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POLL: Katrina and the response. Vote your opinion.

ToeJam13

Senior member
Please keep discussion to a minimum since multiple other threads have been opened in P&N about these various subjects. However, if you feel an answer is not listed, please voice it.
 
global warming had zero effect on it. 1979 saw the worst typhoon ever in history. that was 26 years ago. it made katrina look like a cloud fart. sh!t happens and so do natural disasters. its just another message that nature isn't under our control.

and IIRC category 5 hurricane levees have to rise 25+ feet above sea level. since new orleans is something like -15 feet, they would've had to raise the levees a ridiculous amount...might be wrong on that one but if im right, new orleans was screwed no matter what they did.
 
You could change the "Should we raze New Orleans in order to raise the hight of the city above current levee hights?" poll to: "What should we do about New Orleans?" with options like: rebuilding as is but raise the levees, raise the entire city, move the city to higher ground, build it like venice, etc.
 
Originally posted by: MoPHo
global warming had zero effect on it. 1979 saw the worst typhoon ever in history. that was 26 years ago. it made katrina look like a cloud fart.

I don't think GW's effects is linear. GW's effects is definitely slightly >0 though although there are many other factors + or - to consider.

For example, consider this:

Drought Cycles and Hurricane Cycles; CBS Hot Air Watch

Cooler Heads Coalition
May 17, 2000

Drought Cycles and Hurricane Cycles

University of New Mexico scientist Louis Scuderi, studying tree ring data in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado, has identified a 72 year drought cycle in the region according to an AP article of April 29th. The last such drought occurred in the 1950s, leading Scuderi to believe that another is imminent in the 2020s.

Although the cause of the drought cycle is still unknown, a good bet would be climactic oscillators, similar to the El Niño and La Niña effects, only operating over this longer timespan. Scientists believe that many of these oscillators may exist, effecting temperature and climate significantly. Naturally, the longer the period of an oscillator, the more difficult it is to detect.

According to hurricane expert Dr. William Gray at Colorado State University, we should see an increase in storm activity over the next 20 years. The storms are expected to cause 5 to 10 times the amount of damage on the Gulf and Atlantic Coasts than previously experienced, due to the massive increase in population and development along these coastlines.

The hurricane activity of the next 20 years should resemble the period that began in the late 1920s and lasted through the 1940s. The increase is due to higher salinity content in the Atlantic Ocean, which alters its currents and increases average ocean temperatures, fueling more storms. Gray emphasizes that this is a cyclical trend and has nothing to do with global warming (CNN, April 22, 2000).


Of course, when he said this has nothing to do with GW, he was referring to the hurricane cycle itself. GW occurs much more slowly; effects hardly visible in our lifetimes.
 
Your second question about the Mississippi River levee system is off. If I'm correct, the levees that broke are on Lake Ponchatrain.
 
Originally posted by: gooseman
Your second question about the Mississippi River levee system is off. If I'm correct, the levees that broke are on Lake Ponchatrain.


You are correct. Question updated.

Originally posted by: MillionaireNextDoor
You could change the "Should we raze New Orleans in order to raise the hight of the city above current levee hights?" poll to: "What should we do about New Orleans?" with options like: rebuilding as is but raise the levees, raise the entire city, move the city to higher ground, build it like venice, etc.

Noted.
 
Originally posted by: MoPHo
global warming had zero effect on it. 1979 saw the worst typhoon ever in history. that was 26 years ago. it made katrina look like a cloud fart. sh!t happens and so do natural disasters. its just another message that nature isn't under our control.

and IIRC category 5 hurricane levees have to rise 25+ feet above sea level. since new orleans is something like -15 feet, they would've had to raise the levees a ridiculous amount...might be wrong on that one but if im right, new orleans was screwed no matter what they did.

haven't been reading National Geographic, have you? you realize they predicted this one year ago and just recently had an article that basically said florida can expect to get pounded from now on?

like any disaster, big ones are going to occur eventually no matter what the world's conditions are, but does the fact that the south has been pummeled over and over again in the last few years escape you? remember El Nino? were you paying attention when heat records were being destroyed this summer?

it's like if California was actively breaking off into the ocean before our eyes, but with only a bunch of mag 6-7 quakes, one after the other, and you were like "well, none of these are as big as San Francisco's big one 100 years ago, so clearly California is not sliding into the ocean." get a grip, man.

 
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: MoPHo
global warming had zero effect on it. 1979 saw the worst typhoon ever in history. that was 26 years ago. it made katrina look like a cloud fart. sh!t happens and so do natural disasters. its just another message that nature isn't under our control.

and IIRC category 5 hurricane levees have to rise 25+ feet above sea level. since new orleans is something like -15 feet, they would've had to raise the levees a ridiculous amount...might be wrong on that one but if im right, new orleans was screwed no matter what they did.

haven't been reading National Geographic, have you? you realize they predicted this one year ago and just recently had an article that basically said florida can expect to get pounded from now on?

like any disaster, big ones are going to occur eventually no matter what the world's conditions are, but does the fact that the south has been pummeled over and over again in the last few years escape you? remember El Nino? were you paying attention when heat records were being destroyed this summer?

it's like if California was actively breaking off into the ocean before our eyes, but with only a bunch of mag 6-7 quakes, one after the other, and you were like "well, none of these are as big as San Francisco's big one 100 years ago, so clearly California is not sliding into the ocean." get a grip, man.

Hurricane forecasters will be the FIRST to tell you that hurricane seasons rise and fall in cycles that are decades long. We just came out of a low cycle.

That the global warming fanatics have glommed onto this very natural cycle is scandalous.
 
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resourc...ack/2004-08-20-hurricane-answers_x.htm

Q: Why have so many hurricanes hit land this year?

A: The quick answer is just bad luck. A more complete answer, is that the unusual run of hurricane good luck the USA had been enjoying since 1995 ended in 2004.

Back in 2000 when I was working with Dr. Bob Sheets on our book, which was published in 2001, Hurricane Watch: Forecasting the Deadliest Storms on Earth, I talked with William Gray of Colorado State University. Gray is best known to the public for his forecasts of what each hurricane season should bring. This is just one aspect of his work. He was among the first, if not the first, scientist, to see and study links between global climate patterns and hurricanes. (Related story: Top expert: No more major hurricanes)

He was one of the first scientists to study the cycles that Atlantic Basin hurricanes run in. During some decades-long periods, such as from the 1940s into the mid-1960s, many more hurricanes, especially strong hurricanes, form than during other decades, such as from the late 1960s until 1995.

What he told me In late 2000 is included in Chapter 11 of our book. In brief, Gray noted that since a cycle of more hurricanes began in 1995, fewer major ? Category 3, 4, and 5 ? hurricanes had hit the USA that you would expect based on the past. He pointed out that from 1900 through 2000, we know of 221 major hurricanes over the Atlantic Ocean, Caribbean Sea, and Gulf of Mexico. Of these about one-third hit the USA.

From 1995 to 2,000 only three of the 23 major hurricanes that formed hit the USA: Opal in 1995, Fran in 1996 and Bret in 1999. Based on the past, the odds would be that six or seven would have hit during these years. Now, three more have hit, all this year and all in Florida: Charley, Frances, and Jeanne.

If you look at the odds, based on history, even with this year's three major hurricanes hitting, the USA is still running behind the long-term odds.

All of these hurricanes are no surprise to those who keep up, even casually, with what's known and being learned about hurricanes.

In other words, don't fall for the global warming fanatic's hype. Freaking out over a hurricane hitting the east or gulf coast is just plain silly. It's perfectly natural.

 
Originally posted by: MoPHo
global warming had zero effect on it. 1979 saw the worst typhoon ever in history. that was 26 years ago. it made katrina look like a cloud fart. sh!t happens and so do natural disasters. its just another message that nature isn't under our control.

and IIRC category 5 hurricane levees have to rise 25+ feet above sea level. since new orleans is something like -15 feet, they would've had to raise the levees a ridiculous amount...might be wrong on that one but if im right, new orleans was screwed no matter what they did.

Yea while it's true that they weren't rated for Cat 5 hurricanes, it's not the fact the water spilled over that was a problem, it's that the wall failed. I can understand if water spilled over and then flooded the city but the city was pretty dry until the levees broke and thats what caused hell to break loose and not the fact water spilled OVER the levees.
 
A big hurricane is a big hurricane... If you choose to live under sea level, best of luck to you. Its easy to make choices, but its tough to live with the negative consequences of our choices now isn't it?
 
Originally posted by: plaidfro
A big hurricane is a big hurricane... If you choose to live under sea level, best of luck to you. Its easy to make choices, but its tough to live with the negative consequences of our choices now isn't it?


Agreed. The coastal Netherlands are slowing being raised through a massive government project to get the country above sea levels. The US coastal south should look to duplicate such efforts, too.
 
Good poll.

Really bad storm.
Aimed at below sea level city next to huge lake.
Quickly turned into Cat 5 from Cat 3
Mass devestation.
Lots of druggies / gansters left to loot, raise hell.
Slows evacuation.
Sucks.
Poor communication between tiers of Govt.
 
Thanks all for taking part of the vote. Your results are actually quite suprising.

As of 2005-09-12, roughly 82% of pollsters voted that they though that President Bush was not the sole most significant person or organization to hinder the upgrade and maintenance of the New Orleans levee system.

Furthermore, nearly 50% of pollsters blame Governor Kathleen Blanco for the delayed and misexecuted handoff of power from her office to the federal level.

That said, almost 60% of pollsters think that the federal government has been either in-part or fully-part of the cause for the levee?s poor maintenance.

I personally was surprised that more people did not blame the Army Corps of Engineers for the poor maintenance. Some right-wing websites have grilled the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans for pricey pork projects that used funds that could have been used to improve the levee. However, it?s my understanding that the levees were under the jurisdiction of the Corps. You can?t fix your neighbor?s gutters, even if the water is spilling into your yard and you have the money to fix them. I guess the same goes here.
 
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