all over the map to talk to people.
The best dungeon crawl like experience in the game is the Thief quest. While you aren't exactly fighting your way through, it's the only time you spend any decent amount of time working your way through a dungeon. Given how poor the combat is in these games, it should be the most interesting experience in the game. You should at least do it once, if nothing else.
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
The games are currently on sale on Steam.


It's the quest content. I'm interested in dungeon crawling, not traveling all over the map to talk to people.

Ah, thats one of the reasons I liked it so much, it was one of the only diplomatic questlines in the whole series I think.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
I decided to replay Morrowind and I'm really enjoying it the second time around. I think the stock retro graphics look great and I like wandering the countryside:

Morrowind.jpg
For me the key to this game is dungeon-crawling, not quests. I don't bother with any side-quests and just heavily explore nearby dungeons as I advance the main quest. This almost completely nullifies the journal and fast travel issues because I go where it suits me, not where the game sends me.

I also only use skill trainers for non-level-up skills in order to not unbalance the leveling system. My 9 levels so far have been earned by solid hard work so it's quite rewarding despite taking a lot longer.

I still think Oblivion and Skyrim are better, but Morrowind may be one of my new favorite games.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Are you adding any graphics updates for Morrowind?

I played it 13+ years ago and the graphics were amazing at the time, I think I even upgraded my CPU and GPU since when I started it was barely playable on the old system.

I never finished it, I think I managed to break the main quest by antagonizing the people I needed to work with to progress it. Back then I hadn't realized that Bethesda quest scripting often requires a console command or two to get past their bugs.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
Are you adding any graphics updates for Morrowind?
No, just the FPS optimizer program for longer draw distances, FOV, and UI scaling.

It's amazing the game + expansions is just 1 GB and has potentially hundreds of hours of gameplay, an expansive world, and dozens and dozens of dungeons. Today we have 100 GB games that are nothing more than 3 hour interactive cut-scenes on rails.
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,310
2,766
126
I see skyrim is winning.

I think oblivion had a pretty bad thing when it came to oblivion gates - the radiant quests of the time. They were ugly and boring. And i didnt like the long intro scene at all, i believe it is completely unnecessary.
I would also criticize that you can do (fairly easily) all 4 guild quests, it's just weird that the warrior guildleader is also the mage guildleader and so on.

But oblivion is the only game i've ever launched just to play. Not to accomplish a goal, build a fort, kill a boss, grind xp or beat a level. Just to walk on the grass. To get lost in a forest.

Oblivion gives me much more of a "real" feeling that skyrim does.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
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I finished up the main quest at level 21. I might play around with some side-quests. I briefly ran around Solstheim and used some bears for archery practice.

I think it would've been nice to allow a lengthy conversation with the heart like with Dagoth Ur. Imagine the interesting lore you could get.

As an aside, I find most magic items useless in the Elder Scrolls games (especially quest rewards) and instead prefer plain gear using high-level materials (e.g. Glass). But this one is totally awesome:

Ring.jpg
It's the perfect spelunking/dungeon crawling ring. You don't need torches anymore, and stamina drain is no longer a factor. If only the ring was available much earlier.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,201
214
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I finished up the main quest at level 21. I might play around with some side-quests. I briefly ran around Solstheim and used some bears for archery practice.

I think it would've been nice to allow a lengthy conversation with the heart like with Dagoth Ur. Imagine the interesting lore you could get.

As an aside, I find most magic items useless in the Elder Scrolls games (especially quest rewards) and instead prefer plain gear using high-level materials (e.g. Glass). But this one is totally awesome:

Ring.jpg
It's the perfect spelunking/dungeon crawling ring. You don't need torches anymore, and stamina drain is no longer a factor. If only the ring was available much earlier.

I still remember struggling with finding torches in Morrowind and Oblivion. At least at first. I found it absolutely annoying to equip / unequip for fights (in the dark, while unequipped for said fight when both hands are needed) constantly. In Oblivion I remember avoiding dungeons in general and just progressing my character as much as I could on the surface / outdoors and in 'clearer' cities. Now, the major problem, however, was my lack of interest (and curiosity) in playing any other type of characters other than full on in-your-face melee classes and builds.

I generally needed both hands (in Morrowind and Oblivion) since 70% of the time I would make myself a two-handed berserker-styled character, and "having to" bring torches with me in dungeons, ruins, forts, etc... it was annoying at best. Sure, when not fighting, exploring and looting, or just walking around at night outdoors... it served its purpose. But more often than not, new Cells ahead loaded, new critters spawned, and you'd have that sudden Cliff Racer, or Wolf, or whatever coming at you and... once more, have to unequip, etc.

It took me until Skyrim (and only relatively recently, because I still wasn't curious enough back when the game had just been released) before I found a much better way around that 'problem'. About two years ago I played my first real long-lasting playthrough of the game (after installing a bunch of mods) and decided to try something new. I went full on Mage this time. The only prior 'experiment' I had made with builds outside of melee dates back to early Oblivion days when I tried an "Archer", it failed (hated it, hated the aiming, the engine for projectile and physics for arrows was just way too archaic; and I absolutely hated the auto-dodging from enemy A.I. and their auto-aiming against me). So, something as simple as 'now being a Mage' changed the dynamics of the game and my own approach to things. Instead of "looking around" for weapons and heavy armor, I looked around (from merchants, NPCs, etc) for SPELLS, and Scrolls, instead.

Lo and behold, one of the first Spell Tome I got my hands on was none other than a Novice level spell called Candlelight. It's available from that mage guy in the castle of Whiterun (Dragonsreach if I recall correctly), he sells that tome. It turns out that Candlelight is better in every possible way. It's an 'orb' hovering above your head, lighting up the immediate area around you. It lasts about a minute by default, and can be increased in duration with perks I think (and maybe potions too, or enchantments). The irony... I ended up having both hands free WITH a way to see where I'm going and not miss a chest in an otherwise dark corner of dungeons now that I'm not a melee character anymore. However, since the spell is super light on Mana cost, can be obtained for cheap and extremely early on in the game after the intro it allows for all sort of builds in the end. By default it doesn't need a perk anyway, any classes and builds can use it. The only "downside" (if that's one?) is to have to recast it every minute or so (I do think that dual-casting it with both hands make it last a bit longer, and I think there's mods out there that make it light up the room even more, increases the radius of effect, and even the lightning color and intensity, etc).

If only I had been more inquisitive and curious back in my Morrowind and Oblivion days... heh (I'm sure there's a similar or identical Alteration type spell in those games too that I just wasn't aware of that I could have used). Seriously, screw those torches, had enough with that crap.

Edit: Actually, now I remember one item I did find in Oblivion, it was a ring but I forget its name. The ring would illuminate the area around you, but I remember hating it since it would radiate an ugly bright green light everywhere (on all textures, walls, furniture, windows, floor, everywhere I was looking at received a sudden green tint on it; horrible). I remember using it for a few ruins and eventually getting rid of it and going back to my still-hated torches simply because the light provided by the fire was more pleasant to the eye (even though the ring in question did have a much larger radius than a torch had).
 
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BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
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Lo and behold, one of the first Spell Tome I got my hands on was none other than a Novice level spell called Candlelight. It's available from that mage guy in the castle of Whiterun (Dragonsreach if I recall correctly), he sells that tome. It turns out that Candlelight is better in every possible way. It's an 'orb' hovering above your head, lighting up the immediately area around you. It lasts about a minute by default, and can be increased in duration with perks I think (and maybe potions too, or enchantments). The irony... I ended up having both hands free WITH a way to see where I'm going and not miss a chest in an otherwise dark corner of dungeons now that I'm not a melee character anymore.
I went through the same thing. It is challenging to have limited numbers of torches and cool having the fear of being trapped underground in the dark in the back of your mind when your last torch runs out, but it's also simply not that enjoyable if you're playing 2-handed (sword & shield / Greatsword / bows, etc) character and have to swap every... single... time... you fight something. For those builds, magic illumination has been the trick all along. Personally, I also find it unrealistic / annoying to hold a torch in front of your face blinding yourself at night (instead of above your head or to the side just out of your vision cone). For Oblivion, there's also a Light Spell Recolor mod that can recolor the illumination spells to other colors or even mimick a torch. Skyrim has similar mods like Wearable Lanterns or turning Khajit's Night Eye into an unlimited toggle instead of a "spell".
 
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bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
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Another option is to choose a race with night vision. You might also be capable of using the enchanting system to make an item with it built in.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
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RE: Torches.

Morrowind's torches were relatively easy to find as many traders had them and they could be removed from a lot of dungeons. The main issue was their relatively high weight which quickly added up if you wanted to carry a lot of spares. This makes Azura's Ring really nice.

Oblivion's torches couldn't be purchased so even the highest level characters still found it worthwhile to search crates, boxes and barrels as there were plenty there. Also they didn't weigh anything so you could carry an infinite amount without penalty.

Skyrim's torches were the hardest to find as no traders had them and most dungeons didn't have them either. Dragonsreach Dungeon was the best source as they'd respawn immediately on exit. The interesting thing is if you holstered them before the timer ran out, it'd reset. So a single torch could be made to last forever.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,201
214
106
Great, all this talk of Elder Scrolls, it made me install Skyrim (SE). I'll get myself the Unofficial Patch, SkyUI (essentials) and a few mods to run the game as light and nearly-vanilla as possible and just mess around in my favorite locales. Not sure if it's the same for everyone who played Skyrim here but Riverwood feels like home, I'll just stay around and chop some wood for the mill guy.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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I'm really tempted to reinstall one or more of them, but besides my giant backlog of unplayed games there's also the New California prequel massive mod for Fallout New Vegas.

I need a clone army or a way to skip sleeping to catch up on my gaming backlog :(
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
I've finished this Morrowind play-through. The tactic of only training non-level-up skills worked out well, and I've already planned the same tactic in my next Oblivion play-through.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,310
2,766
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If you want, i have tons of criticism for TES. It doesnt follow the canon for RPG games, and as i was raised on milk and D&D, anything that's not D&D is bad.

1. The inherent problem of making a 3D game.
Fights in dnd are conducted by the character, fights in tes are conducted by the player. In classic rpgs, the stats of the character are the only thing that should affect a fight - to maintain the power-based-on-level mechanic.
2. Tes HP are soft
It's far too easy to recover health. This is a serious problem, in classic rpgs each fight is one of a sequence, making the whole dungeon/module/adventure more complex with the need to manage healing, spells and hp.
By extension,
2b. Death/ Failure isnt scary.
3. Item and monster scaling breaks the immersion.
4. Some writing choices are a bit silly.
5. Too much versatility in character design. It's good to have class limits, as it forces players to cooperate and to find creative solutions.

It's still a fun bunch of games, but nowhere near as challenging (and by extension, also engrossing) as any ol' classic dnd game.

Note:
D&D knew full well that archery was OP and nerfed it into uselessness from day1. D&D was created by keeping in mind that rules must be designed for the fun of the players, NOT for realism.
Later edition veered more towards semi-realiatic simulation, and the game became worse because of it.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
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If you want, i have tons of criticism for TES. It doesnt follow the canon for RPG games, and as i was raised on milk and D&D, anything that's not D&D is bad. It's still a fun bunch of games, but nowhere near as challenging (and by extension, also engrossing) as any ol' classic dnd game
I sure love (and still play) the old BG / ID / NWN too, but I didn't think the Elder Scrolls setting had anything to do with D&D / Forgotten Realms and therefore didn't feel the need to "fit"? In my experience Elder Scrolls are best played for what they are. If you play Morrowind expecting "2002 Skyrim" or Skyrim expecting "1st person Baldur's Gate", you're obviously going to be disappointed. Each game has it's own quirkiness and that's all part of the fun in working out. Any dislikes, eg, auto health regen or monster scaling can be modded to suit taste, which is by far the real strength of the game. Dragon Age Origins and Divinity Original Sin are other ones that aren't "pure D&D" (and the latter isn't even RTwP) but played for what they are, they have very solid mechanics. If there's one thing we need more of for RPG's, it's variety.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,310
2,766
126
In my experience Elder Scrolls are best played for what they are.
Yes.
And also no.
Yes to everything you said, but i miss the difficulty that was in every game in the 80s. To me, overcoming that difficulty *is* the game, and you as a game designer are free to change the UI, make it fps or turn-based, 2d, 3d, managerial, in space or in the middleages, comical or horror, with robots or dinosaurs, but whatever you do it's gotta be hard... the keyword is "challenging".
I am ready and willing to forgive any change to the formula as long as the game challenges me as a player.

Just to be clear, im not saying "it doesnt follow the dnd formula, therefore BAD"; im saying, as rpg players and DMs, we've struggled for years to find a formula that works, because simulating reality aint easy. You're welcome to improve on it as you want, but keep in mind that it's very easy to fall into bad mechanics design. Be wise and follow the advice of those who tried before you.
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,310
2,766
126
New post because walloftext

The stuff i grew up with:
Elite - med hard
Lemmings - hard
Doom - hard
Wipeout - omfgbbq ridiculously hard
Quake - hard
...
Mass Effect - never died once
Skyrim - died a few times taking on trolls and giants at lev 1, even killed a daedra with a starting character
Oblivion - didnt die once in 2 playthroughs

Somehow we completely pussified awesome games like Metal Gear and Tekken to change from challenges to "interactive entertainment".
Beating a cabinet arcade in my days was an accomplishment worthy of note, but you talk to people who've played a game made in the last 20 years, and EVERYONE has beaten it.

Dev companies spent money on making that content and by jove! they'll make sure everyone sees it. Thats because they are investors and not artists, they do not consume the product they themselves produce.

This is what i dont like. Im not against first person view or being able to cast spells while wearing armour, im against having lost the very core of the games i loved.

Obligatory IF QUAKE WAS DONE TODAY link
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
The Elder Scrolls are more like ARPGs in that dice rolls/stats matter as much as real-time player skill. But that doesn’t make them shallow games. Far from it.

They have a massive amount of depth with the stats / alchemy / spells / crafting / enchanting / multiple path quests. With Oblivion alone I studied the leveling and stats system for three days before even starting my first game.

As for difficulty, move the slider far right and I guarantee you won’t think they're easy. Oblivion in particular requires highly specialized tactics and constant perfect level-ups to survive that situation. In comparison I find Quake rather easy on nightmare difficulty.
 
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BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
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Somehow we completely pussified awesome games like Metal Gear and Tekken to change from challenges to "interactive entertainment".
I grew up with the same list too and could probably add a few more (Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines, etc) and I totally agree about the dumbing down of modern games (that's partly due to "casual audience", and partly to fit controllers where aiming skill / muscle memory can't be replaced with auto-aim so instead it's been half-"replaced" behind "grind2unlock" substitute mechanics (which itself is liked by devs because it has the added 'bonus' of cheap game-time padding through repetition vs more content)). OTOH, Elder Scrolls games can also be modded to be made harder. From playing with enemy damage scaling to more involved "survival" mods like Frostfall that make weather / hunger, etc, impact you. It may be a case of playing with them until you find a combination that has more "bite".

Obligatory IF QUAKE WAS DONE TODAY link
LOL! So true. Despite it's popularity, I find even Doom (2016) is still well behind Doom 1-2 for simultaneous monster encounter conut or kills/minute. Again, done mostly for cross-platform for controllers (fewer more bullet spongy enemies + micro-cutscenes / cinematics = fewer fast turns = much simpler & more 'padding' for 'slow thumb-scroll' controllers to turn vs fast successive 'wrist-flicks' of mice).
 
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